Everything Derozan

[draps]

If u can't see why demar would be better on gs, you are blind. A legit superstar, shooting at the 1,3,4, an offensive system, and a more uptempo transition style of play. He would have it a whole lot easier

[Axel]

I disagree. While it is true that DeRozan's shooting percentages on open shots aren't good, I think it'd be worth it to do a deeper analysis of what situations those shots are being taken in.

I don't see how DeRozan wouldn't thrive on a team like the Warriors that has several offensive weapons, depth, a legitimate superstar and an excellent offensive system. He's not quite as good as Klay, and doesn't have the same type of skill-set but why wouldn't they be able to use him in a way that maximizes the skills that he DOES have?

I mean Harrison Barnes has barely changed his shot selection on that team from last season (if anything it's gotten worse because he's taking more long twos and less shots from 3-10ft, but because the team improved its offensive system so much this year his efficiency has skyrocketed (almost +10% TS%), Klay also saw a significant jump in efficiency (he was already efficient but jumped 3.6 TS% this year).

Some of you guys are trying to apply absolutes to DeRozan when you really never should try to apply absolutes to anything in basketball or life for that matter. You're saying he can't be a top option... but he also wouldn't improve as a second option... and he wouldn't play better if he was in a better offensive system... and he can't be a role player because he needs the ball too much... so really why is DeRozan in the NBA then?

Think you've got to be a bit more reasonable in your evaluations and at least realize that the way DeRozan is currently playing/choosing to play/being forced to play/being asked to play or whatever it is, is not really conducive to him playing efficient basketball.

How many different situations are there for "open shots"? You're either open or you're not.

I think DD would struggle in the sense that the GSW (and many other top) offence is primarily predicated on 3 point shooting and ball movement. Since DD doesn't excel in either area, there is legitimate concerns over his fit. Spacing issues, stagnant ball movement, and poor shot selection would dramatically alter the effectiveness of the Warriors offence.

[JWash]

How many different situations are there for "open shots"? You're either open or you're not.

I think DD would struggle in the sense that the GSW (and many other top) offence is primarily predicated on 3 point shooting and ball movement. Since DD doesn't excel in either area, there is legitimate concerns over his fit. Spacing issues, stagnant ball movement, and poor shot selection would dramatically alter the effectiveness of the Warriors offence.

I could see how spacing would be worse since DeRozan is obviously nowhere near as good a 3PT shooter as Klay is. But how would the ball movement be worse? You're acting like DeRozan can't pass the basketball. He's shown to be a very good passer (I would argue he's actually much better than Klay at this) and even a willing one, he just plays like a ball stopper on the Raps because we run an iso offense (in case you haven't noticed ALL of our guards actually play like this, and many of them, particularly Vasquez were not ball-stoppers on their previous teams).

DeRozan would likely get more assists (and hockey assists) despite having the ball in his hands as a creator less on the Warriors, because the team moves the ball better, plays faster, and shoots much more efficiently from the field. While DeRozan would reduce the effectiveness of the spacing somewhat, Klay isn't the only good 3PT shooter in the starting lineup. Barnes is over 40%, Curry is obviously the greatest of all-time from 3PT range and Draymond Green hits at a high clip for a PF.

One thing that Golden State is actually weak at is getting to the free throw line (26th), and that's an area DeRozan could help them in greatly, which would be nice for those games where shots aren't falling and they need to grind out some easy points at the line.

I think this hypothetical is starting to drift away from the main point though, which was that DeRozan would be more efficient playing next to a legit superstar on a team that actually moves the ball. Playing uptempo, like the Warriors, is yet another bonus (please at least I hope we can agree that DeRozan excels in transition...?)

Based on some of your posts/views on DeRozan I have to ask this. In your opinion what team(s) could DeRozan start on and be effective?

Or is he not an NBA starter at all? And if so what role do you think he should have in the NBA and for what kind of team?

[JimiCliff]

How many different situations are there for "open shots"? You're either open or you're not.

I think DD would struggle in the sense that the GSW (and many other top) offence is primarily predicated on 3 point shooting and ball movement. Since DD doesn't excel in either area, there is legitimate concerns over his fit. Spacing issues, stagnant ball movement, and poor shot selection would dramatically alter the effectiveness of the Warriors offence.

And guys, let's not forget:

Demar doesn't even LIKE open shots.

[Axel]

I could see how spacing would be worse since DeRozan is obviously nowhere near as good a 3PT shooter as Klay is. But how would the ball movement be worse? You're acting like DeRozan can't pass the basketball. He's shown to be a very good passer (I would argue he's actually much better than Klay at this) and even a willing one, he just plays like a ball stopper on the Raps because we run an iso offense (in case you haven't noticed ALL of our guards actually play like this, and many of them, particularly Vasquez were not ball-stoppers on their previous teams).

DeRozan would likely get more assists (and hockey assists) despite having the ball in his hands as a creator less on the Warriors, because the team moves the ball better, plays faster, and shoots much more efficiently from the field. While DeRozan would reduce the effectiveness of the spacing somewhat, Klay isn't the only good 3PT shooter in the starting lineup. Barnes is over 40%, Curry is obviously the greatest of all-time from 3PT range and Draymond Green hits at a high clip for a PF.

One thing that Golden State is actually weak at is getting to the free throw line (26th), and that's an area DeRozan could help them in greatly, which would be nice for those games where shots aren't falling and they need to grind out some easy points at the line.

I think this hypothetical is starting to drift away from the main point though, which was that DeRozan would be more efficient playing next to a legit superstar on a team that actually moves the ball. Playing uptempo, like the Warriors, is yet another bonus (please at least I hope we can agree that DeRozan excels in transition...?)

Based on some of your posts/views on DeRozan I have to ask this. In your opinion what team(s) could DeRozan start on and be effective?

Or is he not an NBA starter at all? And if so what role do you think he should have in the NBA and for what kind of team?

Before I answer, I would really like your answer answer on the "open shots" or how to get options above DD from you. New blood, new perspective?

My answer
A team like Memphis would be best fit for a guy like Demar. They have an established identity, 2 low post scorers and a PG who clearly controls the offence (with both scoring and passing). Demar would likely be the 3rd/4th scoring option on that team and would have talented defenders around him to help mitigate any defensive issues. He would provide them a boost of athleticism, he'd fit into the hard work culture and could work on developing his off-ball movement to take advantage of the post play.

[Chr1s1anL]

Terribly? Is that your point?

I remember people and articles laughed at us because the two were so badly inefficient together. I just remember that Demar was slightly less so (of course this is going off of memory). Demar didn't start doing better until after he left (once more going off memory).

This was the most positive article on the two during that period that I could recall (and find).

This wasn't a good arguing point because they were both VERY bad together (at least, after the first training camp).

Further proof that Casey's teams appear to play better before they get a chance to learn or adjust to his "system".

November 13'
22.5 points .444 FG .384 3FG(on 3.9 attempts/g) 3 Ast 4 rebs

Yeah, terrible. Rudy Gay was traded after the 3rd game of December.

[Axel]

Very Easy to pull DD's numbers from pre-Gay Trade in 2014. Using BBRef, first 18 game log and export the stats table into excel, you get:

38 MPG
21.33 PPG on 43% FG, 34% from deep, and 77% FT
3.72 RPG
2.72 APG

The team went 6-12, with 50% of games home/road.

Finished the season with averages of

                                                                   

MP      FG  FGA  FG%  3P%  FT FTA  FT% TRB AST STL BLK TOV  PF  PTS

38.2   7.6 17.8 .429 .305 6.6 8.0 .824 4.3 4.0 1.1 0.4 2.2 2.5 22.7

[Chr1s1anL]

I disagree. While it is true that DeRozan's shooting percentages on open shots aren't good, I think it'd be worth it to do a deeper analysis of what situations those shots are being taken in.

I don't see how DeRozan wouldn't thrive on a team like the Warriors that has several offensive weapons, depth, a legitimate superstar and an excellent offensive system. He's not quite as good as Klay, and doesn't have the same type of skill-set but why wouldn't they be able to use him in a way that maximizes the skills that he DOES have?

I mean Harrison Barnes has barely changed his shot selection on that team from last season (if anything it's gotten worse because he's taking more long twos and less shots from 3-10ft, but because the team improved its offensive system so much this year his efficiency has skyrocketed (almost +10% TS%), Klay also saw a significant jump in efficiency (he was already efficient but jumped 3.6 TS% this year).

Some of you guys are trying to apply absolutes to DeRozan when you really never should try to apply absolutes to anything in basketball or life for that matter. You're saying he can't be a top option... but he also wouldn't improve as a second option... and he wouldn't play better if he was in a better offensive system... and he can't be a role player because he needs the ball too much... so really why is DeRozan in the NBA then?

Think you've got to be a bit more reasonable in your evaluations and at least realize that the way DeRozan is currently playing/choosing to play/being forced to play/being asked to play or whatever it is, is not really conducive to him playing efficient basketball.

Very well said! Every time DD gets a chance to play with legit talent his game gets better. That why I want to get a player like DMC out Sac-town. A big that can actually draw defensive attention.

[Joey]

DeRozan over his career has shown zero correlation between his usage and his efficiency. There is zero evidence to suggest he would have a better efficiency with a lesser role - and if he's not contributing in a major way offensively, what's the point of a) paying him like he'll want to be paid and b) trotting out his mediocre-at-best defence for long stretches?

Thats just not true though ... his first two seasons saw him with his basically his two lowest Usg% and his two Highest FG% and TS% ... that's evidence I'd say. With a Usage of 23%, Demar averaged 17 points on 47% from the Field for the Entire Season. This year he had his highest Usage to date (28.4%), and subsequently had his most inefficient season.

[white men can't jump]

Thats just not true though ... his first two seasons saw him with his basically his two lowest Usg% and his two Highest FG% and TS% ... Sooo ... that's evidence I'd say. With a Usage of 23%, Demar averaged 17 points on 47% from the Field for the Entire Season.

As Coaches began to ask more of him, his efficiency dropped. Precisely what the Dimishing Returns article states. And what most would expect.

I don't know. Hard to make such a judgment when you think of context.

He was more efficient in less usage, but was still developing his mid-range jumper. Was it coaches asking more, or was it DeMar starting to think long 2s were good shots because he was starting to be able to make them? A bit of both? Either way I'd argue the fact that he didn't have confidence in his jumper yet was a huge factor in the difference in efficiency. Now he has confidence in it....more than he should, really.

[S.R.]

Thats just not true though ... his first two seasons saw him with his basically his two lowest Usg% and his two Highest FG% and TS% ... that's evidence I'd say. With a Usage of 23%, Demar averaged 17 points on 47% from the Field for the Entire Season. This year he had his highest Usage to date, and subsequently had his most inefficient season.

Heh, at the rate his FG% is dropping, he might not even hit 40% next year. It's a pretty consistent decline from his .498 rookie season to .413 this last year.

[Joey]

I don't know. Hard to make such a judgment when you think of context.

He was more efficient in less usage, but was still developing his mid-range jumper. Was it coaches asking more, or was it DeMar starting to think long 2s were good shots because he was starting to be able to make them? A bit of both? Either way I'd argue the fact that he didn't have confidence in his jumper yet was a huge factor in the difference in efficiency. Now he has confidence in it....more than he should, really.

But thats obviously on the Coaches .. Thats literally exactly what a Coach is for, is reign in players when they've started making bad decisions.

[Axel]

But thats obviously on the Coaches .. Thats literally exactly what a Coach is for, is reign in players when they've started making bad decisions.

Maybe we need a thread about firing the coach then....oh wait

[MACK11]

But thats obviously on the Coaches .. Thats literally exactly what a Coach is for, is reign in players when they've started making bad decisions.

But that won't ever happen here

[white men can't jump]

But thats obviously on the Coaches .. Thats literally exactly what a Coach is for, is reign in players when they've started making bad decisions.

Maybe that's part of it. But at this point do you believe he can be reigned in? Do you believe DeMar understands that he'd be much more efficient if he improved his 3% and heavily altered his shot selection?

I think it's a bit too much of a copp out to blame the coaching. Players take shots they like, and DeMar likes bad shots. He always deflects questions about why he hasn't improved his 3s and looked to take more. He defends terrible shots (infamous "feel better taking contested shots" quote).

*BTW, his EFG% was at it's highest in his 4th/5th years after dropping steadily since his 1st. And dropped again this season. What happened in those years? Even at his poor %s, he took and made the most 3s in those seasons. And it was definitely a point of emphasis in his development (remember clips of coaches working with him on it) and in the game plan (they wanted him to take more 3s). And it fell back down this year. I wonder why that is.