Everything Derozan

[stooley]

My initial point was arguing about how PERIMETER players should play. LA is a post. I adapted my argument to discuss how you brought up LA as a comparison, so don't try and say I'm changing the argument.

"ALL Pick and Pop" you say...well for example, in their recent game vs the Lakers, he had 18 shots (19 - 1 heave). Of those 18 shots, 1 was a true pick and pop, 2 were more just 'pops' and he didn't even set the pick...and the other 15 were pure catch and shoot or mainly ISO's out of the post. Seriously, that's the majority of his offense.

Well I don't know how you got that data, but I've read a lot about the lethal Lillard/Aldridge pick and roll/pop play. I also feel like I see it happen a lot when I'm watching Blazers games. (I've seen some super cool charts that RR used to breakdown pre and post Gay team shot selection, does anyone know where to find those?)

I was pointing out how the midrange game can be, and is, used as a deadly weapon, arguing that DD does not necessarily need to move to the 3 or drive to the basket to be successful. Whether or not he's big or small, it can be done.

If we're talking about using those shots to draw more double teams, then yes, I'd agree DD should work on that ability.

[imanshumpert]

My initial point was arguing about how PERIMETER players should play. LA is a post. I adapted my argument to discuss how you brought up LA as a comparison, so don't try and say I'm changing the argument.

"ALL Pick and Pop" you say...well for example, in their recent game vs the Lakers, he had 18 shots (19 - 1 heave). Of those 18 shots, 1 was a true pick and pop, 2 were more just 'pops' and he didn't even set the pick...and the other 15 were pure catch and shoot or mainly ISO's out of the post. Seriously, that's the majority of his offense.

Aldridge isn't "all" pick and pop, but compared to other players he is. This is a somewhat old article (Feb 5th, 2014), but he scores more from the pick and pop than any other player in the league. Your evaluation of one game isn't adequate.

Often, Aldridge creates those mid-range looks by being the pick-and-pop man. He is averaging 5.1 points per game as the pick-and-roll man, most in the league.

http://espn.go.com/blog/statsinfo/ta...arcus-aldridge

Also there's this:



It's from SportsVu, saw it on another site. But as you can see Aldridge uses the pick and roll more than any roll/pop man not named Dirk. Additionally, DeRozan is the 2nd most efficient pick and roll ball-handler in terms of PTS/Poss in the league. Found that to be interesting.

[stooley]

Aldridge isn't "all" pick and pop, but compared to other players he is. This is a somewhat old article (Feb 5th, 2014), but he scores more from the pick and pop than any other player in the league. Your evaluation of one game isn't adequate.

Also there's this:



It's from SportsVu, saw it on another site. But as you can see Aldridge uses the pick and roll more than any roll/pop man not named Dirk. Additionally, DeRozan is the 2nd most efficient pick and roll ball-handler in terms of PTS/Poss in the league. Found that to be interesting.

Damn I was scouring the internets for that kind of stuff before I posted - teach me your magic.

[Joey]

Just to reiterate how wrong it is to say DeRozan should take a few steps back and shoot the 3 instead of the long 2.

If you remove his wing 3s this season (20-88 or 22.7%) the following happens:

1244 points (21.8ppg)
434-957 from the field (45.3%)
30-78 from 3pt line (38.5%)
346-429 from FT (80.7% obviously unchanged)

His TS% would increase to 54.3% with only a slight dip in scoring.

So basically no he shouldn't step back and take more wing threes. Actually if he replaced those wing 3s with more long-twos his TS% would be higher (too lazy to calculate this as well).

I was trying to think of a way to say exactly this ... then you did even better. Thanks Shump!

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Just to reiterate how wrong it is to say DeRozan should take a few steps back and shoot the 3 instead of the long 2.

If you remove his wing 3s this season (20-88 or 22.7%) the following happens:

1244 points (21.8ppg)
434-957 from the field (45.3%)
30-78 from 3pt line (38.5%)
346-429 from FT (80.7% obviously unchanged)

His TS% would increase to 54.3% with only a slight dip in scoring.

So basically no he shouldn't step back and take more wing threes. Actually if he replaced those wing 3s with more long-twos his TS% would be higher (too lazy to calculate this as well).

I think you're missing the point behind this idea.

League-wide, the long 2's are the least efficient shot. Quite often, DeRozan will take a long 2 with a foot on the 3pt line, or barely inside it (and make it, with improving efficiency). Therefore, it seems like his lower 3pt % is much more a mental issue, than it is a mechanical issue. By giving him the benefit of the doubt that he should be able to shoot 3pt shots at least as efficiently as he shoots the long 2's (essentially shooting from just a few inches back), he would score more points on the same number of shots at the same shooting %, if he changed some of those borderline long 2's into 3's. Heck, he'd even be able to score the same amount of points on a lower shooting %, since he'd be scoring 50% more points on each made shot.

[Mr.Z]

Yeah I think demars problem with the 3 is all mental. He's just gotta shoot them more and stop thinking about it.

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[Chr1s1anL]

It's crazy how productive DD is with all the holes in his game. If he just fixes one. His a bonafide superstar


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[Superjudge]

LOL, Just trying everything to get someone to bite aren't you? I guess if I said your attempt was sad it could be considered biting, so hope you get a bit of satisfaction out of it

What?

Its a comment man, thats about it. I think its funny that DD gets diced so much.

[stooley]

What?

Its a comment man, thats about it. I think its funny that DD gets diced so much.

Lebron got diced a LOT more.

It comes with the spotlight.

[3inthekeon]

actually he is way above average from the corners.

Demar from corners: 41.67%
Curry from corners: 39.3%

What is average from the corners? Or anywhere else for that matter?

Shot charts are segmented. Is there any place to look to find what is average from each segment?

[imanshumpert]

I think you're missing the point behind this idea.

League-wide, the long 2's are the least efficient shot. Quite often, DeRozan will take a long 2 with a foot on the 3pt line, or barely inside it. Therefore, it seems like his lower 3pt % is much more a mental issue, than it is a mechanical issue. By giving him the benefit of the doubt that he should be able to shoot 3pt shots at least as efficiently as he shoots the long 2's (essentially shooting from just a few inches back), he would score more points on the same number of shots at the same shooting %, if he changed some of those borderline long 2's into 3's. Heck, he'd even be able to score the same amount of points on a lower shooting %, since he'd be scoring 50% more points on each made shot.

Definitely not missing the point.

His three point shooting might be a mental thing, but it really doesn't matter. The reality is he shoots 22.7% from 3s that aren't from the corners, so there's no logical reason for him to take more of them until he improves his ability to make those shots.

I think generally a few of you are exaggerating the number of long-2s that he takes with his foot on the line. He's usually in the 17-20 foot range when he takes them (Wing/straighaway three is 23.9'). I already pointed out that him shooting these shots at a 42% clip (0.84pps) is much better than him stepping back a few feet and hoisting a three for 0.67pps. It's also easier to get the look from mid-range.

[imanshumpert]

What is average from the corners? Or anywhere else for that matter?

Shot charts are segmented. Is there any place to look to find what is average from each segment?

Yep this website: http://vorped.com/bball/index.php/pl.../2013-2014-REG

[OldSkoolCool]

Just to reiterate how wrong it is to say DeRozan should take a few steps back and shoot the 3 instead of the long 2.

If you remove his wing 3s this season (20-88 or 22.7%) the following happens:

1244 points (21.8ppg)
434-957 from the field (45.3%)
30-78 from 3pt line (38.5%)
346-429 from FT (80.7% obviously unchanged)

His TS% would increase to 54.3% with only a slight dip in scoring.

So basically no he shouldn't step back and take more wing threes. Actually if he replaced those wing 3s with more long-twos his TS% would be higher (too lazy to calculate this as well).

Definitely not missing the point.

Yes you are. Basically what people are trying to say is that one step is the difference between >40% and 22%...that can really only be explained by him being worried about the three point line

Well I don't know how you got that data, but I've read a lot about the lethal Lillard/Aldridge pick and roll/pop play. I also feel like I see it happen a lot when I'm watching Blazers games. (I've seen some super cool charts that RR used to breakdown pre and post Gay team shot selection, does anyone know where to find those?)

I was pointing out how the midrange game can be, and is, used as a deadly weapon, arguing that DD does not necessarily need to move to the 3 or drive to the basket to be successful. Whether or not he's big or small, it can be done.

If we're talking about using those shots to draw more double teams, then yes, I'd agree DD should work on that ability.

I watched the game and made my own data. NBA.com has all the game logs where you can view every single possession of a player if so desired. I just clicked on a random game.

Now it was only one game so the sample size is skewed, but in each of the three PnP situations he was in he scored. (ie 6 points) This coincides with what imanshumpert posted about ppg scored off of PnR situations at 5.1 per game. Considering he is averaging 23.5 ppg, he is only scoring 21.7% of his points off of PnR situations, even though he is involved in them often. So I would still argue that he is still mainly getting his points off of ISO/post possessions. Supported by the numbers and what I have seen from him playing

[CalgaryRapsFan]

Definitely not missing the point.

His three point shooting might be a mental thing, but it really doesn't matter. The reality is he shoots 22.7% from 3s that aren't from the corners, so there's no logical reason for him to take more of them until he improves his ability to make those shots.

I think generally a few of you are exaggerating the number of long-2s that he takes with his foot on the line. He's usually in the 17-20 foot range when he takes them (Wing/straighaway three is 23.9'). I already pointed out that him shooting these shots at a 42% clip (0.84pps) is much better than him stepping back a few feet and hoisting a three for 0.67pps. It's also easier to get the look from mid-range.

Nobody is arguing about what his shooting % are. The point is that he should be able to shoot 3's at a much higher %, given the % he is shooting from 0-2' inside the line. I have no idea how to explain why he drops off so much behind the arc, other than perhaps it being a mental thing or lack of practice (in games).

I'm not ripping on him, I'm actually doing the opposite, in that I think with more in-game attempts from behind the arc he should be able to raise that % and gain confidence (hopefully leading to further % increases). As I stated in my original post, he wouldn't even have to match his % to score the same number of points but, if he were able to accomplish that, he'd exceed his scoring on those long shots by 50%.

You're basing your analysis on his current shooting %, so I totally understand how you reached your conclusion. Even as somebody who has criticized DeRozan's shooting efficiency and lack of 3pt shot in the past, I'm actually giving him the benefit of the doubt that he can raise those %.

I'm also not suggesting he stop shooting mid-long 2's or even all long 2's. However, it would benefit him and the team if he could make a minor modification, to turn some of the longest 2's into 3's. For example, at least a few times a game (per my eye test at least), he executes an elbow catch-and-shoot from on the 3pt line or within 1' of it and/or he executes a pull-up shot from a similar position off his own dribble. All he needs to do is position himself a foot deeper and suddenly he puts himself in a position to improve his efficiency further.

[stooley]

I watched the game and made my own data. NBA.com has all the game logs where you can view every single possession of a player if so desired. I just clicked on a random game.

Now it was only one game so the sample size is skewed, but in each of the three PnP situations he was in he scored. (ie 6 points) This coincides with what imanshumpert posted about ppg scored off of PnR situations at 5.1 per game. Considering he is averaging 23.5 ppg, he is only scoring 21.7% of his points off of PnR situations, even though he is involved in them often. So I would still argue that he is still mainly getting his points off of ISO/post possessions. Supported by the numbers and what I have seen from him playing

1. Nice.

2. Well you mentioned that LA's mid-range game adds more to his team's success than Demar's because Aldridge performs more isos and post ups, whereas Demar generally gets the ball coming off of picks.

To counter that argument, I may have overstated to what extent LA relies on the pick and roll/pop. Nevertheless, Lamarcus Aldridge scores more points than any other player in the league on pick and pops, and is one of the top 5 most frequently used roll men. So I don't think your point holds any water there.

Either way, he's doing a lot more of those two things than Demar is.