View Poll Results: Grade Derozan's Season.

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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #841
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I dont agree. If you get a steal or a block, thats already 2 points that youre preventing the other team from getting. if you get 2, then thats 4pts, so on and so forth. Again, just want to remind you the definition of good defense, preventing the opponent from scoring the basketball or committing a foul. I think consistent high steals and blocks output is definitely parallel to being a good defender. If you check the NBA.com statistical leaders, the leaders in steals categories are Paul, Rondo, Westbrook, Kidd, Allen, Manu among others. Same with blocks, at the top of the heap is Bogut, Howard, McGee, Ibaka, Bynum and Amare. And youve attested to this before, that the players named are good defenders. I cant really comment on Michael Williams leading the league in steals. All i can say is he's in really good company, coz John Stockton, Gary Payton, Michael Jordan have all led the leagues in steals at some point in their careers, and these named are regarded as really good defenders. The situations you mentioned, "gambled far too much and was often out of position on defense. Same goes for a lot of shotblockers. They want to block a shot so badly they will often be out of position, be faked out too easily, etc." Arent those part of the game? i mean even the best defenders gamble on steals, try to chase block....its the same as when a good scorer puts himself in a bad predicament when he tries to go for a circus shot, or a rebounder boxing out the wrong guy....i think its all part of the game. i dont think it consistently happens, just something that comes out in the course of a game, which i think is normal. you cant really be saying that michael williams gambled on every defensive scheme he's in and tried to go for the steal everytime. but i cant say for sure coz i didnt see any of his games.

    i dont think thats a fair assessment. scoring is totally different from blocks and steals. you can easily put yourself in a scoring position, but you cant as easily put yourself in a position to steal or block, at least not logically. Anybody can get the ball and try to shoot it every possession, but i dont think any player deemed sane is going to go to each player chasing the ball for a steal or to run to every player who attempts a shot and try to block it. that would just look crazy. And Mike James avg 20pts for the Raps, on 7 of 15 for 47%FG and 44% beyond the arc. nothing wrong with those numbers. 3 of 4 from the line for 84%.

    I agree, i am pleased as well with Demar's performance although i was hoping his numbers would be higher.

    I do think sometimes Multipaul is a little bit over the top, but some posters here do start bash Bargnani threads as well, be it for their own gratification or to spite Multipaul, i think it should be fair for all to post and criticize but accept criticism as well. To each his own, as they say.
    If a guy gets 2 steals a game, but gambles 20 times, allowing his man a clear path to the basket, is that good defense? And if a guy blocks 3 shots a game, but because he's trying to block as many shots as possible, is out of position far too many times, then is that good defense? Steals are good IN CONCERT with good defense. They are not necessarily an indication of good defense. That is what I'm saying.

    3 steals or 3 blocks unto itself has very little difference in the overall score. It's what a players does over the period of the entire game that makes him a good defender or not.

    Let me ask you a question. Who was the better defender in 2005, Bruce Bowen or Gilbert Arenas? Arenas was fourth in the league in steals per game with 2 a game, whereas Bowen only had half that. By the way, Bruce Bowen was on the All-Defensive 1st team.

    In 2009, was Tyrus Thomas a good defender because he blocked more shots than Kevin Garnett?
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  2. #842
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    If you have a good coach then thats not asking much. Its been working fairly well with Dirk, and worked well with Rashard before, both whom i consider poor defensive bigs. Ive seen Dirk being attacked during the San Antonio series i think 2 years ago, when Duncan averaged 25pts on that series against him, but they were still able get past the spurs and move on to the nuggets. Rashard has always been a liability on defense, and same with Turk who had played the 4 spot numerous times in the series against the cavs, boston, then LA but having Howard beside them and Gortat actually "hid" their defensive "inadequacies" as you would say. And the Magic even went as far as the finals with both Turk and Lewis.
    Dirk isn't a bad defensive player. He's not a good one, but he's not a bad one, like Bargnani. And Rashard Lewis was actually a pretty decent team defender, who got overpowered in the post. Look at how the Lakers kept going at Amare last year in the playoffs because of his poor defense.

    Is it POSSIBLE to survive to the Finals with a poor defensive player in your frontcourt? Sure. Anything's possible. But it's so incredibly hard to advance in the playoffs, let alone to the Finals, why on earth do you want to handicap yourself? Bargnani, no matter what he does on offense, is a handicap. Why purposely build your team with a handicap? Bargnani is good on offense, but he's not THAT good. I could see trying to make a go with him if he were averaging 28 ppg efficiently. But he averages in the low 20s and doesn't shoot a very high percentage. If a team is THAT desperate for his offense (as the Raptors are now), then they simply aren't going to be talented enough to make it far in the playoffs. And if a team is good enough to advance in the playoffs, then scoring probably isn't going to be enough of a need to want to risk having Bargnani out on the court very long.
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  3. #843
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    If a guy gets 2 steals a game, but gambles 20 times, allowing his man a clear path to the basket, is that good defense? And if a guy blocks 3 shots a game, but because he's trying to block as many shots as possible, is out of position far too many times, then is that good defense? Steals are good IN CONCERT with good defense. They are not necessarily an indication of good defense. That is what I'm saying.

    3 steals or 3 blocks unto itself has very little difference in the overall score. It's what a players does over the period of the entire game that makes him a good defender or not.

    Let me ask you a question. Who was the better defender in 2005, Bruce Bowen or Gilbert Arenas? Arenas was fourth in the league in steals per game with 2 a game, whereas Bowen only had half that. By the way, Bruce Bowen was on the All-Defensive 1st team.

    In 2009, was Tyrus Thomas a good defender because he blocked more shots than Kevin Garnett?
    Ive already noted this in my previous post. to think a player will gamble 20 times or however many times to get a steal is just not logically possible, unless the coach specifically tells that player, you, got get me as many steals as you can. a player will gamble on defense only once or twice a game, nobody is that dumb to keep running after the player who has the ball. same with blocks. you dont see a player jumping like a kangaroo everytime an opposing player takes a shot. thats just logically impossible.

    A steal or block doesnt have to be in concert with good defense. You can play good defense and not have a steal or block at the end, but it may result in a bad shot or a turnover. But a steal or block is the result of good defense. and thats what ive been trying to pass all along. again, putting it clearer, good defense may not result in a block or steal, but if you get a block or steal that is good defense. so if you consistently get steals or blocks, that means you are doing something successful on the defensive end and that makes you a good defender.

    well between 1 and 3 blocks or 1 and 3 steals is what you typical get in a whole game, but like i said, you have to consistently be getting around the same number of steals or blocks game after game for you to be regarded as a good defender. coz if youre just accounting 1 game of 4 blocks then 0 the next 20 games then yes, i agree, you are not outright a good defender. but not necessarily not getting blocks or steals regards you as a bad defender, thats not our argument here, our argument is if you consistently get steals and blocks on a game to game basis, then yes, you are a good defender.

    the premise of our argument was not who is the "better" defender, it is if a player who gets steals and blocks is a good defender. on your argument on arenas vs. bowen and garnett vs thomas, i agree bowen and garnett are the better defenders, but that doesnt make arenas and thomas bad defenders. they are good defenders, not just in the way that garnett and bowen defend.

  4. #844
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    i've heard the same thing.

    but the game is call of duty.
    Who doesn't like Call of duty? and Derozan does work on his game in the gym everyday, its a proven fact. Btw your pic looks Fcked up

  5. #845
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    Who doesn't like Call of duty? and Derozan does work on his game in the gym everyday, its a proven fact. Btw your pic looks Fcked up
    fuck call of duty. that shit is for nerds.


  6. #846
    Raptors Republic Starter Deadallus's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    I tend to disagree with that. Demar has been getting starters minutes since day 1, and is still lacking defensively, prone to turnovers (particularly in clutch situations), has regressed in attacking the basket and has reverted to jump shooting (albeit at a fairly decent clip). With this type of metamorphosis should come some outside shooting, but he has no 3 ball game like many 2 guards do, and should.

    So, I don't think BC saw him as a "project" like Bargs, nor do I think he is meeting expectations.
    Are you refering to Demar or Bargs with these comments?

    Also if you ever listened to what scouts, pundits and even the Raptors organization said about Demar when he was drafted, he was most definately a project. People said he was very raw and athletic but needed to improve his jumpshot and tighten his handle. The turnovers in crunch time is more a product of lack of experience in those situations than lack or talent.

    Your really gonna kill him when Bargnani, 3 years his senior in the NBA, is just as suspect in crunch time (remeember the 3OT game in London). And not to mention he hasn't improved at all since he arrived in the league. He still can't rebound or defend which were knocks against him 5 years ago. Meanwhile Demar's jumper and handle have drastically improved. Not to mention Bargs' improved offense is simply a by-product of being thrust into the spotlight as the main man on offense. His points are up 4.6/game from last year because he is averaging 3.9 more shots per game but his efficiency has dropped from 47%FG to 44.8%. Not to menton 2.1 of those 4.6 points are from free throws, which is the only part of his game (getting to the rim)that has slightly improved. But again this improvement is more the result of increased touches.
    Deadallus

  7. #847
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Deadallus wrote: View Post
    Are you refering to Demar or Bargs with these comments?

    Also if you ever listened to what scouts, pundits and even the Raptors organization said about Demar when he was drafted, he was most definately a project. People said he was very raw and athletic but needed to improve his jumpshot and tighten his handle. The turnovers in crunch time is more a product of lack of experience in those situations than lack or talent.

    Your really gonna kill him when Bargnani, 3 years his senior in the NBA, is just as suspect in crunch time (remeember the 3OT game in London). And not to mention he hasn't improved at all since he arrived in the league. He still can't rebound or defend which were knocks against him 5 years ago. Meanwhile Demar's jumper and handle have drastically improved. Not to mention Bargs' improved offense is simply a by-product of being thrust into the spotlight as the main man on offense. His points are up 4.6/game from last year because he is averaging 3.9 more shots per game but his efficiency has dropped from 47%FG to 44.8%. Not to menton 2.1 of those 4.6 points are from free throws, which is the only part of his game (getting to the rim)that has slightly improved. But again this improvement is more the result of increased touches.
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    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 10:27 PM.

  8. #848
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    first off, bargs started 68% of the games he played in his sophmore season (nba.com).
    Secondly, i fully expect us to be a fairly bad team (doomed) for the next few seasons regardless of dd does. Anyone who thinks this team is going to contend next season is deluding themselves, i'm personally hoping we can maybe squeak in at 8th and i think i'm being super optimistic. It we make demar our #1 scorer and build around him and ed i think we can expect to wait quite a while before we would be considered a threat to the title since both have a tonne of developing to do.
    nsn

  9. #849
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Ive already noted this in my previous post. to think a player will gamble 20 times or however many times to get a steal is just not logically possible, unless the coach specifically tells that player, you, got get me as many steals as you can. a player will gamble on defense only once or twice a game, nobody is that dumb to keep running after the player who has the ball. same with blocks. you dont see a player jumping like a kangaroo everytime an opposing player takes a shot. thats just logically impossible.

    A steal or block doesnt have to be in concert with good defense. You can play good defense and not have a steal or block at the end, but it may result in a bad shot or a turnover. But a steal or block is the result of good defense. and thats what ive been trying to pass all along. again, putting it clearer, good defense may not result in a block or steal, but if you get a block or steal that is good defense. so if you consistently get steals or blocks, that means you are doing something successful on the defensive end and that makes you a good defender.

    well between 1 and 3 blocks or 1 and 3 steals is what you typical get in a whole game, but like i said, you have to consistently be getting around the same number of steals or blocks game after game for you to be regarded as a good defender. coz if youre just accounting 1 game of 4 blocks then 0 the next 20 games then yes, i agree, you are not outright a good defender. but not necessarily not getting blocks or steals regards you as a bad defender, thats not our argument here, our argument is if you consistently get steals and blocks on a game to game basis, then yes, you are a good defender.

    the premise of our argument was not who is the "better" defender, it is if a player who gets steals and blocks is a good defender. on your argument on arenas vs. bowen and garnett vs thomas, i agree bowen and garnett are the better defenders, but that doesnt make arenas and thomas bad defenders. they are good defenders, not just in the way that garnett and bowen defend.
    Just because you get a block or a steal doesn't mean you were playing good defense. A block can be a result of playing good defense (for example rotating properly and protecting the lane) or bad defense (trying to block everything, whether they get out of position to do so or not) and you can get a steal as a result of good defense (staying in front of your man and moving your feet while deflecting a pass) or bad defense (gambling). Usually the guys that gets steals and blocks from bad defense play on bad teams, which is why you take numbers like that from a player on a bad team with a grain of salt.

    An example. I play basketball often with a guy who is a great shotblocker, but is not a good defender. He absolutely loves to block shots, so will try and jump after anything close to him, and he gets a lot of blocks. He also allows a lot of easy baskets because he falls for a lot of fakes, gets himself out of position a lot and often lets a man drive by him in order to block him from behind. Sometimes this results in a block, sometimes a layup. If he, instead of trying to block as many shots as he does, would simply play good solid defense, move his feet and use his length, rather than his jumping ability, to disrupt the shot, it would be a lot harder to score on him.

    When I'm bringing the ball up the court, I'm a good enough ball handler that it's rare I'll turn the ball over, but that doesn't stop a lot of guys from trying to pressure me and gamble to try and steal the ball. What usually happens when a defender does this is I will use his gamble to drive by him and either go for a layup or draw another defender to give my teammate a good shot. Instead of trying to go for a steal, what the defender should have done is simply moved his feet to stay in front of me. It might not have resulted in a steal, but it also, more than likely, wouldn't have resulted in an open shot for my team.

    So in these last two cases, going for a block or a steal was a bad thing.

    If you chuck up a dozen half court shots, just because you make one of them doesn't mean it was a good shot. It was still a bad shot, it just went in.
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  10. #850
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    nsn
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    NO MORONS NEEDED....

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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    So who watched the Clilps game? I gotta tell you, I knew we would lose. We had no closer. With King Bargs on the sidelines, who is gonna step up?

    Check the stats- Demar was chucking bricks and got annihilated by must-see BG.

    Is THIS our future "franchise" guy. All the Bargs haters take notice, Double D proved he's not there yet. This team will be in rough shape next year if he is our #1 option. Yikes!
    Your lucky you can hide behind Raptors Republic to voice your opinion, because if you said this shit to people who were physically visible, you would get beat up.

  12. #852
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Nick wrote: View Post
    Your lucky you can hide behind Raptors Republic to voice your opinion, because if you said this shit to people who were physically visible, you would get beat up.
    easyyy brooo .... why so seriousss?

  13. #853
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    Quote Nick wrote: View Post
    Your lucky you can hide behind Raptors Republic to voice your opinion, because if you said this shit to people who were physically visible, you would get beat up.
    beat up for having an opinion? about a GAME? how nazi of you.

    multi's had much more inflammatory posts than that... yet you pick a very vanilla one to comment on?

  14. #854
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    I would tend to disagree, unless you can backup your claims of DD's "impact" with facts.
    I think he has disappointed, and that all the hype around him blinds you to the facts, as it does to many fans.
    So what are you most disappointed about? Is it the 10% higher he is shooting from the field than Bargnani did in his second season in the league?

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    Quote Nick wrote: View Post
    Your lucky you can hide behind Raptors Republic to voice your opinion, because if you said this shit to people who were physically visible, you would get beat up.
    In the aim of fairness, how bout you personal message me your thoughts and we can arrange a time to meet. I will state my opinion to your face and we will see what you do.

    In the meantime, since you have nothing to say about this thread, why post here?

  16. #856
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    So what are you most disappointed about? Is it the 10% higher he is shooting from the field than Bargnani did in his second season in the league?
    Disappointed in:

    -poor defense
    -cant keep his man in front of him
    -poor decision making in clutch situations
    -lack of drive to the basket
    -no 3pt shot (although to his credit, he realizes this and doesnt throw up bricks like Weems)
    -didn't win the dunk off 2 yrs in a row

    I'm not saying I don't like DD. I'm just saying I think the expecations were higher.

  17. #857
    Raptors Republic All-Star e2thed's Avatar
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    Hey, if we get rid of Bargs and Jose we take off 4.5 turnovers per game.

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    Quote e2thed wrote: View Post
    Hey, if we get rid of Bargs and Jose we take off 4.5 turnovers per game.
    And lose about 30 pts!

  19. #859
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    In the aim of fairness, how bout you personal message me your thoughts and we can arrange a time to meet. I will state my opinion to your face and we will see what you do.

    In the meantime, since you have nothing to say about this thread, why post here?
    calm down boys....no reason to get nasty....
    Apollo, i think you need to get in the middle of this....

  20. #860
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    calm down boys....no reason to get nasty....
    Apollo, i think you need to get in the middle of this....
    them's fighting words.

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