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  • JWash wrote: View Post
    That argument doesn't make sense.

    I imagine DeRozan would also give the Raptors an opportunity to match any offer he's given considering the relationship he's built with the franchise and city over the years.
    Ah, the old Demar loves the city logic lol.

    If we offer him well below what he feels he deserves, that relationship can change really fast. His loyalty is to the city and the fans, not the front office and will not extend so far in contract talks.

    With JV, we can match. With DD, it's by his good graces that you get the opportunity to match (which still isn't necessarily a good idea).
    Heir, Prince of Cambridge

    If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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    • Scraptor wrote: View Post
      1. If JV plays his way into a max deal, yes.
      2. As an RFA, we can let the market dictate his value. We are in firm control of his next four-five years, unlike DeMar.
      3. It's unlikely JV gets the 2016 post-rookie max if Casey is still the coach.
      4. If he does earn it, and if forced to choose, I'm far more comfortable with giving $20mm a year to an efficient double-double machine than a long-2 iso guard. Low-efficiency volume scoring is the easiest commodity to replace in the NBA.

      Double double machine?
      He never even averaged a double double, how can he be a double machine ?

      How can u be okay with giving 20m to him when he's arguably not even a top 15 center in the league?

      Just out of curiousty who would u rather have
      Draymond green or JV
      Kawhi Leonard or JV
      Jimmy Butler or JV
      DeAndre jordan or JV
      Marc Gasol or JV

      I just named 5 players who will get around 20m a year this season
      Last edited by Abbas; Sat Jun 27, 2015, 08:46 PM.
      Abbas wrote:

      First of all i was my own source

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      • JV is going to be just fine
        For still frame photograph of me reading the DeRozan thread please refer to my avatar

        Comment


        • mcHAPPY wrote: View Post
          Wasn't he injured this year?

          Isn't that why he dropped off from last season?

          I can't keep up with the changing rationalizations.
          I'm not part of some sort of group think. We are not all one glob of person. Did Demar get hurt this season? Sure. Has he been as injured as Jrue since they signed similar contracts? No. Stop changing the goal posts or adding my opinion to someone else's so that you can be "right" (whatever that means). I'm not trying to rationalize anything. Demar's agents job is to pitch the idea that Demar is worth max -- that's not my job. Masai's job is to point out otherwise, and why Demar should take less. I'm merely pointing out one half of the debate.

          If you, or whomever has an issue with Demar paying someone to try and get him paid max money take it up with his agent. Personally, I don't care. There's just as much reasons to keep Demar as there are to trade him, or, as I suggested let him get overpaid in the free market as a free agent.

          Again, the teams that will succeed are the ones that will convince "stars" (and I use that term very loosely) to take pay cuts and play for under 20 mill. Those teams will succeed. The teams where they overpay their best players and pay role players chicken scratch will fail.

          Personally, I don't think he's worth 20 mill. If he can get more, good for him.

          What was your point mcHappy? Wasn't I agreeing with you?

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          • Abbas wrote: View Post
            Double double machine?
            He never even averaged a double double, how can he be a double machine ?

            How can u be okay with giving 20m to him when he's arguably not even a top 15 center in the league?

            Just out of curiousty who would u rather have
            Draymond green or JV
            Kawhi Leonard or JV
            Jimmy Butler or JV
            DeAndre jordan or JV
            Marc Gasol or JV

            I just named 5 players who will get around 20m a year this season

            Great job ignoring all the context I put around that statement. I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to such a stupid post, but here goes....

            JV played more than 30 minutes in only 22 games this season.
            JV also had 22 double doubles this season.
            JV put up 12.0pts and 8.7 rebs per game in 26 minutes per game.
            Per 36 that's 16.5 and 11.9.
            His foul rate went down and in fact he only registered 5 or more fouls eight times this season.

            If given more minutes JV would almost certainly average a double-double. Only 15 players put up 12/8.5 this season (minimum 1000 minutes); Jonas did it in the fewest minutes and had the best TS% and 3rd-best Win Shares per 48.

            In response to your thread, not one of these things means anyone is suggesting JV is the next Hakeem Olajuwon. They are simply very promising indicators.

            Now, since all of this seems to be some sort of overreaction to the discussion about DeMar, here are some other indicators for you to chew on.

            72 players attempted 12 FGA/g this season (minimum 1000 minutes).
            DeMar was 61st in TS% and 55th in WS/48.
            Among players who had a 20% USG rate this season and 1000 minutes played, DeMar was 95th in TS%.

            This is the dichotomy between the two.

            And again, here is what I said: IF FORCED TO CHOOSE between paying the two, I would choose JV. I also said the market would dictate his value and that IF HE PLAYED HIS WAY INTO A MAX DEAL, I wouldn't have a problem with paying him. Because the foundation of his game is solid. The foundation of DeMar's game as it currently stands involves taking a lot of shots to generate points.

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            • Abbas wrote: View Post
              Double double machine?
              He never even averaged a double double, how can he be a double machine ?

              How can u be okay with giving 20m to him when he's arguably not even a top 15 center in the league?

              Just out of curiousty who would u rather have
              Draymond green or JV
              Kawhi Leonard or JV
              Jimmy Butler or JV
              DeAndre jordan or JV
              Marc Gasol or JV

              I just named 5 players who will get around 20m a year this season
              if this forum was a class room you'd be the little annoying kid who yells a lot but no one actually takes seriously.

              double double? how many minutes does he get to play? there are only about 11 starting centers who averaged a double double and ALL of them played at least half a quarter longer than JV gets to. the only exception is whiteside, but thats only based on him playing only ~30'ish games.

              give JV 4-5 minutes more per game (aka similar minutes as other high end centers) and he can easily average a double double.
              Last edited by iblastoff; Sat Jun 27, 2015, 10:47 PM.

              Comment


              • Scraptor wrote: View Post
                Great job ignoring all the context I put around that statement. I don't know why I'm even bothering to respond to such a stupid post, but here goes....

                JV played more than 30 minutes in only 22 games this season.
                JV also had 22 double doubles this season.
                JV put up 12.0pts and 8.7 rebs per game in 26 minutes per game.
                Per 36 that's 16.5 and 11.9.
                His foul rate went down and in fact he only registered 5 or more fouls eight times this season.

                If given more minutes JV would almost certainly average a double-double. Only 15 players put up 12/8.5 this season (minimum 1000 minutes); Jonas did it in the fewest minutes and had the best TS% and 3rd-best Win Shares per 48.

                In response to your thread, not one of these things means anyone is suggesting JV is the next Hakeem Olajuwon. They are simply very promising indicators.

                Now, since all of this seems to be some sort of overreaction to the discussion about DeMar, here are some other indicators for you to chew on.

                72 players attempted 12 FGA/g this season (minimum 1000 minutes).
                DeMar was 61st in TS% and 55th in WS/48.
                Among players who had a 20% USG rate this season and 1000 minutes played, DeMar was 95th in TS%.

                This is the dichotomy between the two.

                And again, here is what I said: IF FORCED TO CHOOSE between paying the two, I would choose JV. I also said the market would dictate his value and that IF HE PLAYED HIS WAY INTO A MAX DEAL, I wouldn't have a problem with paying him. Because the foundation of his game is solid. The foundation of DeMar's game as it currently stands involves taking a lot of shots to generate points.

                Key word - IF

                your key word is IF. im sure my self JV would average a DD if he played 30+ minutes but he doesnt so why call him a double double machine?

                Manchines are people like Rodman, Shaq, Howard (Prime) and now D.Jordan
                these players can get double doubles whenever they want thats what i call them a machine.

                And guys idk why so many people think i dislike jv

                He's my second favourite player on the team right behind demar

                If you guys (not u scaptor) think im judging JV casue im not a fan of him ur so wrong

                I dislike
                1- ross
                2- lowry
                3- lou
                Abbas wrote:

                First of all i was my own source

                Comment


                • iblastoff wrote: View Post
                  if this forum was a class room you'd be the little annoying kid who yells a lot but no one actually takes seriously.

                  double double? how many minutes does he get to play? there are only about 11 starting centers who averaged a double double and ALL of them played at least half a quarter longer than JV gets to. the only exception is whiteside, but thats only based on him playing only ~30'ish games.

                  give JV 4-5 minutes more per game (aka similar minutes as other high end centers) and he can easily average a double double.
                  im sure he can but he isnt so why call him a double double machine

                  that was my point

                  The players who should be defined as double double machines are
                  D.Jordan
                  Drummond
                  Cousins, ect....
                  Abbas wrote:

                  First of all i was my own source

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                  • Abbas wrote: View Post
                    im sure he can but he isnt so why call him a double double machine

                    that was my point

                    The players who should be defined as double double machines are
                    D.Jordan
                    Drummond
                    Cousins, ect....


                    deandre jordan plays 8 minutes more per game than JV does. thats 3/4 of an entire quarter longer. if deandre DID NOT get those extra minutes, he would not be averaging a double double. not sure how this point keeps getting missed.

                    Comment


                    • iblastoff wrote: View Post


                      deandre jordan plays 8 minutes more per game than JV does. thats 3/4 of an entire quarter longer. if deandre DID NOT get those extra minutes, he would not be averaging a double double. not sure how this point keeps getting missed.
                      if DJ played only 24minutes (less then JV) he would still average almost 12rebounds, come on man dont even try to compare jv with DJ there's no competition.

                      Anyways im going to stop auguring with u guys. there's no point. just know that i dont hate on JV, he's my second favourite player on the team and ik he will be a very good player. however i dont think he will be a great player. I hope u guys can respect that and not make no childish jokes
                      peace
                      Abbas wrote:

                      First of all i was my own source

                      Comment


                      • How to respond to this thread...

                        First, the Lowry contract comparison. Lowry got his deal in a normal cap environment. DeRozan will be getting his deal in the worst cap space to available talent ratio in the history of the NBA (possibly in the history of sport). Next.

                        On JV getting max versus DD. Context of their respective maxes: JV's will be equivalent to 14M per year under the current cap - a couple million over the going rate for a simple starting C, let alone a star, if he were to keep improving. DD would be getting the equivalent of about 18M per year. For a guy who frankly doesn't move the needle. And that's ignoring the whole flight risk aspect.

                        I won't bother with comparing who is actually worth more - anything I could point out has already been and if you aren't convinced yet you never will be.
                        twitter.com/dhackett1565

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                        • Abbas wrote: View Post
                          if DJ played only 24minutes (less then JV) he would still average almost 12rebounds, come on man dont even try to compare jv with DJ there's no competition.

                          Anyways im going to stop auguring with u guys. there's no point. just know that i dont hate on JV, he's my second favourite player on the team and ik he will be a very good player. however i dont think he will be a great player. I hope u guys can respect that and not make no childish jokes
                          peace
                          The vitriol you are receiving isn't due to people thinking you dislike JV (frankly no one cares who you like/dislike) but rather you clearly aren't paying attention to the posts that you are quoting, arguing with.

                          There have been lots of detailed posts about the progress and production of JV thus far. All signs point to a very positive post presence.

                          Oh, and Jordan can't score for shit. He needs all of his points created for him by a teammate or missed shots. His defence is great but swap players and I guarantee that JV gets a double double with the Clippers (getting DJs minutes) and DJ does not score 10 in JVs minutes.
                          Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                          If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

                          Comment


                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            How to respond to this thread...

                            First, the Lowry contract comparison. Lowry got his deal in a normal cap environment. DeRozan will be getting his deal in the worst cap space to available talent ratio in the history of the NBA (possibly in the history of sport). Next.

                            On JV getting max versus DD. Context of their respective maxes: JV's will be equivalent to 14M per year under the current cap - a couple million over the going rate for a simple starting C, let alone a star, if he were to keep improving. DD would be getting the equivalent of about 18M per year. For a guy who frankly doesn't move the needle. And that's ignoring the whole flight risk aspect.

                            I won't bother with comparing who is actually worth more - anything I could point out has already been and if you aren't convinced yet you never will be.
                            Lowry argument doesn't make sense as the teams that went after him still had the ability to pay him max money and he didn't get it. After all Bosh got the max (from Houston and Miami... the same teams who were going after Lowry) and one could easily argue that Lowry was a better player than Bosh in 2013-14. He didn't get a max deal because he wasn't worth one, which is exactly what's going to happen with DeRozan unless he puts up like 25-5-5 next season.

                            Those bolded numbers are wrong

                            JV is eligible for 25% of the salary cap in a max... that percentage doesn't change even though the salary cap is rising. So an equivalent contract to the max in 2016 would simply be the max right now which is ~25% of 67.1M or 16.75M.

                            DD is eligible for 30% of the salary cap in a max... again the percentage doesn't magically change when the cap rises so he'd be eligible for about 20.1M.

                            I'd be more willing to give JV the max simply because it's a lower dollar amount but I don't see DeRozan getting a 25M max when 2016 FA rolls around anyway unless he improves a lot this coming season. Some of you are confusing the point I made about JV. I didn't say he's less worth the max than DD is. I just said he's more likely to get his max considering he's a center first of all and he is statistically a more efficient player on the court. He's also younger and can probably still feed off the "potential" tag especially considering Casey doesn't max out his minutes.

                            Idk why people think DeRozan is going to get a max in the advanced stats era. Teams can see that he is an all-star yes, but also has flaws as a player. Or do you guys think that only us forum posters understand that while NBA front offices are inept? Notice that over the past few years (basically since 2010 FA) nobody has really handed out a bad, cap-killing contract in free agency.

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                            • I wouldn't dispute dans' numbers. Cba lawyers ask his advice

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                              • JWash wrote: View Post

                                Idk why people think DeRozan is going to get a max in the advanced stats era. Teams can see that he is an all-star yes, but also has flaws as a player. Or do you guys think that only us forum posters understand that while NBA front offices are inept? Notice that over the past few years (basically since 2010 FA) nobody has really handed out a bad, cap-killing contract in free agency.
                                Not all teams rely heavily on advanced stats. Both New York teams are prime examples of this. All it takes is 1 team out of 30.

                                Plus you have to factor in that if a team that already has their star players locked into contract can afford to overpay for a secondary player if they need a SG who can score. Not all players are going to be up for contract renewals, so there will be lots of great players on great bargain deals and teams with this benefit can afford to roll the dice on an overpriced player if they feel he is the missing piece.

                                Minnesota would be an example of a team that has star players locked into rookie deals (Wiggins, Towns) that could afford to overspend if they feel the need to compete (and Flip Saunders is certainly not advanced stats savy). Now I'm not predicting Minnesota will be that team, but without bothering to check team player contracts, they are an example of one team that could. And it only takes one.
                                Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                                If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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