Snooch wrote:
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I hate his production most of the time. But as a player? He can do a lot more than what his production would indicate. A coach that forces this guy to be more catch and shoot.. to get more cuts.. (you know, simple plays) would maximize his efficiency.
Kawhi Leonard in this system is shooting 44% from the field... max.
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Axel wrote: View PostYet you are the one who called him a 20-5-5 guy....
It's not like being a 20-5-5 guy makes you a superstar or something. I mean Tyreke did it in his rookie year and look where he is now.
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Snooch wrote: View Postdont need SUPERSTAR talent to win, you need a collection of above average players who all can compete and play their roles to a t.
In the last 35 years, what team has won an NBA title without an elite superstar (top 50 player of all time/hall of famer)? The only team I can point to is the 2004 Pistons. Otherwise, every team has guys like: Magic, Bird, Kareem, Jordan, Olajuwon, Duncan, Isiaih, Kobe, Shaq, Dirk, Wade, Lebron, and now Curry. In fact, the only teams in the last 35 years to win a title without multiple hall of famers are likely Dallas and Detroit. So, until Toronto has multiple (or at least one) future hall of fame calibre player, we can safely say Toronto isn't winning an NBA title.
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Axel wrote: View PostTwo way street though Joey. People keep trying to prop him up to be more than he is, which gets a retort; or vice versa.
He is still mostly a scorer. His per game figures in other stat categories get ballooned by his usage, which is way above what he should be getting. Yes, he is doing what Casey wants by taking those bad shots and going ISO in the 4th Q, but that doesn't change the fact that they are bad shots and bad decisions.
And what other stat catergories get ballooned because of his usage? Rebounds have nothing to do with Usage .. the only stat catergory I can think of that would benefit from his usage is Assists .. but perhaps his Usage is benefited by the fact that he is now actually dishing out more assists ...
I also think its a bit unfair to insinuate that 20-4-4 is somehow no big feat, and yet 20-5-5 is some hallowed mark of Elite-ness.
And even if he did get 20-5-5 you'd just say his stats are "ballooned by usage", so its a no win argument really.
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Joey wrote: View PostHave you not listened to almost any Casey interview? Those are "Demars shots" and if he "doesn't shoot it, he'll be benched"."My biggest concern as a coach is to not confuse winning with progress." - Steve Kerr
"If it's unacceptable in defeat, it's unacceptable in victory." - Jeff Van Gundy
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white men can't jump wrote: View PostWait, did he ever say anything about reasons to bench DeMar?"My biggest concern as a coach is to not confuse winning with progress." - Steve Kerr
"If it's unacceptable in defeat, it's unacceptable in victory." - Jeff Van Gundy
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Joey wrote: View PostDisagree with the bold. As I've pointed out in the past, there are basically 2 posters who perhaps overvalue a bit too much. That's about it. Everyone else is pretty measured in their praise of Demar.
And what other stat catergories get ballooned because of his usage? Rebounds have nothing to do with Usage .. the only stat catergory I can think of that would benefit from his usage is Assists .. but perhaps his Usage is benefited by the fact that he is now actually dishing out more assists ...
I also think its a bit unfair to insinuate that 20-4-4 is somehow no big feat, and yet 20-5-5 is some hallowed mark of Elite-ness.
And even if he did get 20-5-5 you'd just say his stats are "ballooned by usage", so its a no win argument really.
I simply don't agree that it is just a couple of posters who over-value.Heir, Prince of Cambridge
If you see KeonClark in the wasteland, please share your food and water with him.
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slaw wrote: View PostWin what? The Raptors are already a perennial playoff team made up of a bunch of above average role players (Carroll, Derozan, JV, Joseph, Lowry) and that is not good enough for people on here. That's fine. I get that. We want more. But.....
In the last 35 years, what team has won an NBA title without an elite superstar (top 50 player of all time/hall of famer)? The only team I can point to is the 2004 Pistons. Otherwise, every team has guys like: Magic, Bird, Kareem, Jordan, Olajuwon, Duncan, Isiaih, Kobe, Shaq, Dirk, Wade, Lebron, and now Curry. In fact, the only teams in the last 35 years to win a title without multiple hall of famers are likely Dallas and Detroit. So, until Toronto has multiple (or at least one) future hall of fame calibre player, we can safely say Toronto isn't winning an NBA title.
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Axel wrote: View PostWell as I highlighted earlier, 20-4-4 is more than twice as common than 20-5-5; so yes, there is a milestone attached to it. Maybe 3 guys per year (usually the same 3 guys) put up 20-5-5, while 20-4-4 is 8. Big difference in tiers there. Do you really believe that rounding 4.2 to 5.0 is no big deal when discussing stats? Basic rounding rules alone dictate otherwise.
I simply don't agree that it is just a couple of posters who over-value.
I think everyone agrees that Demar isn't on the same level as Lebron, Durant or Curry, and I don't think JWash was implying that Demar is Elite or on the same level. I think he was just trying to illustrate that Demar does more than score, and averaging 4 of each vs 5 of each, still illustrates that point; in my opinion. And even if Demar was averaging 5 of each, instead of 4, it would only be because of "ballooning due to his usage", would it not?
And as for the posters that over-value him, I suppose that depends on what you're initial opinion of his value truly is ... I would argue that those who "under-value" him, are actually over-valueing him to make their point, by suggesting he is worth a Max contract, or would be able to net us Top-10 picks and fantastic prospects as nothing more than a rental piece.Last edited by Joey; Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:48 PM.
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white men can't jump wrote: View PostAh, so he basically said they want DeMar to play worse basketball or he gets benched....?? Goddamn it.
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Joey wrote: View PostBut doing something that only 8 guys in the entire league do, is something to be commended, no? Not ridiculed or discredited.
I think everyone agrees that Demar isn't on the same level as Lebron, Durant or Curry, and I don't think JWash was implying that Demar is Elite or on the same level. I think he was just trying to illustrate that Demar does more than score, and averaging 4 of each vs 5 of each, still illustrates that point; in my opinion. And even if Demar was averaging 5 of each, instead of 4, it would only be because of "ballooning due to his usage", would it not?
I just said a guy that puts up DeMar's line will have trade value even at 20M per year in the new cap environment.
Only guys to get 20-4-4 in the last 3 seasons (including this year) are KD, Harden, Curry, LeBron, Love, Lillard, Westbrook, Blake Griffin, Lowry, George, DeRozan, Knight and Kobe. Again I am in no way shape or form saying that DeRozan is on the same level as all the other guys on that list. But almost everyone listed there is untouchable except Lowry, DD and Knight. So someone who can get those numbers is going to have trade value. That's part of the reason why I think it would be worth it to sign DeMar for 20M per year, because even if you want to move on it's not like you'd have to give away assets to do so, you'd likely get them in return.
I mean Gay was almost making 20M per year under a much smaller salary cap and playing very poorly, yet was still able to get some value back in two trades (from Memphis to Toronto and from Toronto to Sacramento). It's not like DD would become an albatross.Last edited by JWash; Tue Dec 1, 2015, 02:53 PM.
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