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  • JWash wrote: View Post
    No I didn't.
    I mean, you said the odds were 'miniscule'. To me, that's all but a guarantee.
    "Stop eating your sushi."
    "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
    "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
    - Jack Armstrong

    Comment


    • In my opinion if Masai gravely feared DeRozan getting a full max next year, he would ship his ass out right now. Once again this is not a guarantee, I'm just saying what I think would happen (I shouldn't need to clarify this in every post, JimiCliff).

      Even the most devoted DeMar fans won't say he's worth 29M a season. Especially since that's the kind of money that Anthony Davis just got, and Durant is going to get. And those are the future best player in the league and current 2nd best player in the league.

      This also ties into my reasoning why I think the chance of him getting the full max is very low. Even for a very bad GM, how do you justify paying DeRozan, Kevin Durant money in the same offseason?

      Comment


      • JWash wrote: View Post
        I have OSC on ignore, but since you quoted him I can see his post.

        I never said DeRozan is going to get exactly 22.5M. My premise was that if Masai is willing to pay 22.5M for what will likely be two role players, IF he considers DeRozan a core guy I don't see why he wouldn't get his money as well. I do not know exactly what that dollar figure would be, what I would personally like to see is 18-20M per year.

        Also wtf is District of DeRozan?
        If you back peddle any more you're going to run into that wall

        According to your statements DD should be getting approximately a 8 mil/year contract.

        You say he MAY increase his production just like he did after his rookie extension...but I don't think anyone has doubled their production after 8 year in the league (to get to 16 mil/year) or if DD is asking the rumoured max...he would have to triple his production to deserve it.

        I think at the end of the day MU and DD will be too far apart to make it work. ie) DD at 18-20 and MU in that <15 range

        Comment


        • JWash wrote: View Post
          The points you're making here are good, but irrelevant.

          My point was that Raptors fans, particularly those you'll find on forums like this one, are not very good at making predictions regarding how moves/decisions will turn out in the future.

          Whether there was evidence for Casey being a good coach or not. The fact remains that people overrated and overhyped him and he turned out to be very mediocre.

          Whether DeRozan's first extension was an overpay at the time is debatable, sure. But the fact remains that most fans thought it was atrocious and vehemently wanted him gone immediately afterwards (and many even before). The contract has turned out to be a good one so they were wrong.

          It even works both ways. I know many people (personally... and I'm sure they exist here as well) who trash DeRozan and demand for his trade, yet supported Bargs right up until the bitter end. So let's be real, none of us know what's going to happen. I appreciate your knowledge and understanding of the cap, but that includes you too DanH and of course myself.

          So people need to stop pretending this 29M per year contract is a guarantee.
          Ah, so your point is that all Raptors fans are equally capable of projecting the future? All people as well, then, yes? All I was saying with the RealGM point is I might as well say I saw a poster on another site whose user name started with J and he thought basketball was played with hockey sticks so clearly YOU are equally moronic. Why would you bring up RealGM at all when you yourself mentioned that fans on this site showed a completely different reaction? Clearly then there are differences between the groups and lumping them in together is just straw manning the heck out of your argument. Not the way to go. And using that non-evidence just weakens your other claims because now an astute reader questions your honesty in presenting those as well.

          So, wait, is your point that sometimes people are not able to predict the future 100%? If that's your point, what exactly are you trying to prove? Has anyone ever stated that anything will definitely happen, beyond those few who consistently present extreme view points and would never be swayed by a post like this?

          And taking the majority on any subject, you'll find there are many instances where the majority is right and many where it is wrong. But keep in mind, even if DeMar is not guaranteed to get the max, surely everyone on the board will admit it is a distinct possibility, having just witnessed this summer's free agency period. And I don't think you'll see that the majority think DD will get the max, nor that the majority think he absolutely has to be traded, so I don't see the relevance of your argument against the majority.

          I'm having a hard time tracking what your point was supposed to be. You are finishing with the statement that people need to stop pretending that the max is a guarantee for DeMar. Has anyone really suggested that? I'm sure some have expressed that he is bound to get it from someone, but that's hardly a guarantee, just commentary on probability. And you can hardly blame Raptors fans for bracing for the worst case scenario - it's happened a lot around here, so at some point if you assume good things will happen you just aren't paying attention.
          twitter.com/dhackett1565

          Comment


          • DanH wrote: View Post
            Ah, so your point is that all Raptors fans are equally capable of projecting the future? All people as well, then, yes? All I was saying with the RealGM point is I might as well say I saw a poster on another site whose user name started with J and he thought basketball was played with hockey sticks so clearly YOU are equally moronic. Why would you bring up RealGM at all when you yourself mentioned that fans on this site showed a completely different reaction? Clearly then there are differences between the groups and lumping them in together is just straw manning the heck out of your argument. Not the way to go. And using that non-evidence just weakens your other claims because now an astute reader questions your honesty in presenting those as well.

            So, wait, is your point that sometimes people are not able to predict the future 100%? If that's your point, what exactly are you trying to prove? Has anyone ever stated that anything will definitely happen, beyond those few who consistently present extreme view points and would never be swayed by a post like this?

            And taking the majority on any subject, you'll find there are many instances where the majority is right and many where it is wrong. But keep in mind, even if DeMar is not guaranteed to get the max, surely everyone on the board will admit it is a distinct possibility, having just witnessed this summer's free agency period. And I don't think you'll see that the majority think DD will get the max, nor that the majority think he absolutely has to be traded, so I don't see the relevance of your argument against the majority.

            I'm having a hard time tracking what your point was supposed to be. You are finishing with the statement that people need to stop pretending that the max is a guarantee for DeMar. Has anyone really suggested that? I'm sure some have expressed that he is bound to get it from someone, but that's hardly a guarantee, just commentary on probability. And you can hardly blame Raptors fans for bracing for the worst case scenario - it's happened a lot around here, so at some point if you assume good things will happen you just aren't paying attention.
            Dude drop it we're not even arguing about anything at this point.

            Comment


            • Ask all of Demar's biggest fans on here if he's worth 29 mil per (KD, Lebron, AD $$)......lol

              Ridiculous. It's not going to happen unless he transforms himself into Lebron.

              I certainly don't think you'll find even one GM that will pay that amount for someone who the majority posting in this thread think is a "inefficient chucker / ball hog."

              Scare tactics. This is what the "whispers" are.

              Knowing that it will get all the Demar haters riled up. You guys fell for it.

              No sources. Pure speculation. Whispers.





              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

              Comment


              • JWash wrote: View Post
                Dude drop it we're not even arguing about anything at this point.
                Ah, I won't bother with the whole rational discussion, opposing viewpoints, intelligent debate and exchange of ideas thing next time.
                twitter.com/dhackett1565

                Comment


                • JWash wrote: View Post
                  Dude drop it we're not even arguing about anything at this point.
                  always hilarious when someone completely obliterates your terrible arguments (you can tell they're terrible when people like mcrealistic/special1/christian1 are generally the only ones that agree with your incessant ranting) and you just shrivel up and decide the debate is over, only to try and start the exact same shit in another or even a new thread.

                  Comment


                  • JWash wrote: View Post
                    In my opinion if Masai gravely feared DeRozan getting a full max next year, he would ship his ass out right now. Once again this is not a guarantee, I'm just saying what I think would happen (I shouldn't need to clarify this in every post, JimiCliff).

                    Even the most devoted DeMar fans won't say he's worth 29M a season. Especially since that's the kind of money that Anthony Davis just got, and Durant is going to get. And those are the future best player in the league and current 2nd best player in the league.

                    This also ties into my reasoning why I think the chance of him getting the full max is very low. Even for a very bad GM, how do you justify paying DeRozan, Kevin Durant money in the same offseason?
                    Hmm. How do you justify paying Tristan Thompson a similar deal that Kawhi Leonard got? It's going to happen.

                    The entire point of maximum contracts is that players who are worth more than that get.... the max. And players who are worth les than that get... the max, because with the true superstars' salaries suppressed, there's more for the next tier. And so on and so forth.

                    If teams strike out on the Kevin Durants, they will go after the next tier, and there will be bidding wars, and maybe it doesn't get to the max, but there are enough stupid owners in the NBA that it is not crazy to suggest it is a real risk.
                    twitter.com/dhackett1565

                    Comment


                    • DanH wrote: View Post
                      Hmm. How do you justify paying Tristan Thompson a similar deal that Kawhi Leonard got? It's going to happen.

                      The entire point of maximum contracts is that players who are worth more than that get.... the max. And players who are worth les than that get... the max, because with the true superstars' salaries suppressed, there's more for the next tier. And so on and so forth.

                      If teams strike out on the Kevin Durants, they will go after the next tier, and there will be bidding wars, and maybe it doesn't get to the max, but there are enough stupid owners in the NBA that it is not crazy to suggest it is a real risk.
                      both signed with Bird Rights which is different from clearing cap space and then blowing it on Demar

                      Comment


                      • special1 wrote: View Post
                        Ask all of Demar's biggest fans on here if he's worth 29 mil per (KD, Lebron, AD $$)......lol

                        Ridiculous. It's not going to happen unless he transforms himself into Lebron.

                        I certainly don't think you'll find even one GM that will pay that amount for someone who the majority posting in this thread think is a "inefficient chucker / ball hog."

                        Scare tactics. This is what the "whispers" are.

                        Knowing that it will get all the Demar haters riled up. You guys fell for it.

                        No sources. Pure speculation. Whispers.





                        Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                        "Stop eating your sushi."
                        "I do actually have a pair of Uggs."
                        "I've had three cups of green tea tonight. I'm wired. I'm absolutely wired."
                        - Jack Armstrong

                        Comment


                        • iblastoff wrote: View Post
                          always hilarious when someone completely obliterates your terrible arguments (you can tell they're terrible when people like mcrealistic/special1/christian1 are generally the only ones that agree with your incessant ranting) and you just shrivel up and decide the debate is over, only to try and start the exact same shit in another or even a new thread.
                          Lol

                          It's pretty easy to run with the crowd like you do.

                          His arguments are as legit as yours are.

                          Remember all the arguments you were involved in regarding Demar? Remember you said he was a shitty player? Check the thread. Remember he went on to make the all-star team, Team USA and now people are even talking about him being a near max player?

                          I don't always agree with JWash but I respect that he states his opinion and takes a beating from the RR mob for it.

                          Sometimes you have to agree to disagree no?




                          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                          Comment


                          • DanH wrote: View Post
                            Ah, I won't bother with the whole rational discussion, opposing viewpoints, intelligent debate and exchange of ideas thing next time.
                            Agreed.

                            Comment


                            • Since I'm apparently out of arguments. I'll show you I'm not. If you want to go in circles for the next 30 pages I'm down.

                              DanH wrote: View Post
                              Ah, so your point is that all Raptors fans are equally capable of projecting the future? All people as well, then, yes? All I was saying with the RealGM point is I might as well say I saw a poster on another site whose user name started with J and he thought basketball was played with hockey sticks so clearly YOU are equally moronic. Why would you bring up RealGM at all when you yourself mentioned that fans on this site showed a completely different reaction? Clearly then there are differences between the groups and lumping them in together is just straw manning the heck out of your argument. Not the way to go. And using that non-evidence just weakens your other claims because now an astute reader questions your honesty in presenting those as well.
                              No I did not suggest that all people are equally capable of projecting the future, because some people have a better understanding of how things work than others. What I did suggest is that it is generally unwise to speak about the future in absolutes. Which anyone with any intelligence whatsoever would agree with. Not even sure what your point is about the RealGM thing. When I said "not so much here" it's because I didn't see the sentiment against Jonas so strongly when I was looking for it through the archives (mainly because it is a lot easier to google for such things on RealGM because it's a bigger site, and I also only joined here recently so I can't speak to it from memory). I'm not lumping any groups together, that's a straw man, what I'm saying is that Raptors fans (especially those on the internet) make a ton of big predictions about how things are going to go, and from what I've seen the general outlook or the most-shared outlook is very often wrong and flagrantly wrong at that.

                              So, wait, is your point that sometimes people are not able to predict the future 100%? If that's your point, what exactly are you trying to prove? Has anyone ever stated that anything will definitely happen, beyond those few who consistently present extreme view points and would never be swayed by a post like this?
                              Clearly, those are the people I'm talking about (and there are several of them) when I say speaking in absolutes or saying that DeRozan is all but a lock to get a max contract. If you're not one of those people (and from what I've seen you aren't) you're not exactly who I'm talking about when I refer to that. I'm not trying to sway people in my posts, because let's be real, we could sit here and argue about DeRozan until July 1st, 2016 and most people with strong opinions would stick to them no matter what facts are presented.

                              And taking the majority on any subject, you'll find there are many instances where the majority is right and many where it is wrong. But keep in mind, even if DeMar is not guaranteed to get the max, surely everyone on the board will admit it is a distinct possibility, having just witnessed this summer's free agency period. And I don't think you'll see that the majority think DD will get the max, nor that the majority think he absolutely has to be traded, so I don't see the relevance of your argument against the majority.
                              Disagree with the use of the term "distinct possibility" as that implies that it is very likely, which I disagree with. I would say that there is a possibility for sure, and most people would also agree with that (except special1, who I also think isn't being wise by making guarantees, btw), but I think it's a small one. Maybe the majority don't think he has to be traded, perhaps I'm getting that view because those are the people who post most frequently from what I've seen (you, mcHAPPY, Axel, some of the mods, etc). So it appears to be the general sentiment.

                              I'm having a hard time tracking what your point was supposed to be. You are finishing with the statement that people need to stop pretending that the max is a guarantee for DeMar. Has anyone really suggested that? I'm sure some have expressed that he is bound to get it from someone, but that's hardly a guarantee, just commentary on probability. And you can hardly blame Raptors fans for bracing for the worst case scenario - it's happened a lot around here, so at some point if you assume good things will happen you just aren't paying attention.
                              I'm having an equally hard-time figuring out what your point is.

                              My point is. It is not a guarantee that DeMar is going to get a max deal. I personally think there is a low probability of that. As such, I do not think DeMar MUST be traded like some other posters. In my opinion you only trade DeRozan now if it's a deal that you would accept EVEN IF his free agency wasn't impending. If DeRozan was locked in for 2016-17, would you ship him out for a late-teens pick? That's why I have a huge issue with OSC's original post (which is what sparked this argument btw, so I'm not just pulling it from nowhere like you're trying to make it seem).

                              I am also bracing for the worst case scenario. FWIW when Bosh was an impending UFA I wanted him traded for that rumoured Ellis-Biedrins deal, but that's because I felt it was very unlikely we'd be able to retain him. In this case I think it's very possible DeMar is retained for a fair price and as such I am not advocating for him to be dealt at all costs. If you can get a great deal for him, sure. But if you're selling him out of fear of FA for less than adequate value, that's where I have an issue.

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                              • You know, I want DeMar gone now.

                                It's not even because of his basketball abilities.

                                Good god. It's like drugs to you guys.

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