Everything Derozan

[SkywalkerAC]

Yeah cause Harden is 20 times the player Demar is, and everyone though harden would explode, no one is thinking a 7th year player is gonna have a Harden-esque breakout.

Yes, Harden's better, but it's still an analogous situation - dealing with a top player a the SG position. Being cheap bit OKC in the ass, and I'd hope we don't go that same route.

[Snooch]

Yes, Harden's better, but it's still an analogous situation - dealing with a top player a the SG position. Being cheap bit OKC in the ass, and I'd hope we don't go that same route.

but here is the thing, it in no way bites us in the ass.

I am not going to go into Demars "impact" and the offense that drives that but just know that he is replaceable.

His production is really easily replaced.

[Mindlessness]

And trading Harden for that package was a MASSIVE mistake. He presented a lot more value himself; DeMar could present a similar situation.

I doubt it, Harden's game literally fits the league as it is today like a glove. DeMar's skills don't matchup very well with the types of basketball players he'll be up against today or in the future; Harden's skills did, have, and will continue to matchup very well for the foreseeable future.

If we were heading into a new age of basketball that is something like the 90s, sure, I could see DeMar improving a couple notches, everyone played ISO-ball and we'd have a slightly above-average ISO-ball player. But, otherwise? Today's league is a league where shooting, passing, finishing, movement, and ball handling have increased value. DeMar doesn't have those skills, so even if he does get better overall at his strengths, how much do they tie into the ideas of basketball today?

[SkywalkerAC]

but here is the thing, it in no way bites us in the ass.

I am not going to go into Demars "impact" and the offense that drives that but just know that he is replaceable.

His production is really easily replaced.

You're looking to de-consolidate for no real reason. At least OKC had the fear of the tax.

[SkywalkerAC]

I doubt it, Harden's game literally fits the league as it is today like a glove. DeMar's skills don't matchup very well with the types of basketball players he'll be up against today or in the future; Harden's skills did, have, and will continue to matchup very well for the foreseeable future.

If we were heading into a new age of basketball that is something like the 90s, sure, I could see DeMar improving a couple notches, everyone played ISO-ball and we'd have a slightly above-average ISO-ball player. But, otherwise? Today's league is a league where shooting, passing, finishing, movement, and ball handling have increased value. DeMar doesn't have those skills, so even if he does get better overall at his strengths, how much do they tie into the ideas of basketball today?

DeMar's floor-game has come a lot further than you're giving it credit for. If he can extend his range, and I think he will, he's right there in terms of the skills you're looking for.

Where'd this idea come from that DeMar can't move without the ball? He used to get most of his looks coming off screens/pin-downs, and was one of the league leaders in tracked in-game movement.

[Mindlessness]

DeMar's floor-game has come a lot further than you're giving it credit for. If he can extend his range, and I think he will, he's right there in terms of the skills you're looking for.

Where'd this idea come from that DeMar can't move without the ball? He used to get most of his looks coming off screens/pin-downs, and was one of the league leaders in tracked in-game movement.

We've never seen any hint that DeMar will become a good shooter from 3 other than a month here or there of hot shooting. I very very much doubt he'll become a 33% shooter from 3, never mind 35%+.

When I said DeMar didn't have those skills, I didn't mean he was completely devoid of them, I just meant he isn't elite at any of them. Obviously he does move a lot. His off-ball movement, decent passing, and OK ball handling are exactly why I think he can be a good player for a championship team; a #4 option that slashes and is used to create more than score.

Comparing him to Harden in those skills though? Uh.... Harden is elite or near-elite at ALL of those skills; great shooter, great finisher, great passer, good off-ball movement, and his ball-handling skills have basically defined him as more of a PG for Houston rather than a SG. DeMar doesn't come close on anything except maybe movement.

[S.R.]

DeMar's floor-game has come a lot further than you're giving it credit for. If he can extend his range, and I think he will, he's right there in terms of the skills you're looking for.

Where'd this idea come from that DeMar can't move without the ball? He used to get most of his looks coming off screens/pin-downs, and was one of the league leaders in tracked in-game movement.

What I saw DeMar use his improved handle for was to dribble around in traffic for a bit before picking up the ball, pivoting and pump-faking a few times, and then shooting a nice long J with a hand in his face. I did not see his improved handle shake any defenders or improve his ability to get to the rim. It basically is allowing a high usage player to hold onto the ball longer without providing any efficiencies.

DeMar's new handle = overrated.

[SkywalkerAC]

Don't know what you were watching, but I saw him shake plenty of defenders with his handle. His proportion of shots at the rim did go up by over 25% from the previous year.

[S.R.]

Don't know what you were watching, but I saw him shake plenty of defenders with his handle. His proportion of shots at the rim did go up by over 25% from the previous year.

Cool.

A few fun facts (Are these affected by DeMar making use of his new and improved handle? I think so):

In 2013/14 DD attempted 35.5% of his shots after 0 dribbles. In 2014/15 that dropped to 23% of his attempts. This is by far DD's most efficient shot (50% eFG in 13/14) and he shot it a lot less once he figured his handle was good enough to dribble around a bit. He replaced those catch-and-shoot shots with a variety of off-the dribble shots, but the biggest increase was after 3-6 dribbles which saw a bump from 23% of his shots in 13/14 to 28% of his shots in 14/15. His eFG on that shot was 39% last season (remember how much more efficient he is after zero dribbles?).

His improved handle saw virtually no change in his ability to create space on his shot. Proximity of the defender on his FGA pretty much the same from 13/14 to 14/15, even though he was dribbling more before more of his shots.

Another significant change? How long he held the ball. He held it for two seconds or less on 45% of his FGA in 13/14 and that dropped to 35% of his FGA in 14/15.

So he dribble more before a larger percentage of his shots (lower efficiency on those attempts for him), he failed to create space on his shot attempts even with more dribbling, and he held the ball for longer without increasing his shooting efficiency or his AST per 36 (virtually unchanged between the two years).

Like I said, he dribbled around in traffic more without producing any measurable benefits. Well, I was wrong in that the opposite happened. The ball "stuck" as he held it longer before shooting and he took fewer of his highest percentage catch-and-shoot shots and more of his lowest percentage 3-6 dribble shots.

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/tracking/shots/

[JWash]

I doubt it, Harden's game literally fits the league as it is today like a glove. DeMar's skills don't matchup very well with the types of basketball players he'll be up against today or in the future; Harden's skills did, have, and will continue to matchup very well for the foreseeable future.

If we were heading into a new age of basketball that is something like the 90s, sure, I could see DeMar improving a couple notches, everyone played ISO-ball and we'd have a slightly above-average ISO-ball player. But, otherwise? Today's league is a league where shooting, passing, finishing, movement, and ball handling have increased value. DeMar doesn't have those skills, so even if he does get better overall at his strengths, how much do they tie into the ideas of basketball today?

DeMar doesn't have any of these skills? I'll admit he's not a great shooter. But he is an effective passer, he's one of the better finishing wings in the league, we don't see much of his movement because he doesn't really play off-ball much under Casey, but he has shown to be an effective cutter. His ball handling is solid for the SG position. He doesn't have yo-yo handles but he has a low-turnover rate and can get by his man (if he couldn't he wouldn't get so many FTA).

These kind of comments are why DeMar discussions can't be civilized. You have to at least give him some credit as a player. If he didn't have any of those skills he wouldn't be in the NBA. Let alone a solidified starter, all-star, and member of Team USA's World team. Stop being silly.

[Snooch]

DeMar doesn't have any of these skills? I'll admit he's not a great shooter. But he is an effective passer, he's one of the better finishing wings in the league, we don't see much of his movement because he doesn't really play off-ball much under Casey, but he has shown to be an effective cutter. His ball handling is solid for the SG position. He doesn't have yo-yo handles but he has a low-turnover rate and can get by his man (if he couldn't he wouldn't get so many FTA).

These kind of comments are why DeMar discussions can't be civilized. You have to at least give him some credit as a player. If he didn't have any of those skills he wouldn't be in the NBA. Let alone a solidified starter, all-star, and member of Team USA's World team. Stop being silly.

he was an allstar over a year ago and was a coaches selection in an injury riddled east, and team usa means jack shit so drop those two praises there.

he doesnt get by his man, he gets freethrows because people bite on his pumps.

and he only passes when he gets into trouble offensively, he passes out of neccessity, not because he is looking for his man.

to quote demar "my teamates know once i get myself going then i will start to look for them"

[tDotted]

His ball handling is solid for the SG position. He doesn't have yo-yo handles but he has a low-turnover rate and can get by his man (if he couldn't he wouldn't get so many FTA).

His game in a nutshell.

[S.R.]

His game in a nutshell.

Amir basically stopped rolling to the basket after Jose left. *cries*

[JawsGT]

Cool.

A few fun facts (Are these affected by DeMar making use of his new and improved handle? I think so):

In 2013/14 DD attempted 35.5% of his shots after 0 dribbles. In 2014/15 that dropped to 23% of his attempts. This is by far DD's most efficient shot (50% eFG in 13/14) and he shot it a lot less once he figured his handle was good enough to dribble around a bit. He replaced those catch-and-shoot shots with a variety of off-the dribble shots, but the biggest increase was after 3-6 dribbles which saw a bump from 23% of his shots in 13/14 to 28% of his shots in 14/15. His eFG on that shot was 39% last season (remember how much more efficient he is after zero dribbles?).

http://stats.nba.com/player/#!/201942/tracking/shots/

man, the bold is simply not true. The ways in which Demar got the ball in 13/14 was very different than it was in 14/15. He didn't replace catch and shoots with dribble drives/shots, the coaching staff did by changing the teams approach to offence, which looks more and more like it was done to make effective use of Lou Williams. In 13/14, the team ran alot of sets and off ball movement designed to get Demar open looks. They ultimately had a similar effect of producing mid range jumpers, but at least it was from ball and player movement and actually were catch and shoots. Last season, we did little of this for Demar, or anyone else for that matter. The result was simply our guards trying to create alot from little, and the end result was rather poor shot selection. You could swap our guards last season with any assortment of guards from around the league and the result would be the same IMO...poor shot selection. Ultimately, we may have been more successful with more talented guards given how we played, but it still would have been ugly and still would have resulted in poor shot selection.

People need to stop pretending that Demar chooses to just take all these terrible shots because he's Demar f'ing Derozan and he thinks he can do whatever he wants without someone within the organization getting pissed and telling him so. He's doing what coaches and management want and expect him to do, cause if he wasn't, he wouldn't still be here. Does anyone really think MU is gonna hold on to a borderline all-star, egocentric player, that completely hi-jacks games by doing whatever he wants on the court? Give me a break...he would have been gone before Rudy if that was the case.

[S.R.]

man, the bold is simply not true. The ways in which Demar got the ball in 13/14 was very different than it was in 14/15. He didn't replace catch and shoots with dribble drives/shots, the coaching staff did by changing the teams approach to offence, which looks more and more like it was done to make effective use of Lou Williams. In 13/14, the team ran alot of sets and off ball movement designed to get Demar open looks. They ultimately had a similar effect of producing mid range jumpers, but at least it was from ball and player movement and actually were catch and shoots. Last season, we did little of this for Demar, or anyone else for that matter. The result was simply our guards trying to create alot from little, and the end result was rather poor shot selection. You could swap our guards last season with any assortment of guards from around the league and the result would be the same IMO...poor shot selection. Ultimately, we may have been more successful with more talented guards given how we played, but it still would have been ugly and still would have resulted in poor shot selection.

People need to stop pretending that Demar chooses to just take all these terrible shots because he's Demar f'ing Derozan and he thinks he can do whatever he wants without someone within the organization getting pissed and telling him so. He's doing what coaches and management want and expect him to do, cause if he wasn't, he wouldn't still be here. Does anyone really think MU is gonna hold on to a borderline all-star, egocentric player, that completely hi-jacks games by doing whatever he wants on the court? Give me a break...he would have been gone before Rudy if that was the case.

Actually, I think that pretty much is exactly how it is right now. Casey green lights all the guards and defends their play to the media. They intentionally ran ISO stuff last year for their shot creators, but Lou, DeMar, Lowry, and GV all appeared to love it. They only guys we saw grumbling were role players like PP who depended on ball movement. Listen to DeMar in interviews - he thinks he needs to get his to get the team going, he thinks his tough shots are good shots.

I think Casey shifted the strategy from the previous year to accomodate the preferences of his core players and because the coaching staff seemed to have latched on to a high-ISO/low-turnover approach to the offense. They thought that was gonna work in the playoffs.

They got exposed in the playoffs and Casey's much-maligned NBA.com interview references a lot of these issues. Sounds like he plans to shift back to some more movement in the offense instead of the heavy emphasis on ISO.

It was a perfect storm. The coaching staff green lighted seemingly anything from the guards (I don't know how many times opposing broadcast teams said "Wow, that's a bad shot" on off the bounce pull-up J's after zero passes. And they were normal shots for last year's team.) but guys like DeMar and Lou were more than happy to take the shots.

I'd like to hear DeMar talk about his role the way he talked about Team USA. His emphasis on doing everything possible to help that team (defense, rebounding, facilitating, hustle, scoring) was very different than how he talks about his role on the Raps. He loves being Canadian Kobe. So yeah, I do blame him just as much as I blame Casey for the ugly ball I've watched recently. There's blood on all their hands! I miss the couple months of team-ball we saw immediately after the Gay trade.