Everything Derozan

[mcHAPPY]

I got lost somewhere in there.

So if he is getting 28.3% of team plays when on the court to score his 109 points per 100 possessions that would certainly be less impressive when average Joe is scoring 105 points per 100 possessions on 20% of team plays when he is on the court.

DeMar 28.3 possessions per 100 team plays to score 109 points per 100 possessions.
Average Joe 20 possessions per 100 team plays to score 105 points per 100 possessions.


So 8.3 possessions to score an extra 4 points?

[BigCamB]

His shot chart and his shot distribution chart would agree.

**Not sure what has happened but can't see how to get the chart here anymore. Use to be no issue and straightforward.... anyways go to http://stats.nba.com/playerShotchart...zone-mode=zone to check the charts**

I was confused at first when I saw that much green

[Axel]

So if he is getting 28.3% of team plays when on the court to score his 109 points per 100 possessions that would certainly be less impressive when average Joe is scoring 105 points per 100 possessions on 20% of team plays when he is on the court.

DeMar 28.3 possessions per 100 team plays to score 109 points per 100 possessions.
Average Joe 20 possessions per 100 team plays to score 105 points per 100 possessions.


So 8.3 possessions to score an extra 4 points?

I thought, and I could be wrong, that the ORtg is calculated by individual possessions, so usage is irrelevant. Usage tied to PPG would be the stronger case for your post.

[stooley]

I thought, and I could be wrong, that the ORtg is calculated by individual possessions, so usage is irrelevant. Usage tied to PPG would be the stronger case for your post.

This is what I thought as well.

[mcHAPPY]

I thought, and I could be wrong, that the ORtg is calculated by individual possessions, so usage is irrelevant. Usage tied to PPG would be the stronger case for your post.

ORtg is average points per 100 possessions.

Usage is percentage of team plays ran through that player.


I'm not a mathematician I'll be perfectly honest and upfront on that!

[Axel]

ORtg is average points per 100 possessions.

Usage is percentage of team plays ran through that player.


I'm not a mathematician I'll be perfectly honest and upfront on that!

Yeah but the rating is per 100 possessions for that player, or 100 "uses".

Usage% is the amount the player is used within a team's 100 possessions.

It might take Demar 400 team possessions to get his personal 100 possessions.

[stooley]

Yeah but the rating is per 100 possessions for that player, or 100 "uses".

Usage% is the amount the player is used within a team's 100 possessions.

It might take Demar 400 team possessions to get his personal 100 possessions.

Or is the ORTG per 100 team possessions while the player is on the floor?

So the raptors score 109 points per 100 possessions with DD on the floor.

[Axel]

According to Bbref it's points produced per individual possessions.

[Axel]

http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ratings.html

[stooley]

According to Bbref it's points produced per individual possessions.

Interesting, so it's a stat that definitely takes individual efficiency into account.

[mcHAPPY]

Yeah but the rating is per 100 possessions for that player, or 100 "uses".

Usage% is the amount the player is used within a team's 100 possessions.

It might take Demar 400 team possessions to get his personal 100 possessions.

So it would take 353 team possessions for demar to score his 109 points per 100 individual possessions.

It would take average joe 500 team possessions to score his 105 points per 100 individual possessions.


To compare to elite, lebron James would take 331 team possessions to score his 121 points per 100 individual possessions.

So demar contributes .308 points per team possession.

Average joe 0.21

Lebron 0.366


The assumption is average usage is 20.

I'm sure there is an obvious flaw somewhere here.

[stooley]

So it would take 353 team possessions for demar to score his 109 points per 100 individual possessions.

It would take average joe 500 team possessions to score his 105 points per 100 individual possessions.


To compare to elite, lebron James would take 331 team possessions to score his 121 points per 100 individual possessions.

So demar contributes .308 points per team possession.

Average joe 0.21

Lebron 0.366


The assumption is average usage is 20.

I'm sure there is an obvious flaw somewhere here.

I think the original argument went something like this:

- efficiency decreases as usage increases

- 5 players on a court = 1/5 of possessions per player = 20% usage

- average ORTG = 105

- DD above average ORTG

- 3 players on Raptors below average ORTG

- therefore, by reallocating DD's shots, team efficiency decreases

This explains why an above average offensive player would take more shots than his teammates even if his FG% is lower:

- DD is allowing his teammates to play more efficiently

Golden, feel free to clarify, since you're obviously the only person to have read the book.

[DanH]

The suggested trend is that players with higher usage tend to have lower ORTG's, due to the larger volume of shots meaning they are likely taking the more difficult shots (end of clock, contested shots when the offense doesn't generate a good scoring chance).

League wide this does not bear out (almost no correlation between individual ORTG and USG) but team effects could cause that.

Anyway, the idea is that if a player is able to sustain a league average ORTG at above average USG, then they are an effective offensive player, as if they had a lower USG, their efficiency would theoretically be even higher. In theory an above average offensive option is doing his team a favour by taking as many possessions as possible, driving the overall team offense further above average. So if DD is above average while using an extremely high number of possessions, that's a good thing.

[stooley]

The suggested trend is that players with higher usage tend to have lower ORTG's, due to the larger volume of shots meaning they are likely taking the more difficult shots (end of clock, contested shots when the offense doesn't generate a good scoring chance).

League wide this does not bear out (almost no correlation between individual ORTG and USG) but team effects could cause that.

Could this be because bad players generally aren't given higher USG. An interesting stat would be to look at how players' ORTG changes as their USG does. But even that can be skewed by underlying skill developments.

[mcHAPPY]

My head hurts partly due to the topic partly due to trying to follow along/post on a phone.