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Thread: What if: The Triangle

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Maury's Avatar
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    Default What if: The Triangle

    I was thinking about how our team would do running a triangle offence, and IMO it would be a great. We would have more ball movement in our offence while having enough structure for it to be consistent and not disappear as the game progresses. It would put Kyle in a position to make plays and/or shots and for Demar to not over dribble the ball. Everyone wouldn't be standing around ball watching either, and it would give Jonas some more opportunities. Now I know this won't happen but I wanted to know your guys' thoughts on this.

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    The triangle has failed dramatically every time it's been used without one of Jordan or Kobe to run it at the NBA level. I like the idea but there are easier ways to lighten the load and share the ball.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Maury's Avatar
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    Quote DanH wrote: View Post
    The triangle has failed dramatically every time it's been used without one of Jordan or Kobe to run it at the NBA level. I like the idea but there are easier ways to lighten the load and share the ball.
    You're right, just trying to think of a way to maximize Demar without just giving him the ball and running isos all game long. I know he isn't Kobe but his play-style is very similar.

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    I've thought about it too. The Triangle is predicated on player movement, ball movement, willing passers, floor spacing, and high basketball IQ. The Warriors ran a hybrid form of the Triangle with Bogut/Draymond at the high post to devastating effect with all the floor spacing that Curry and Klay generate. In the traditional form that the Lakers ran with Kobe, Odom, Bynum and Pau, Phil Jackson didn't have to call plays-- everyone knew where to go, when to cut, and how to react. Bear in mind though that the most successful renditions have been anchored by Jordan & Pippen, Shaq & Kobe and Kobe & Pau. Outside of the sets the Warriors run, every other attempt to instill the Triangle has failed. Look no further than Rambis in Minnesota and Fisher in New York. Those guys are all headed to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot.

    It wouldn't work here because of our personnel, and I'm not confident that Casey could coach it. Theoretically it would lessen the load on Lowry and dissuade DeRozan from being such a ball-stopper, however, consider that over the last 4 seasons we've rarely seen JV operate out of the high post to pick out cutters-- not because he's incapable, but because Casey is risk-averse and would rather have DeRozan, Lowry, Lou, Greivis, and CoJo run an endless loop of high pick and roll. That's his comfort zone and he's not budging.

    Also, while I could see Lowry gradually fitting in, I can't imagine DeRozan adhering to Triangle principles. He's far too accustomed to freelancing and dominating entire possessions looking for his shot to give that up. His basketball IQ isn't high enough either. I hate mentioning him in the same breath as them, but what made Jordan and Kobe so dangerous within the Triangle, on top of being two of the most fundamentally sound and well-rounded players in NBA history, was their ability to adjust to virtually every adjustment the opposing team made while adhering to the system-- a far cry from how DeRozan operates in general or under pressure.
    Last edited by Sinbad; Sat Aug 13th, 2016 at 06:38 PM.

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    Honestly. I feel as though one way to"correct" our offence is to do two of the following:

    1) Redistribute our offensive attack to be more of an inside outside type game. We establish JV every game for the first few possessions but then don't return to him until randomly sometime in the 3rd. He only gets buckets through garbage clean up. I think JS (Sullinger) will help us out a lot with this regard. He has been known as a good post passer. Basically take 4 shots from demar and 2-3 shots from Kyle and redistribute them to JV and to Demarre.

    2) Turn Demar into more of a playmaker. We still do need him attacking but we need him to be cutting more and driving and kicking more. Still need him to slash and get fouled but just adding more of a playmaker. Kyle is great at spot up 3s anyways. As much as Lowry can break down his man his length is such that he is better off surprising his man either in transition or spotting up a little bit more. This is part of why the second unit + Lowry is so good because COJO can take on the responsibilities of distributing while KLow spots up. This also can be combined with #1.

    3) Our sets are actually good when we run them we just either don't run them early enough in the clock (waiting around and dribbling for a 5-12 seconds before initiating the play). If we got into our sets early and often I think this would be very beneficial.

    4) Reminding the guys every practice to do more ball movement. We have good ball movement sometimes, while at other times it disappears. I have seen beautiful offense in the play offs against Cleveland and a bit against Miami... we just need to make sure we do it EVERY SINGLE TIME DOWN THE FLOOR.

    Anyway that is just my opinion. Triangle offense is something that hasn't worked for a while. We could run more Princeston sets... which are somewhat derived from the Triangle.

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    It would be nice if our team ran anything more just a simple pick n roll lol

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    Raptors Republic Veteran Nilanka's Avatar
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    I would've been keen on this idea had we picked up Gasol this summer. Always a good idea to have a player who's actually won with the triangle.

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    Quote Nilanka wrote: View Post
    I would've been keen on this idea had we picked up Gasol this summer. Always a good idea to have a player who's actually won with the triangle.
    He would have been perfect for our system at least offensively. A bit of a liability defensively but WAAAY better then Scola. I think we will do better then most people think. JS will do just fine. If he performs up to his best or near to his best it may be one of the better off season pick ups. The thing is we didn't play 2 pat all year until later on. Starting doesn't matter but it is the amount of minutes. All of a sudden in the play offs his minutes jumped by 5-10 minutes a game. When you are forced to play that many more minutes and you are playing almost every second game you are going to struggle.

    Demarre was injured. Considering he gave it his all in the playoffs he didn't do to bad. He will have a nice long summer of getting healthy. He had most of the season to get healthy too, which is perfect. I expect us to be better (not necessarily in record) on both ends when he gets back. Remember even though he was injured he was our best 3 point shooter and was a positive on both ends.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Maury's Avatar
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    Quote JamesNaismith wrote: View Post
    It would be nice if our team ran anything more just a simple pick n roll lol
    That's exactly my point. I feel like the triangle would give them a little more structure than the simple horns and pnr they run. It doesn't need as high bbal IQ as a Spurs-like motion offence either.

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    Quote Maury wrote: View Post
    That's exactly my point. I feel like the triangle would give them a little more structure than the simple horns and pnr they run. It doesn't need as high bbal IQ as a Spurs-like motion offence either.
    to get that you may need to look for a different kind of player then what we currently possess. BBall IQ in my opinion is just a STEP below athleticism .

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    Quote Maury wrote: View Post
    That's exactly my point. I feel like the triangle would give them a little more structure than the simple horns and pnr they run. It doesn't need as high bbal IQ as a Spurs-like motion offence either.
    I hear ya Maury but the triangle also isn't really that simple to implement hence so many teams failure to do so.

    But our team absolutely needs to bring in more play calls. It's almost amateurish how little creativity/innovation the coaching staff shows in the offence. Offensively I feel like I'm watching the play calls of a high school team. The vast majority of time it's an incredibly predictable high PnR or dump off to the wing to let DeMar isolate, maybe the rare back cut for Ross when he's in the game but even that's predictable as usually he's in when DeMar's out then it's Kyle or Cory waiting at the top of the key for a cut or yup you guessed it, a PnR. I don't expect Spurs like motion but our offense gets down right embarrassing.

    Hence why in the Playoffs we stagnate. In the regular season, they don't allow as much physicality on defence and doubles aren't employed as much so we get a lot of calls n it goes unpunished. Then in the Playoffs it's like pulling teeth because teams know exactly what we're doing n our shots are very highly contested as a result. Not to mention given the athleticism of this team as a whole we don't fastbreak nearly enough. I suspect Powell and Siakam will help with that but our team needs a ton of work with better play calls that play to other teammates strengths not named Kyle or DeMar.

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    Quote Maury wrote: View Post
    That's exactly my point. I feel like the triangle would give them a little more structure than the simple horns and pnr they run. It doesn't need as high bbal IQ as a Spurs-like motion offence either.
    No, it doesn't have to be a motion offence, but it requires a willingness to give up the ball that our coach doesn't emphasize enough. They play some of the ugliest basketball I've ever seen, but the immediate rebuttal to any calls for more movement and structure will be, "But we won 56 games and reached the Conference Finals!". Add in that Lowry and DeRozan thrive without structure, and there's not much motivation to change a thing. With all the coaching upheaval on the Raptors staff, I hope Masai lures someone who can modernize the offense. We sorely need it.

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    Quote Sinbad wrote: View Post
    No, it doesn't have to be a motion offence, but it requires a willingness to give up the ball that our coach doesn't emphasize enough. They play some of the ugliest basketball I've ever seen, but the immediate rebuttal to any calls for more movement and structure will be, "But we won 56 games and reached the Conference Finals!". Add in that Lowry and DeRozan thrive without structure, and there's not much motivation to change a thing. With all the coaching upheaval on the Raptors staff, I hope Masai lures someone who can modernize the offense. We sorely need it.
    I just think we need a new offensive coordinator.

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