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Thread: Can we stop blaming DD now for taking away Ross/JV's opportunity?

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    Default Can we stop blaming DD now for taking away Ross/JV's opportunity?

    Seems like a lot of people use DeRozan's high usage and mediocre shot selection as an excuse for why T-Ross and JV aren't able to blossom into productive players. But he's not there right now and those two have EVERY opportunity to really show how great they can be right now, and they aren't taking advantage of it.

    In 5 (4.5) games without DD, Jonas is playing horribly despite his minutes being increased to just shy of 30 a game (29.4):

    9.6ppg, 8.4rpg on 43.2 FG%

    And people wonder why this guy gets benched for 2Pat late in games. I love JV and want him to be successful, but he doesn't do anything right now that Amir can't do (and do better I might add) at the center spot. Meanwhile 2Pat provides the ability to stretch the floor while being able to guard PFs effectively and some slower 3s.


    Same concept goes for Ross. While he's still been very efficient, he's not making any more impact on the game than he does normally which is unacceptable considering he's basically the #2 or 3 option on offense right now. His minutes have gone up to 30.6 a game over the last 5:

    All he's doing is putting up 12.8ppg and 4rpg.

    Idk why these guys are just standing around thinking that Lowry is gonna drop 40 every game to make up for DeMar's 20 every night. Both of these guys need to produce WAY more with this opportunity and show that they're actually worth a damn as prospects.

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    Raptors Republic Starter TeamEd's Avatar
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    Quote NaijaBoy17 wrote: View Post
    Seems like a lot of people use DeRozan's high usage and mediocre shot selection as an excuse for why T-Ross and JV aren't able to blossom into productive players. But he's not there right now and those two have EVERY opportunity to really show how great they can be right now, and they aren't taking advantage of it.

    In 5 (4.5) games without DD, Jonas is playing horribly despite his minutes being increased to just shy of 30 a game (29.4):

    9.6ppg, 8.4rpg on 43.2 FG%

    And people wonder why this guy gets benched for 2Pat late in games. I love JV and want him to be successful, but he doesn't do anything right now that Amir can't do (and do better I might add) at the center spot. Meanwhile 2Pat provides the ability to stretch the floor while being able to guard PFs effectively and some slower 3s.


    Same concept goes for Ross. While he's still been very efficient, he's not making any more impact on the game than he does normally which is unacceptable considering he's basically the #2 or 3 option on offense right now. His minutes have gone up to 30.6 a game over the last 5:

    All he's doing is putting up 12.8ppg and 4rpg.

    Idk why these guys are just standing around thinking that Lowry is gonna drop 40 every game to make up for DeMar's 20 every night. Both of these guys need to produce WAY more with this opportunity and show that they're actually worth a damn as prospects.
    Well, for Ross's offence to to match his current talent it really is a matter of him not getting many plays called for him even with DD out. As much as we think he should be a driving player, that's not his game at the moment. He really can't create his own shots with any efficiency. Right now, his best offense is spot up shooting and the team doesn't run many plays to let him thrive off those shots. He's averaging maybe 9.5 FGA/game for that 12.8ppg. The team is not featuring his offence any more with DD out. DD's opportunities are mostly getting split between Lowry and GV.
    / Ros also getting benched from foul trouble and defense. So, yeah, he can improve. But, we all know that.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TRex's Avatar
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    You know, sometimes i hate being right. But what did i say when DeRozan went down? some people here were so excited that Ross and JV will finally get their chance. And i said they're going to get exposed, JV specially because he's not as good as some of you people think. He's not "that guy" he's an energy guy. And i know i mentioned this name for months now, ROBIN LOPEZ. Thats the type of player JV is. Not a bad player to be compared to. Lopez is a good player who's having a better season than JV. Problem is, some people here expects JV to be the second coming of Wilt Chamberlain smh.

    As for Ross, he's a good player when he's making his 3's. But when he's not making his 3's like last night, he's pretty much useless. 6 points 2 airballs last night.
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    Quote TeamEd wrote: View Post
    The team is not featuring his offence any more with DD out. DD's opportunities are mostly getting split between Lowry and GV.
    This basically sums it all up. The OP is completely ignoring how the offence is run affects who gets what opportunities. People were hoping for some variations to the offence to take advantage of Ross/JV skills while DD is out. So far, we haven't seen that at all. This thread means nothing.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote TRex wrote: View Post
    You know, sometimes i hate being right. But what did i say when DeRozan went down? some people here were so excited that Ross and JV will finally get their chance. And i said they're going to get exposed, JV specially because he's not as good as some of you people think. He's not "that guy" he's an energy guy. And i know i mentioned this name for months now, ROBIN LOPEZ. Thats the type of player JV is. Not a bad player to be compared to. Lopez is a good player who's having a better season than JV. Problem is, some people here expects JV to be the second coming of Wilt Chamberlain smh.

    As for Ross, he's a good player when he's making his 3's. But when he's not making his 3's like last night, he's pretty much useless. 6 points 2 airballs last night.
    JV has way more talent than Robin Lopez. I love what Lopez brings but he might be comparable to JV's floor, not his ceiling.

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    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Blame can definitely be shifted from DeRozan.

    It can fall squarely on Casey now.

    Team is too ISO based with a lack of player and ball movement - it really is bad basketball at times.


    While I'm not happy DeRozan got injured, the silver lining has not presented itself for Ross. He is still playing SF with the back up PGs taking over SG duties. He still has not had an opportunity at his true position. I don't think Ross is going to flourish in Toronto. A place like Atlanta or San Antonio would suit him very good as those team value ball movement and creating open catch and shoot opportunities - his strength.


    As for JV, his numbers haven't been great but he is still managing a respectable 1.3 points per shot. 8.5 rebounds in under 30 minutes is nothing to scoff at either. The offense has hardly changed to give him more opportunities. He was averaging 7.5 shots pre injury and he is taking 7.5 shots post injury - despite an uptick in minutes. Sadly for JV it looks like someone American History X'ed his puppy. I don't know what his issue is but something isn't right. He does look stiff and slow and I would also add frustrated and mentally absent at times. He is doing nothing to help his cause and I can only hope he overcomes whatever is eating away at him. Luckily he has always started each year slow so hopefully he gets some momentum going soon - so there is still hope for the season.
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    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...012350662.html

    The similarities to Mark Jackson is eery.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar Axel's Avatar
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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...012350662.html

    The similarities to Mark Jackson is eery.
    No idea how this this relevant to the topic. Are you saying Casey doesn't have good assistants?

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    Quote Axel wrote: View Post
    No idea how this this relevant to the topic. Are you saying Casey doesn't have good assistants?
    Caseys assistant were replaced by management and he runs isolation set with guards. Mark Jackson improved the GSW defense won 50 games (twice) and won first round series and was a terrible coach. Casey has done less and is worse

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    Quote raptors999 wrote: View Post
    http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ba...012350662.html

    The similarities to Mark Jackson is eery.
    That's rough.

    One ray of hope is that Casey's problem likely (I don't know the man) has less to do with ego and more to do with knowledge. He's still relatively new at this and has a lot to learn. If the offense hasn't made a turnaround by next season, I'd cut my ties and find someone else. But, if he shows growth and development? Well, there really is something to be said for chemistry, and he has that with these players (save Valenciunas) right now.

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    Quote Garbo wrote: View Post
    That's rough.

    One ray of hope is that Casey's problem likely (I don't know the man) has less to do with ego and more to do with knowledge. He's still relatively new at this and has a lot to learn. If the offense hasn't made a turnaround by next season, I'd cut my ties and find someone else. But, if he shows growth and development? Well, there really is something to be said for chemistry, and he has that with these players (save Valenciunas) right now.
    Before the change the players all loved Jackson. Pro players like consistency.

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    I do think it would do this team well to find a better coach.
    #KevinOllieIsTheOne
    #FuckYourNeo

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    Knock Tristan Thompson on his ass, grab a fucking rebound or get a hand up on Carlos fucking Boozer and maybe will talk about running a play for you, JV.

    You guys having a pity party for JV make me sick. Stop treating JV like a DOTA character that the rest of the team is responsible for levelling up.

    At some point, he has to prove through energy, assertiveness, and physicality, that he deserves a bigger role on the team. Right now he's a 7'0 player that plays smaller than Kyle Lowry. Think about that. Lowry is more physical than JV.

    What I would love to see, more than anything, is JV get pissed off and use all 6 of his fouls. I want him to start taking the game personally again. Drop your shoulder in the post and just run over some dudes.
    Last edited by bryan colangelo; Sat Dec 6th, 2014 at 02:17 PM.

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    JV's usage has gone down since DD went down. Seems insane. Yes, he's struggled (a bit) relative to his usually awesome efficiency, but to say he has gotten more opportunity since DD's injury and has failed to produce is not true - he's gotten less opportunity (more minutes but sees even less of the ball) and failed to produce.

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    Quote bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
    Knock Tristan Thompson on his ass, grab a fucking rebound or get a hand up on Carlos fucking Boozer and maybe will talk about running a play for you, JV.

    You guys having a pity party for JV make me sick. Stop treating JV like a DOTA character that the rest of the team is responsible for levelling up.

    At some point, he has to prove through energy, assertiveness, and physicality, that he deserves a bigger role on the team. Right now he's a 7'0 player that plays smaller than Kyle Lowry. Think about that. Lowry is more physical than JV.

    What I would love to see, more than anything, is JV get pissed off and use all 6 of his fouls. I want him to start taking the game personally again. Drop your shoulder in the post and just run over some dudes.
    JV wasn't on the court for 7 of the 9 Off Boards grabbed by Thompson. The other 2 came in a flurry at 4:40 in the third where Thompson grabbed an off board, went back up and got his shot blocked by JV and came down with the ball.

    So there is his 2 off boards on JV. One real one and one from getting blocked.

    Most of Thompson's success came on Patterson.

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    We talking only about offensive opportunity. They get a lot of opportunity to show their defensive potential and so far they are laying an egg.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    I don't think it should sour us on Ross/JV as much as it should make us appreciate Derozan.

    I think one of the biggest things the analytics movement has really missed in recent years is that you can't just transfer shots around from player to player on a whim and have the stats extrapolate out perfectly. It's not as simple as saying "Derozan shoots X % and JV and Ross shoot over Y % so if you give half a dozen of DD's shots to them the team will score Z more points per game." You take away a team's number one offensive option and you will see a trickle down effect from options 2 through 12. They all get more attention defensively. They all get less space to operate.

    Plus DD has grown into a pretty solid defensive player from a team/schematic view. They're missing him on the defensive side, as crazy as that may seem to some.
    Last edited by Fully; Sat Dec 6th, 2014 at 02:49 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Garbo's Avatar
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    Quote bryan colangelo wrote: View Post
    You guys having a pity party for JV make me sick. Stop treating JV like a DOTA character that the rest of the team is responsible for levelling up.
    That is unfortunate. My heart goes out to anyone who is made sick by an online sports forum.
    As for your points, I agree and I don't all at the same time. As with any argument, there's a level of truth on both sides. There's no excuse for the sad number of rebounds that JV collects (tho, you might be able to make a case that his role on offense is to set screens near the three point line.. You don't grab many rebounds there). At the same time, I've watched countless possessions where JV sprints the floor, posts up a man that's smaller than him after having scored on three of three of his previous attempts only to be looked off for a deep fade-away two. He sprints back on D, switches to cover for the guard who allowed his man to blow by him, and winds up caught out of position on a dish to the big.
    He's a paid professional, so he needs to stop pouting, but man, there are games when I'm frustrated for him. I'm a Raptors fan, not a JV fan (cause I hear that thrown around ad nauseum), but the Raptors are a better team if JV is utilized correctly.

    Could he be more engaged? Yes. And that's on him.
    Could he be utilized more appropriately? Yes. And that's not on him.
    He has reason to be frustrated, but he has millions more reasons to stop the pity party
    Last edited by Garbo; Sat Dec 6th, 2014 at 02:40 PM. Reason: Spelling

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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    JV's usage has gone down since DD went down. Seems insane. Yes, he's struggled (a bit) relative to his usually awesome efficiency, but to say he has gotten more opportunity since DD's injury and has failed to produce is not true - he's gotten less opportunity (more minutes but sees even less of the ball) and failed to produce.
    But but didn't people think that JV's usage would increase? Wasn't it somehow Derozan's fault he can't get shots up?? The OP is right...small sample size but it appears Ross and JV are getting exposed indeed. Neither can consistently create for themselves and their fanboys are running out of excuses. Now it's all Casey's fault... Lol

    JV has more plays run for him than Tristan Thompson....no more excuses. Get in there and grab some offensive rebounds and put backs for goodness sake! Dude is shooting 43 percent without Demar and you want even more plays run for him? He doesn't even take many shots outside the paint (which honestly I think he can and should take because he can shoot).

    What happened to all this elite at drawing fouls talk? Remember you said he was better than Demar at drawing fouls? I honestly don't see this elite talent at all (at least on a semi consistent basis).

    At some point the excuses stop and a player reveals himself. Dude has talent but lacks that star player mentally. He can't allow himself to be shut down by Utah, Sacramento slightly (without cousins) and now the Cavs. These are games where he should have big nights.

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    I just want to win. Winning solves everything.

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