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  • Snooch wrote: View Post
    dont need SUPERSTAR talent to win, you need a collection of above average players who all can compete and play their roles to a t.

    I dont think it is a moot point persay, as you stated that he can be the thrid player on a championship team. Add him to OKC and their title hopes get better, yup, but he is 4th best player on that team.

    He is third best on our team, and we are treadmilling.
    How many teams have won the title without a superstar player?

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    • I hate his production most of the time. But as a player? He can do a lot more than what his production would indicate. A coach that forces this guy to be more catch and shoot.. to get more cuts.. (you know, simple plays) would maximize his efficiency.

      Kawhi Leonard in this system is shooting 44% from the field... max.

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      • Axel wrote: View Post
        Yet you are the one who called him a 20-5-5 guy....
        Dude he's putting up 21-4.2-4.2. It's not like I said something that is crazily off in the distance. He's been 21-4-4 the past 3 seasons. 23-5-4 in the playoffs. It's not a crazy thing to say.

        It's not like being a 20-5-5 guy makes you a superstar or something. I mean Tyreke did it in his rookie year and look where he is now.

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        • Snooch wrote: View Post
          dont need SUPERSTAR talent to win, you need a collection of above average players who all can compete and play their roles to a t.
          Win what? The Raptors are already a perennial playoff team made up of a bunch of above average role players (Carroll, Derozan, JV, Joseph, Lowry) and that is not good enough for people on here. That's fine. I get that. We want more. But.....

          In the last 35 years, what team has won an NBA title without an elite superstar (top 50 player of all time/hall of famer)? The only team I can point to is the 2004 Pistons. Otherwise, every team has guys like: Magic, Bird, Kareem, Jordan, Olajuwon, Duncan, Isiaih, Kobe, Shaq, Dirk, Wade, Lebron, and now Curry. In fact, the only teams in the last 35 years to win a title without multiple hall of famers are likely Dallas and Detroit. So, until Toronto has multiple (or at least one) future hall of fame calibre player, we can safely say Toronto isn't winning an NBA title.

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          • Snooch wrote: View Post
            Sure, he will bench Demar.

            lol

            But like in the post previous, Casey himself has said you need to coach to your players strengths. Obviously he feels that is Demars best, to play isobasketball,.
            Well then its a good thing we know Casey is an idiot.

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            • Axel wrote: View Post
              Two way street though Joey. People keep trying to prop him up to be more than he is, which gets a retort; or vice versa.

              He is still mostly a scorer. His per game figures in other stat categories get ballooned by his usage, which is way above what he should be getting. Yes, he is doing what Casey wants by taking those bad shots and going ISO in the 4th Q, but that doesn't change the fact that they are bad shots and bad decisions.
              Disagree with the bold. As I've pointed out in the past, there are basically 2 posters who perhaps overvalue a bit too much. That's about it. Everyone else is pretty measured in their praise of Demar.

              And what other stat catergories get ballooned because of his usage? Rebounds have nothing to do with Usage .. the only stat catergory I can think of that would benefit from his usage is Assists .. but perhaps his Usage is benefited by the fact that he is now actually dishing out more assists ...


              I also think its a bit unfair to insinuate that 20-4-4 is somehow no big feat, and yet 20-5-5 is some hallowed mark of Elite-ness.
              And even if he did get 20-5-5 you'd just say his stats are "ballooned by usage", so its a no win argument really.

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              • Joey wrote: View Post
                Have you not listened to almost any Casey interview? Those are "Demars shots" and if he "doesn't shoot it, he'll be benched".
                I keep forgetting these are things that he's actually said.
                "My biggest concern as a coach is to not confuse winning with progress." - Steve Kerr
                "If it's unacceptable in defeat, it's unacceptable in victory." - Jeff Van Gundy

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                • Just Is wrote: View Post
                  I keep forgetting these are things that he's actually said.
                  Wait, did he ever say anything about reasons to bench DeMar?

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                  • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                    Wait, did he ever say anything about reasons to bench DeMar?
                    He said something similar last season when I think Demar reached or was near 10 assists in a game.
                    "My biggest concern as a coach is to not confuse winning with progress." - Steve Kerr
                    "If it's unacceptable in defeat, it's unacceptable in victory." - Jeff Van Gundy

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                    • Joey wrote: View Post
                      Disagree with the bold. As I've pointed out in the past, there are basically 2 posters who perhaps overvalue a bit too much. That's about it. Everyone else is pretty measured in their praise of Demar.

                      And what other stat catergories get ballooned because of his usage? Rebounds have nothing to do with Usage .. the only stat catergory I can think of that would benefit from his usage is Assists .. but perhaps his Usage is benefited by the fact that he is now actually dishing out more assists ...


                      I also think its a bit unfair to insinuate that 20-4-4 is somehow no big feat, and yet 20-5-5 is some hallowed mark of Elite-ness.
                      And even if he did get 20-5-5 you'd just say his stats are "ballooned by usage", so its a no win argument really.
                      Well as I highlighted earlier, 20-4-4 is more than twice as common than 20-5-5; so yes, there is a milestone attached to it. Maybe 3 guys per year (usually the same 3 guys) put up 20-5-5, while 20-4-4 is 8. Big difference in tiers there. Do you really believe that rounding 4.2 to 5.0 is no big deal when discussing stats? Basic rounding rules alone dictate otherwise.

                      I simply don't agree that it is just a couple of posters who over-value.
                      Heir, Prince of Cambridge

                      If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.

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                      • Just Is wrote: View Post
                        He said something similar last season when I think Demar reached or was near 10 assists in a game.
                        Ah, so he basically said they want DeMar to play worse basketball or he gets benched....?? Goddamn it.

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                        • slaw wrote: View Post
                          Win what? The Raptors are already a perennial playoff team made up of a bunch of above average role players (Carroll, Derozan, JV, Joseph, Lowry) and that is not good enough for people on here. That's fine. I get that. We want more. But.....

                          In the last 35 years, what team has won an NBA title without an elite superstar (top 50 player of all time/hall of famer)? The only team I can point to is the 2004 Pistons. Otherwise, every team has guys like: Magic, Bird, Kareem, Jordan, Olajuwon, Duncan, Isiaih, Kobe, Shaq, Dirk, Wade, Lebron, and now Curry. In fact, the only teams in the last 35 years to win a title without multiple hall of famers are likely Dallas and Detroit. So, until Toronto has multiple (or at least one) future hall of fame calibre player, we can safely say Toronto isn't winning an NBA title.
                          Raptors had two generational talents in Carter and McGrady and orgainzational ineptitude led to one first round win. Another thing that good teams have had was championship calibre mamagement at the top. Casey would have never survived as a coach on any decent organization. It isnt bad luck that the Cavs had Brown twice

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                          • Axel wrote: View Post
                            Well as I highlighted earlier, 20-4-4 is more than twice as common than 20-5-5; so yes, there is a milestone attached to it. Maybe 3 guys per year (usually the same 3 guys) put up 20-5-5, while 20-4-4 is 8. Big difference in tiers there. Do you really believe that rounding 4.2 to 5.0 is no big deal when discussing stats? Basic rounding rules alone dictate otherwise.

                            I simply don't agree that it is just a couple of posters who over-value.
                            But doing something that only 8 guys in the entire league do, is something to be commended, no? Not something to be picked apart and discredited.
                            I think everyone agrees that Demar isn't on the same level as Lebron, Durant or Curry, and I don't think JWash was implying that Demar is Elite or on the same level. I think he was just trying to illustrate that Demar does more than score, and averaging 4 of each vs 5 of each, still illustrates that point; in my opinion. And even if Demar was averaging 5 of each, instead of 4, it would only be because of "ballooning due to his usage", would it not?


                            And as for the posters that over-value him, I suppose that depends on what you're initial opinion of his value truly is ... I would argue that those who "under-value" him, are actually over-valueing him to make their point, by suggesting he is worth a Max contract, or would be able to net us Top-10 picks and fantastic prospects as nothing more than a rental piece.
                            Last edited by Joey; Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:48 PM.

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                            • white men can't jump wrote: View Post
                              Ah, so he basically said they want DeMar to play worse basketball or he gets benched....?? Goddamn it.
                              Almost literally, yes. LOL He basically said "Demar getting 10 assists is nice and all, but that's not his job. His job is to shoot the ball, and those are shots he normally hits, and if he's not doing his job and taking them, then he will be benched."

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                              • Joey wrote: View Post
                                But doing something that only 8 guys in the entire league do, is something to be commended, no? Not ridiculed or discredited.
                                I think everyone agrees that Demar isn't on the same level as Lebron, Durant or Curry, and I don't think JWash was implying that Demar is Elite or on the same level. I think he was just trying to illustrate that Demar does more than score, and averaging 4 of each vs 5 of each, still illustrates that point; in my opinion. And even if Demar was averaging 5 of each, instead of 4, it would only be because of "ballooning due to his usage", would it not?
                                I mean it's not like 20-5-5 even means that a player is a superstar or whatever. I just said it because 20, 5, 5 are nice numbers that he's close to. Yes technically he's a 20-4-4 guy. Jamal Mashburn had 2 seasons where he averaged 20-5-5 and Tyreke Evans had 1 so it's not indicative of an elite player or superstardom.

                                I just said a guy that puts up DeMar's line will have trade value even at 20M per year in the new cap environment.

                                Only guys to get 20-4-4 in the last 3 seasons (including this year) are KD, Harden, Curry, LeBron, Love, Lillard, Westbrook, Blake Griffin, Lowry, George, DeRozan, Knight and Kobe. Again I am in no way shape or form saying that DeRozan is on the same level as all the other guys on that list. But almost everyone listed there is untouchable except Lowry, DD and Knight. So someone who can get those numbers is going to have trade value. That's part of the reason why I think it would be worth it to sign DeMar for 20M per year, because even if you want to move on it's not like you'd have to give away assets to do so, you'd likely get them in return.

                                I mean Gay was almost making 20M per year under a much smaller salary cap and playing very poorly, yet was still able to get some value back in two trades (from Memphis to Toronto and from Toronto to Sacramento). It's not like DD would become an albatross.
                                Last edited by JWash; Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:53 PM.

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