i love this thread thank you multipaul finally a reason to inflate my posts.
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i love this thread thank you multipaul finally a reason to inflate my posts.
Well, first and foremost, I go by watching a player. Since we're talking about big men, this is what I look for. Does he give up deep position, or stop the offensive player from getting where he wants to go? Does he work hard on that end of the floor? Does he stay focused? Does he move his feet or try and play defense with his hands, instead? Does he keep his man in front of him? Does he fall for a lot of fakes or does he play smart? Basically, does he make it difficult for his man to get good looks at the basket? And does he rotate when and where he is supposed to? Does he box out his man and get tough defensive rebounds to prevent the other team from getting second chance points? Does he protect the middle?DunkinDerozan wrote:
I look at advanced stats to basically confirm or contradict what I see on the court. Stats should never be used to create an opinion. Only to back up an opinion or make one question it.
Blocks and steals are probably the last thing I look at, because they can be incredibly deceiving, as I discussed earlier. Lots of players have averaged good bpg and spg without playing good defense.
And by the way, when you claim someone is too scared to respond, that's an attempt to insult them.
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PnR defense is probably the most important aspect of defense in the NBA game. Bargnani is one of the worst PnR defenders I've ever seen. It's almost a guaranteed high percentage look when your two PnR defenders are Bargnani and Calderon.
No Bargs would fit in alot better he can chuck up 30 shots and score 20 points and play shit Defence.
bargnani is a lazy heartless punk, when he is motivated he can do alot of things i remember a close game last year vs the wiz where he blocked 4 shots in a row and got every rebound in sight.... but sometimes he goes in the game with a horrible mentality like to say " is this game over yet ? i got hot date tonight"
demar wont be our first option nor franchise player i think of him as a complimentary player i think we still need to search for that guy via draft.
he tries ....... and fails miserably on both ends each and every time. Bustani !!!
First off, Bargs started 68% of the games he played in his sophmore season (nba.com).
Secondly, I fully expect us to be a fairly bad team (doomed) for the next few seasons regardless of DD does. Anyone who thinks this team is going to contend next season is deluding themselves, I'm personally hoping we can maybe squeak in at 8th and I think I'm being super optimistic. It we make Demar our #1 scorer and build around him and Ed I think we can expect to wait quite a while before we would be considered a threat to the title since both have a tonne of developing to do.
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Sorry to butt in your lively discussion here, i know we've had our back and forths in the past Tim and we've always come to terms in the end but i always notice you preach of defense as an integral part of the game and which i acknowledge, but you havent really defined "good defense" concretely. I dont think a definition of a good defensive player is "one who plays good defense". A block or shot block is clearly defined as "defensive player legally deflects a field goal attempt from an offensive player". And a steal is defined as "defensive player legally causes a turnover by his positive, aggressive action." A bad defensive play only results in 2 situations, a foul and a basket by the offensive team. Clearly, a block and steal constitute "good defense", i dont know how else you can quantify that.
I guess ill just help you out, a good defensive player or playing good defense is the ability to keep the offensive player infront of you, preventing him from scoring the basketball. I dont think Bargnani, Calderon, or Demar are bad defensive players per say, they are able to keep their man infront of them most of the time, what makes them "bad" is the Raptors is a bad defensive team, as a whole. Theyre unable to switch on screens, or play help defense. Even the best players or best "defensive" players as you point them out do get beat off the dribble from time to time, but what "masks" this fact is other players on their team are able to switch or provide help defense at appropriate times. The Raptors, most of the time, can not.
Like i always say, put Bargs beside a solid, defensive Center and he'll probably, and i say it again, PROBABLY, will be alright. Dirk has Tyson, Garnett had Perk, Bosh has Anthony, so on and so forth. But it doesnt stop there, you need to get a solid SF too SG and PG.
I'm not saying that the actual block or steal is bad, but the fact that someone gets steals or blocks doesn't make them a good defensive player. If someone gambles a lot to get steals, then that's bad defense. And just because someone blocks 2 shots a game, doesn't mean they are playing good defense the rest of the time.
And you may have missed my last post where I went into more detail about what a good defensive player does.
As for Bargnani, I don't think there's any way you can call Bargnani anything but a poor defensive player. He doesn't put in a consistent effort, too often gives deep position, gets beat far too much, doesn't rotate well and doesn't seem to know where to be a lot of the time. He gives up too many offensive rebounds, doesn't get enough defensive rebounds, doesn't play the pick and roll well at all, will either over commit or under commit when he has to help. The notion that Bargnani is only a poor defensive player because of the system he plays in discounts the fact that neither Amir nor Davis play poor defense despite playing in the same system.
I think having a poor defensive team can highlight a players poor defense, but anyone who knows what to look for can see the difference between a decent defender on a bad team and a bad defender on a bad team. It's why I defended Bosh's defense last season when people said he was as bad as Bargnani. It's not that Bosh was a good defender, but he obviously knows what to do most of the time. Effort is not always there but he's not a liability on that end of the court.
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I am the first to hate on the raps and wine and piss vinegar when they suck, cause the raps have cost me a nice stack of cash this season.. but give DD a break, the dudes aloud to have an off game.
Paul I give you props for getting over 105 thread responses man. It's great fodder to put one player down just to prop another. It almost feels like Demar and Andrea are playing in different teams the way you isolate the two.
The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority. - Martin Luther King
Balls, I never knew it was possible to laugh and cringe at the same time but your avatar has made the impossible possible.
I find it amusing how Bargnani can dog it for weeks and you'll step up to bat for him day after day yet all it takes is one bad game by DeMar and you're all over the guy. DeMar DeRozan is progressing faster than Bargnani did and in year two of his career he's making more of an impact than Bargnani did in year two of his career. At the end of the day DeMar is one of the best defenders and scorers on the team and he's only three years removed from high school.
Thank you very much. And this is only his second year. Barg or King Barg or should I say Queen Barg has been her for FIVE years and still haven't figured out how to help the team yet.
Also MultiPaul, I remember my post about Amir having more blocks than Barg had rebounds and you stated that that post so be in the Barg post not the everything raptors. So what gives here?
I find it ironic that you have no problem writing full page upon page upon page of vitriol against Bargs...but...if someone criticizes Demar all hell breaks loose
"How dare ye insult the great Demar"!
I would tend to disagree, unless you can backup your claims of DD's "impact" with facts.
I think he has disappointed, and that all the hype around him blinds you to the facts, as it does to many fans.
This post is about DD, and how when Bargs is not playing, he is disappointing. In a nutshell, he is not a capable enough player without a big-dog like gangster Bargs on the floor
Now that is an intelligent, fact based reply by one of the best moderators in the game, Matt52
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I agree, you are not directly saying that a steal or block is bad, but you are implying it, when you say that a steal or block does not correlate to good defense, when in fact, it does. Youre not saying its bad, but you dont regard it as a good thing either. I do agree with your statement that getting a steal or block does not constitute being a good defensive player, but if you consistently get blocks and steals then you are a good defensive player. i think thats the word youve been missing. What im trying to instill is that steals and blocks are repertoires of a good defensive player. i dont think its coincidental that Howard has been back to back defensive player of the year and him averaging almost 3 blocks a game. although this award is given via media votes, only good defensive players are chosen as candidates for voting. When Artest won it, he avg a career best 2.1 stls, Wallace avg 2blks per game, and Howard 3 blks per game.
I think we've exhausted out arguments on Bargnani, you say he's a poor defender, i say he's just doesnt have the skill to be a good defender. Does he try, i believe so, but he probably is frustrated too that he doesnt have the ability to defend as people expect him to. Is that a liability? most definitely, but i dont regard it as a reason to crucify him. sad and unfair as it may sound but if they want to keep bargnani on the team, they have to mask his "inability" to defend. anyways, enough of Bargs because this is actually a demar thread.
i think people think demar has been a disappointment because of the expectations that was put on him at the start of the season. when bosh left, it may not be that obvious but the reigns was handed on to bargs and what bargs was to bosh before is what demar is now to bargs. and we all know the expectations everybody put on bargs alongside bosh. as per his natural progression goes in the NBA i dont think he's a disappointment but if you consider the "2nd option" tag, i guess i can see why. i for one am guilty of expecting him to average at least 20pts a game, 5 rebs and 5 asts. But that was my expectation, but im happy as to how he is playing now.
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