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Thread: True Rebuild or Win Now

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Default True Rebuild or Win Now

    Lately I've been debating the merits of doing a true rebuild vs. trading some of our young talent to make us a good team next year. I was curious what others at the Republic might think so i decided to frame the question this way: If we could take all but one of our young players (DD, Amir, Ed, Bargs, Bayless, etc...) and picks and trade them to bring back two borderline all-star type guys would you do it? Think of a combination like Josh Smith and Monta Ellis or Al Jefferson and Danny granger, guys who are not franchise players but who are still very very good.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Raptors Republic Superstar Mack North's Avatar
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    Why would you want two borderline all-stars when there's gonna be teams with at least 2-3 true all-stars/superstars that won't even win a championship? The only two on our team I truly care to keep are DeMar and Ed. I still say stick with the all-out rebuild if that's the plan right now. The draft pick this year could turn into something special and I'd feel alright going forward with that player along with the two aforementioned.
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    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    True rebuild hands down. We can't even pull off a "win now" anyways, no stars want to come here.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    True rebuild hands down. We can't even pull off a "win now" anyways, no stars want to come here.
    We would be trading for guys, not signing them so it doesn't matter that no one wants to be here. Not that I believe that that is true anyway.

    Why would you want two borderline all-stars when there's gonna be teams with at least 2-3 true all-stars/superstars that won't even win a championship?
    The argument would be that we have no idea if the guys we have now will lead us to the promised land and that getting some guys that are already good could speed things up and maybe convince a big named free agent to come here. Additionally it would make us start winning, would is always nice.
    I tend to agree that we should stick with a rebuild, but then I think Demar is a future all-star, Ed is going to be KG good, and secretly still hope that Bargs can get his act together.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Raptors Republic All-Star RaptorsFan4Life's Avatar
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    Unhappy stars won't play to their potential and would complete throw the team chemistry out the window. That would be retarded if we traded for guys who don't want to be here.

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    Trading for a borderline All-Star or two would doom the team to mediocrity and depress the crap out of me (okay, I wouldn't actually get depressed, but you get my point).
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    Finding the pieces that fit is the major issue here, I mean look at GS they have 2 borderline all stars in Monta and Curry as well as the Clippers in B.Griffin and E Gordon and they have trouble winning.

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    If it's win now, we'd just be back to square one with Bosh: Winning 40 games each year, and if we're lucky win a playoff game.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I think I'll play some devil's advocate here.

    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    Unhappy stars won't play to their potential and would complete throw the team chemistry out the window. That would be retarded if we traded for guys who don't want to be here.
    Just because we may not be the first choice on someone's list of places to play does not mean they would be unhappy to be here. I'm not talking about trading for Alonzo Mourning again where we get a guy who refuses to play for us, I'm talking about trading for guys playing for fringe contenders that would likely welcome the chance to come to a market like Toronto and make a name for them self.

    Trading for a borderline All-Star or two would doom the team to mediocrity and depress the crap out of me (okay, I wouldn't actually get depressed, but you get my point).
    Tim W.

    There is a flaw to this logic. Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, and Lamar Odom are all guys who were borderline all-stars (Pau and Ron had been all stars once each) playing on playoff teams that couldn't win a title. Lakers pick them up and play them with Bryant and they have a dynasty.
    Picking up two very good players takes us a step closer to a title, all we would need then is the team leader. I think if you could put together a roster consisting of say Josh Smith and Andre Igoudala plus three decent role players like Reggie, Jose, and Dalembert, guys like Chris Paul might be tempted to come play here. It's just an example, but a roster like that would be fairly tough to beat and would have a pretty good shot at a title.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Lately I've been debating the merits of doing a true rebuild vs. trading some of our young talent to make us a good team next year. I was curious what others at the Republic might think so i decided to frame the question this way: If we could take all but one of our young players (DD, Amir, Ed, Bargs, Bayless, etc...) and picks and trade them to bring back two borderline all-star type guys would you do it? Think of a combination like Josh Smith and Monta Ellis or Al Jefferson and Danny granger, guys who are not franchise players but who are still very very good.
    I think it comes down to who you move and who you get.

    Of that list I would have no problems with this team moving Bargnani and Bayless.

    I'm on the fence about Demar, and I wouldn't want to move Ed or Amir.

    But I have no interest in this team getting Ellis or Granger. Jefferson would be a nice, and I think Smith is an excellent player.

    I'm not opposed to the team doing one or the other... as long as the players they get (whether trade, draft, FA) are capable of contributing to a winning team. Efficient, hard working, effective players. No more one dimensional, soft, inefficient players... there have been enough of those going through this team's roster for 7 years

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    My vote would be to stick with a true rebuilding plan.

    A rebuilding plan doesn't mean the team has to keep every young player they have though. Of course I would be in favor of making favorable trades, as long as it nets the team good young assets that can be a piece of the puzzle over the next 3-7 years and/or draft picks.

    For me, the core nucleous of this team right now is Bargnani, DeRozan and Davis. I really like Amir too, but would gladly use depth at PF to make a trade that successfully addressed a weakness at SF, for example. Everybody else is a tradeable asset and I would only ever make a trade that addressed a team need and/or made us a better team, with a 3-7 year window in mind. For those of you that scoff at me including Bargnani as a part of the core nucleous of this team, let me say that I think he is a great player that creates significant mismatches, but I don't consider him to be a "franchise player" or "all star" player, rather he's just a good player that is still relatively young and has more room for improvement (his first 2 seasons were wasted years under Smitch).

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    trading away our young talent is pretty risky, as you need to orchestrate 2-3 separate trades possibly at different times. If you can only pull off 1 or 2, but can't get the 2-3 you get stuck in that 35-40 win season which some call the "mediocrity treadmill". Yes you can trade some of our pieces to address other holes in the roster, but I think that the direction the raps have decided to take is rebuild and to switch the game plan with quick fixes doesn't make any sense. I don't think coangelo did a bad job making quick fix trades (o'neal, marion, turk) but it certainly didn't get us where we want to be as a franchise. Why go back to the model that didn't produce the results we wanted?
    "We only have one rule on this team. What is that rule? E.L.E. That's right's, E.L.E, and what does E.L.E. stand for? EVERYBODY LOVE EVERYBODY. Right there up on the wall, because this isn't just a basketball team, this is a lifestyle. ~ Jackie Moon

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    Raptors Republic All-Star e2thed's Avatar
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    I say we trade Bargs to orlando for brandon bass and earl clark

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    Stick to the rebuild. Need to have a great base that is competing in a couple of rounds of playoffs and then get the last two pieces that get you compete for championships.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star e2thed's Avatar
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    bargs needs to go to a team that needs a big and doesn't need a defensive presence but has a defensive minded coach, Orlando is the perfect candidate

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    no no no!!!!!!!!

    1) The only players colangelo thinks are good and warrant signing to big contracts can't play any defense (turkoglu,kleiza)

    2)Even if we do stumble upon a winning formula with veterans we want a team that lasts and gets better with time, we need to draft those pieces.

    What i think is achievable with some luck:

    1)draft kyrie

    2)bargnani and calderon + tpe for 3rd or 4th pick and draft kanter

    3)sign mikael paetrus (outside shot and defense), gamble but not a huge one.

    roster:
    Pg Irving
    SG Derozan
    Sf Paetrus
    PF davis
    C Kanter

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    Quote pran wrote: View Post
    no no no!!!!!!!!

    1) The only players colangelo thinks are good and warrant signing to big contracts can't play any defense (turkoglu,kleiza)

    2)Even if we do stumble upon a winning formula with veterans we want a team that lasts and gets better with time, we need to draft those pieces.

    What i think is achievable with some luck:

    1)draft kyrie

    2)bargnani and calderon + tpe for 3rd or 4th pick and draft kanter

    3)sign mikael paetrus (outside shot and defense), gamble but not a huge one.

    roster:
    Pg Irving
    SG Derozan
    Sf Paetrus
    PF davis
    C Kanter
    How does that work??

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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    Tim W.

    There is a flaw to this logic. Pau Gasol, Ron Artest, and Lamar Odom are all guys who were borderline all-stars (Pau and Ron had been all stars once each) playing on playoff teams that couldn't win a title. Lakers pick them up and play them with Bryant and they have a dynasty.
    Picking up two very good players takes us a step closer to a title, all we would need then is the team leader. I think if you could put together a roster consisting of say Josh Smith and Andre Igoudala plus three decent role players like Reggie, Jose, and Dalembert, guys like Chris Paul might be tempted to come play here. It's just an example, but a roster like that would be fairly tough to beat and would have a pretty good shot at a title.
    I'm not sure where the flaw is in my argument. Yes, the Lakers were able to pick up some borderline All-Star to become a contender. The difference, as you mentioned, is that they had this guy who was already pretty good. Kobe Bryant. The Raptors would be adding borderline All-Star to a team without any All-Star.

    And trading for a bunch of decent players in the hopes it will attract a franchise player is is setting yourself up for disappointment. Besides the fact that you may not have the cap room, Why would Chris Paul choose Toronto over several other teams that may be better and in a warmer climate. When is the last time a franchise level player left their own team to go to a team that wasn't either New York, the Lakers or in Florida (going back to Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady)?
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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    Rebuild all the way. All the best teams are built through the draft. If you could get good young players for the players we have (that aren't named DeMar or Ed) then sure but I don't really see that happening.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm not sure where the flaw is in my argument. Yes, the Lakers were able to pick up some borderline All-Star to become a contender. The difference, as you mentioned, is that they had this guy who was already pretty good. Kobe Bryant. The Raptors would be adding borderline All-Star to a team without any All-Star.

    And trading for a bunch of decent players in the hopes it will attract a franchise player is is setting yourself up for disappointment. Besides the fact that you may not have the cap room, Why would Chris Paul choose Toronto over several other teams that may be better and in a warmer climate. When is the last time a franchise level player left their own team to go to a team that wasn't either New York, the Lakers or in Florida (going back to Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady)?
    What is more likely: Demar, Ed Davis, whoever we draft, or Andrea become good enough to lead us to a title or we pick up two really good players through trades and then get one more really good guy through Free Agency? The other thing to keep in mind is some of these borderline guys are still getting better and may not be in the ideal situation for their talent to blossom. Trading for a guy like Josh Smith (sorry to keep bringing him up, I saw a trade thread about him the the day and he is a good example) is both a win now deal because it makes us immediately better and a future deal since he is still improving as a player and his situation in Atlanta kind of sucks because they have no real center (Horford should play PF and Smith should give the three a shot). Maybe a move to Toronto would bring him to the next level?

    Isn't hoping a bunch of rookies and sophomores will develop into all-stars setting your self up for just as much disappointment as hoping you can lure a big name in free agency?
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
    -Scudworth

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