View Poll Results: Grade Derozan's Season.

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    1 1.49%
  • B

    18 26.87%
  • C

    40 59.70%
  • D

    8 11.94%
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    0 0%
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Thread: Everything Demar Derozan

  1. #2081
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    LOL ......It always makes me laugh when posters pretend like they can see the future. Derozan currently makes 3.34 million THIS YEAR. He's a FRICKEN bargain THIS YEAR! I don't know the future.....maybe he won't live up to the contract (it's happened before) BUT to pretend like its a for sure thing that he will not is complete lunacy! (especially with DD's work ethic).

    I believe that there are other factors that go into a player's salary than just PER. i.e. Injury history, upside, work ethic, work load, etc. No one can say whether it was smart or dumb of BC just yet (because we dont know the future).

    Another poster said it best.... Look at Amir Johnson....I used to read that his contract was too big and how dumb BC was BUT who in their right mind would say that shit now?? Amir earned EVERY PENNY in his contract.

    I have no doubt Demar will look like a bargain 2-3 years down the road. OBVIOUSLY, its on Demar to prove you haters wrong.
    That's quite the contradictory statement there, my friend.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  2. #2082
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    lol, anything you don't like hearing is "hate".
    Stop laughing.....i'm serious!

    Anyone that's been on these forums for the past few years KNOW EXACTLY where you stand Nilanka! I can't recall if you are one of the CLOWNS that think Landry Fields and Terrence "I'm not ready for this" Ross can make up for the loss of DD??

    Whiners.....wahhhh "Demar is not great yet"....wahhhhh.....LMAO All these players you whiners list (DD not top 10 SG?) are NOT going anywhere. So keep crying - you lose credibility with each passing year as Demar gets better.

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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Are you a talent evaluator?? He currently makes 3.34 million (this year). Would you say he's underpaid for his production this year????

    At very least wait until he starts getting paid 9.5 million before you roast the guy! Demar will have the summer to work on his game to prove that he IS worth that $$. No need to be so negative NOW ....are you psychic?? Do you have a magical crystal ball? I doubt it....

    In the meantime you should probably spend your time attacking players that are CURRENTLY not worth their contract -- HATER
    Is there a reason you replied to that response (which was a reply to a different poster) instead of replying to my response to your message? I laid out all my rationale in my previous response to you; perhaps you missed that one.

    First, the discussion is about DeRozan, not other Raptors. If you want to have discussion about other Raptors, then I'd be happy to join in, but an opinion/evaluation of DeRozan is mutually exclusive to an opinion/evaluation of any other player. For the record, I used to be a huge Bargnani supporter but have accepted the fact that he and the Raptors need a fresh start without each other. I am also a huge fan of Gay, but have been quite alarmed at his continued poor efficiency and suspect shot selection (though I would argue that his peripheral stats and intangible benefits to the team are far greater than any other Raptor, buying him a little bit of breathing room for the time being).

    Second, DeRozan is nearly done his 4th NBA season and any improvement he's made over those 4 seasons has been minor. His stats speak to this, it is a fact, not just my opinion. We've also heard every previous season that he was working hard in the gym to improve his game and, for a few games, we witness the fruits of his labor. However, none of his improvements have been sustained, certainly not at a very high level (just check out his 3pt shooting stats as evidence of this, despite coming out of 2 offseasons in which he was praised for putting in time & effort to improve his 3pt shot). I'd be shocked if the results of this offseason prove to be significantly different than the results coming out of the last 4 offseasons. DeRozan only has 20 games remaining on his old contract after tonight's game, so I think you're just splitting hairs by trying to differentiate the $3.34M DeRozan of today and the $9.5M DeRozan of 21 games from now.

    For DeRozan, the explanations are starting to sound like excuses. DeRozan supporters are starting to sound eerily reminiscent of Bargnani supporters over the past few seasons - which I readily admit to being, so I know what it is to be blinded by 'upside' and 'potential' and all the positive attributes that the player brings to the table. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good his work ethic is, how much he likes Toronto or what anybody else says about him (ie: Payton, Gay, BC, DC, RR posters); all that matters is performance and production on the court. I challenge any DeRozan supporter to study his stats (basic or advanced) blindly, without knowing whose stats you're looking at (especially when compared to other starting wings in the league) - I seriously doubt anybody would be supporting him nearly as strongly and passionately as people currently are. You need to be unbiased and objective when evaluating players. I'm not an NBA talent evaluator by any stretch, but I also don't disgregard statistics simply because I really like the guy.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Mar 6th, 2013 at 04:41 PM.

  4. #2084
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    Quote Chr1s1anL wrote: View Post
    I'll say it again how can you even hate on this kid?
    +1

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    That's quite the contradictory statement there, my friend.
    I have no doubt (my opinion).....Yet I cant tell the future.....Geez. You took 4 paragraphs - highlighted two sentences and feel like you accomplished something.....I wonder what that was....hmmmm LOL

  6. #2086
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Stop laughing.....i'm serious!

    Anyone that's been on these forums for the past few years KNOW EXACTLY where you stand Nilanka! I can't recall if you are one of the CLOWNS that think Landry Fields and Terrence "I'm not ready for this" Ross can make up for the loss of DD??

    Whiners.....wahhhh "Demar is not great yet"....wahhhhh.....LMAO All these players you whiners list (DD not top 10 SG?) are NOT going anywhere. So keep crying - you lose credibility with each passing year as Demar gets better.
    There have been plenty of cogent posts discussing why DeRozan may not be our answer at SG. I don't feel the need to re-hash them because I know you won't change your mind.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

  7. #2087
    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    I have no doubt (my opinion).....Yet I cant tell the future.....Geez. You took 4 paragraphs - highlighted two sentences and feel like you accomplished something.....I wonder what that was....hmmmm LOL
    If you have "no doubt", that means you know exactly how things will turn out in the future.

    Besides, the only reason I pointed it out is because you were so hard on TRex for doing the same thing.
    "I don't lie. I willfully participate in a campaign of misinformation." - Fox Mulder

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Is there a reason you replied to that response (which was a reply to a different poster) instead of replying to my response to your message? I laid out all my rationale in my previous response to you; perhaps you missed that one.

    First, the discussion is about DeRozan, not other Raptors. If you want to have discussion about other Raptors, then I'd be happy to join in, but an opinion/evaluation of DeRozan is mutually exclusive to an opinion/evaluation of any other player. For the record, I used to be a huge Bargnani supporter but have accepted the fact that he and the Raptors need a fresh start without each other. I am also a huge fan of Gay, but have been quite alarmed at his continued poor efficiency and suspect shot selection (though I would argue that his peripheral stats and intangible benefits to the team are far greater than any other Raptor, buying him a little bit of breathing room for the time being).

    Second, DeRozan is nearly done his 4th NBA season and any improvement he's made over those 4 seasons has been minor. His stats speak to this, it is a fact, not just my opinion. We've also heard every previous season that he was working hard in the gym to improve his game and, for a few games, we witness the fruits of his labor. However, none of his improvements have been sustained, certainly not a very high level (just check out his 3pt shooting stats as evidence of this, despite coming out of 2 offseasons in which he was praised for putting in time & effort to improve his 3pt shot). I'd be shocked if the results of this offseason prove to be significantly different than the results coming out of the last 4 offseasons. DeRozan only has 20 games remaining on his old contract after tonight's game, so I think you're just splitting hairs by trying to differentiate the $3.34M DeRozan of today and the $9.5M DeRozan of 21 games from now.

    For DeRozan, the explanations are starting to sound like excuses. DeRozan supporters are starting to sound eerily reminiscent of Bargnani supporters over the past few seasons - which I readily admit to being, so I know what it is to be blinded by 'upside' and 'potential' and all the positive attributes that the player brings to the table. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good his work ethic is, how much he likes Toronto or what anybody else says about him (ie: Payton, Gay, BC, DC, RR posters); all that matters is performance and production on the court. I challenge any DeRozan supporter to study his stats (basic or advanced) blindly, without knowing whose stats you're looking at (especially when compared to other starting wings in the league) - I seriously doubt anybody would be supporting him nearly as strongly and passionately as people currently are. You need to be unbiased and objective when evaluating players. I'm not an NBA talent evaluator by any stretch, but I also don't disgregard statistic simply because I really like the guy.
    Is he underpaid for his CURRENT contract OR not??

    Who's disregarding statistics?? YOU ARE dude. I provided stats to back up my point that he IS improving. *4.1 rpg (is more than your PAL Bargnani who grabs 3.7 rpg)*. You're a reminder of the sadness we've all experienced with Bargs. I - like you defended him (give him time i said). I gave him time and he's still soft, can't rebound, worse shooter, etc.

    I realize that we were both BURNT by Bargs BUT Demar is not Bargnani. He works hard. He puts pressure on the defence. He gets into the paint - he draws fouls. He's often over matched by wiser, stronger defenders / sometimes he abuses smaller, shorter defenders. Demar BELONGS in the NBA....sadly Bargnani appears to be playing his way out.

    I'm very unbiased.....I gave Bargnani time to develop his game and I will do the same for Demar. Have you suddenly saw the light because of Bargnani?? Who's unbiased now??

  9. #2089
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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    If you have "no doubt", that means you know exactly how things will turn out in the future.

    Besides, the only reason I pointed it out is because you were so hard on TRex for doing the same thing.
    TRex was acting like whiney little hater....lol That's why i was soo hard on him. Your pointing it out because you've hated on Demar for years.

    Anyone who says that Demar hasn't improved is hating (IMO). Anyone that says he is one-dimensional is also hating. His improvement passes the eye test for me and the stats also back it up.

  10. #2090
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    Is he underpaid for his CURRENT contract OR not??

    Who's disregarding statistics?? YOU ARE dude. I provided stats to back up my point that he IS improving. *4.1 rpg (is more than your PAL Bargnani who grabs 3.7 rpg)*. You're a reminder of the sadness we've all experienced with Bargs. I - like you defended him (give him time i said). I gave him time and he's still soft, can't rebound, worse shooter, etc.

    I realize that we were both BURNT by Bargs BUT Demar is not Bargnani. He works hard. He puts pressure on the defence. He gets into the paint - he draws fouls. He's often over matched by wiser, stronger defenders / sometimes he abuses smaller, shorter defenders. Demar BELONGS in the NBA....sadly Bargnani appears to be playing his way out.

    I'm very unbiased.....I gave Bargnani time to develop his game and I will do the same for Demar. Have you suddenly saw the light because of Bargnani?? Who's unbiased now??
    Ever since DeRozan finalized his contract extension, it has been absorbed into his "current" contract, so you can't just differentiate the two. If you want me to bite I will - he's probably a MLE type player, meaning he's worth about $5M per season. He's not "underpaid" though, since he's been on a rookie-scale contract through the end of this season. His salary jumps to $9.5M next season, which you can't simply ignore. DeRozan would have to experience unheard of improvements over the next 21 games and a single offseason, to raise his talent/production up to the level expected of a $9.5M player, which is why I still insist that he's not worth his contract moving forward.

    You obviously missed my first response to you (or are ignoring it), where I presented additional stats that illustrated his alarming lack of improvement in his key area (scoring), while pointing out both his below avergae shooting % and horrendous scoring efficiency (on the season it takes him an average of 15 shots to score an average of 18 points!). Improving his RPG and APG by about 0.5 PG each, over his career averages, is hardly proof of significant, sustainable improvements. All you're doing is pointing out the only stats that have improved, but even they aren't up to levels that would be considered "good" or "above average" by league standards.

    I also never questioned DeRozan's place in the NBA, so please don't put words in my mouth to bolster your support. All I ever questioned was whether or not DeRozan should be considered a legit long-term starting caliber SG (let alone potential all-star caliber), worthy of his $9.5M per season contract (looking beyond this year), as part of the team's core group of players to be built around. I would argue that the statistics all point decidedly to "no" as of today. I also never said that there's absolutely no chance of that "no" becoming a "yes", but after 4 years in the league and with both stats and trends working against him, it seems incredibly unlikely of ever coming to fruition.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Mar 6th, 2013 at 05:15 PM.

  11. #2091
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    TRex was acting like whiney little hater....lol That's why i was soo hard on him. Your pointing it out because you've hated on Demar for years.

    Anyone who says that Demar hasn't improved is hating (IMO). Anyone that says he is one-dimensional is also hating. His improvement passes the eye test for me and the stats also back it up.
    Pointing out weaknesses and below average statistics is NOT hating.

    Scoring is the only statistical area where DeRozan is even average, so I fail to see another dimension where he could be considered "good" or "above average". Yes he has improved his RPG and APG stats, but even his improved stats in those areas are nowhere close to being above average. Again, pointing out statistical fact is NOT hating.

    The statistics for his one "good" dimension (scoring) show that he is far below average for 3pt shooting (25.6% this season / 22.4% career) and is very inefficient doing his scoring (averages 14.9 shots per game to average 17.7 points per game). Again, pointing out statistical fact is NOT hating.


    I don't expect to change your mind about DeRozan, nor am I trying to.

    I don't appreciate being called a "hater" because I rely on factual, objective statistics to help shape my evaluation of a particular player.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Mar 6th, 2013 at 05:16 PM.

  12. #2092
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    Quote special1 wrote: View Post
    TRex was acting like whiney little hater....lol That's why i was soo hard on him. Your pointing it out because you've hated on Demar for years.

    Anyone who says that Demar hasn't improved is hating (IMO). Anyone that says he is one-dimensional is also hating. His improvement passes the eye test for me and the stats also back it up.
    I think you're just a DeRozan homer.

    DeRozan just like Bargnani is a ONE DIMENSIONAL player. He's made some improvements yes. But it's not good enough. He's been in the league for FOUR years and his progression as a player is alarming. He's averaging 37mins a game this year but only averaging 4rbs and 2ast a game. That is just not good enough. There are alot of games this year where he plays 35+ mins and only get 1rb and 1ast. GS game the other night was a great example. 39mins 1rbs and 4ast. NOT GOOD ENOUGH. Defensively he's not a factor. And NO he's not an average defender.

    Tired of all the so called "work ethic" excuse by the DeRozan lovers. I respect his work ethic but at the end of the day i want to see results. Four years as a pro and i've seen very LITTLE improvement.
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Is there a reason you replied to that response (which was a reply to a different poster) instead of replying to my response to your message? I laid out all my rationale in my previous response to you; perhaps you missed that one.

    First, the discussion is about DeRozan, not other Raptors. If you want to have discussion about other Raptors, then I'd be happy to join in, but an opinion/evaluation of DeRozan is mutually exclusive to an opinion/evaluation of any other player. For the record, I used to be a huge Bargnani supporter but have accepted the fact that he and the Raptors need a fresh start without each other. I am also a huge fan of Gay, but have been quite alarmed at his continued poor efficiency and suspect shot selection (though I would argue that his peripheral stats and intangible benefits to the team are far greater than any other Raptor, buying him a little bit of breathing room for the time being).

    Second, DeRozan is nearly done his 4th NBA season and any improvement he's made over those 4 seasons has been minor. His stats speak to this, it is a fact, not just my opinion. We've also heard every previous season that he was working hard in the gym to improve his game and, for a few games, we witness the fruits of his labor. However, none of his improvements have been sustained, certainly not at a very high level (just check out his 3pt shooting stats as evidence of this, despite coming out of 2 offseasons in which he was praised for putting in time & effort to improve his 3pt shot). I'd be shocked if the results of this offseason prove to be significantly different than the results coming out of the last 4 offseasons. DeRozan only has 20 games remaining on his old contract after tonight's game, so I think you're just splitting hairs by trying to differentiate the $3.34M DeRozan of today and the $9.5M DeRozan of 21 games from now.

    For DeRozan, the explanations are starting to sound like excuses. DeRozan supporters are starting to sound eerily reminiscent of Bargnani supporters over the past few seasons - which I readily admit to being, so I know what it is to be blinded by 'upside' and 'potential' and all the positive attributes that the player brings to the table. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how good his work ethic is, how much he likes Toronto or what anybody else says about him (ie: Payton, Gay, BC, DC, RR posters); all that matters is performance and production on the court. I challenge any DeRozan supporter to study his stats (basic or advanced) blindly, without knowing whose stats you're looking at (especially when compared to other starting wings in the league) - I seriously doubt anybody would be supporting him nearly as strongly and passionately as people currently are. You need to be unbiased and objective when evaluating players. I'm not an NBA talent evaluator by any stretch, but I also don't disgregard statistics simply because I really like the guy.
    I hate just going by blind stats, but you asked:

    Kobe Bryant, one of the best players to ever play the game, in his 3rd year:
    FG% .468, 3P% .267, FTAs 5.8, FT% .839, RBs 5.3, ASTs 3.8, STLs 1.4, TOs, 3.1, PTs 19.9

    DD in his 4th year, after 3rd year abomination of no summer coaching, no training camp, insanely compressed season
    FG% .431, 3P% .256, FTAs 5.4, FT% .833, RBs 4.1, ASTs 2.6, STLs 1.0, TOs, 1.8, PTs 17.7

    Not comparing the two, but following your challenge to compare stats of starting SGs. In this case with one of the best to ever play, at a similar point in their careers. Considering DDs stats aren't really that far off of one of the best at similar stage of career, is it safe to say that DD isn't a one dimensional nobody whose hard work isn't going to be enough to earn his salqary next year? Seriously, it boils down to 1 RB, 1 Ast, .4 STLs, 1.3 less TOs. A whole 3% more in FG%, but note that Kobe had an identical FG% to DDs current year, in his 9th year.

    Hey, you asked about stats as some proof. Considering DD has a huge work ethic, similar to Kobe then and still, I think it's way too premature to say that DD won't earn his contract starting next year. He doesn't have to be a HOFer, never mind one of the best ever, to live up to $9.5M in today's NBA.

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I hate just going by blind stats, but you asked:

    Kobe Bryant, one of the best players to ever play the game, in his 3rd year:
    FG% .468, 3P% .267, FTAs 5.8, FT% .839, RBs 5.3, ASTs 3.8, STLs 1.4, TOs, 3.1, PTs 19.9

    DD in his 4th year, after 3rd year abomination of no summer coaching, no training camp, insanely compressed season
    FG% .431, 3P% .256, FTAs 5.4, FT% .833, RBs 4.1, ASTs 2.6, STLs 1.0, TOs, 1.8, PTs 17.7

    Not comparing the two, but following your challenge to compare stats of starting SGs. In this case with one of the best to ever play, at a similar point in their careers. Considering DDs stats aren't really that far off of one of the best at similar stage of career, is it safe to say that DD isn't a one dimensional nobody whose hard work isn't going to be enough to earn his salqary next year? Seriously, it boils down to 1 RB, 1 Ast, .4 STLs, 1.3 less TOs. A whole 3% more in FG%, but note that Kobe had an identical FG% to DDs current year, in his 9th year.

    Hey, you asked about stats as some proof. Considering DD has a huge work ethic, similar to Kobe then and still, I think it's way too premature to say that DD won't earn his contract starting next year. He doesn't have to be a HOFer, never mind one of the best ever, to live up to $9.5M in today's NBA.
    I was referring to all the starting wings in the league this season.

    It's easy to find 2 statlines to compare in order to support any point of view.

    I admitted he could live up to his contract either next season or some later time during it. However, his talent, his progression and his salary all seem to trend toward making that highly improbable. Also, in my first response to special1, I made it quite clear that I sincerely hope that DeRozan blossoms and exceeds all expectations for him as a Raptor... but I can't ignore the stats or the parallels I see to Bargnani's [lack of sustained] improvements.

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    Quote p00ka wrote: View Post
    I hate just going by blind stats, but you asked:

    Kobe Bryant, one of the best players to ever play the game, in his 3rd year:
    FG% .468, 3P% .267, FTAs 5.8, FT% .839, RBs 5.3, ASTs 3.8, STLs 1.4, TOs, 3.1, PTs 19.9

    DD in his 4th year, after 3rd year abomination of no summer coaching, no training camp, insanely compressed season
    FG% .431, 3P% .256, FTAs 5.4, FT% .833, RBs 4.1, ASTs 2.6, STLs 1.0, TOs, 1.8, PTs 17.7

    Not comparing the two, but following your challenge to compare stats of starting SGs. In this case with one of the best to ever play, at a similar point in their careers. Considering DDs stats aren't really that far off of one of the best at similar stage of career, is it safe to say that DD isn't a one dimensional nobody whose hard work isn't going to be enough to earn his salqary next year? Seriously, it boils down to 1 RB, 1 Ast, .4 STLs, 1.3 less TOs. A whole 3% more in FG%, but note that Kobe had an identical FG% to DDs current year, in his 9th year.

    Hey, you asked about stats as some proof. Considering DD has a huge work ethic, similar to Kobe then and still, I think it's way too premature to say that DD won't earn his contract starting next year. He doesn't have to be a HOFer, never mind one of the best ever, to live up to $9.5M in today's NBA.
    Kobe was 20.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Kobe was 20.
    kobe also had to suffer through a league lockout in the 98-99 season, something p00ka doesn't want to mention, along with the fact that kobe came right out of highschool, making him younger than derozan
    Last edited by akashsingh; Wed Mar 6th, 2013 at 06:09 PM.

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    I really hope derozan can live up to the money he's making next season, so we can trade him. He has such bad footwork, and it sets him up to fail. I think that is what I hate about him the most.

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    You guys crack me up. Great read.

    1. Stats aside, DeRozan is a better basketball player this year than he was last year. He's never going to be a perennial all-star. I just want him to be the best above average basketball player that he can be. If he makes a couple of all-star games in his career. Great!

    2. The Raptors were not going to let him walk next year. So they signed him to the best deal they could before he hit the open market. Somebody was going to offer something stupid. Wasn't Taj Gibson given the same contract? The guy's 27-28 years old already and a backup.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Kobe was 20.
    Quote akashsingh wrote: View Post
    kobe also had to suffer through a league lockout in the 98-99 season, something p00ka doesn't want to mention, along with the fact that kobe came right out of highschool, making him younger than derozan
    You both touch on my objection to judging based on blind stats comparisons. Thank you.

    CalgaryRapsFan wants to compare stats of this year's crop of starting SGs to prove some point, yet these players play on different teams, with different teammates, playing different styles, with different opponent mixes, and a different schedule,,,,, and different ages, with different levels of experience. But you guys want to talk different age as the difference factor over stage of career? Okay, carry on.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I was referring to all the starting wings in the league this season.

    It's easy to find 2 statlines to compare in order to support any point of view.


    I admitted he could live up to his contract either next season or some later time during it. However, his talent, his progression and his salary all seem to trend toward making that highly improbable. Also, in my first response to special1, I made it quite clear that I sincerely hope that DeRozan blossoms and exceeds all expectations for him as a Raptor... but I can't ignore the stats or the parallels I see to Bargnani's [lack of sustained] improvements.
    1. see my previous post above

    2.Bold: Oh, so only compare this year's stat lines that are easy to find to support your point of view.

    As I said, I'm not a fan of blind stats, but how is Kobe's stat line, at similar point in their careers, any less relevant than a current year stat line of a player playing with different teammates, with different schedules, as well as a myriad of other different factors? You're right: it's easy to find 2 stat lines to support ANY point of view, which lessens the validity/relevance of any comparison.

    As far as your opinion of what's probable and what's not, that's a guess for you as much as it is for me. I'm just pointing out that stats, as you asked for, far and away don't prove a thing as far as what his continued progress will produce next year. This year he's a bargain at his salary, and improving in all aspects of the game, despite claims to the contrary.

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