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Thread: Who Needs a Franchise Player??

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    Default Who Needs a Franchise Player??

    I just spent the last 2 hours talking myself out of committing suicide after reading Arse's newest article on how the Raps don't really have any direction or hope in the next couple years. I thought I'd point out a few things that the suicide hotline helped me realize:

    -players are unpredictable and you never know when they are going to take the "leap". It's awesome when it happens and you don't see it coming. You never know when someone is going to pull a Monta, Gilbert, Diaw, Rondo, and decide that they're not scrubs or just suddenly "get it" like Z-bo.

    -2nd, you don't necessarily need a "franchise" player to build around, but you do need a lot of good young players like the Raps have. That's how Boston got Garnet and Allen with picks and good young talent. The Raps could be the next Nuggets in a couple years and then use all their young talent as trade bait for that one big player that everyone covets.

    -Lastly, next year is gonna suck, but it's not gonna suck as bad. Most of these players have a solid work ethic and are showing improvement. Watching young players get better is actually kinda fun.

    Deep breath.

    Go Raps
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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    Boston has two franchise players. And the Nuggets' ceiling is probably the Atlanta Hawks. A good team that has no hope of going beyond the second round in the playoffs. It's great to say the Raptors don't need a franchise player, but if you really want them to have a chance at a title, it's pretty much a necessity.

    Let me put it this way. It's easier to get a franchise player than to win a title without one.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Boston has two franchise players. And the Nuggets' ceiling is probably the Atlanta Hawks. A good team that has no hope of going beyond the second round in the playoffs. It's great to say the Raptors don't need a franchise player, but if you really want them to have a chance at a title, it's pretty much a necessity.

    Let me put it this way. It's easier to get a franchise player than to win a title without one.
    +1

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Boston has two franchise players. And the Nuggets' ceiling is probably the Atlanta Hawks. A good team that has no hope of going beyond the second round in the playoffs. It's great to say the Raptors don't need a franchise player, but if you really want them to have a chance at a title, it's pretty much a necessity.

    Let me put it this way. It's easier to get a franchise player than to win a title without one.
    I totally agree with you. I think what I was trying to say is that you don't have to find your franchise player in the draft and just because the raps don't have that one or two players to build around it isn't the end of the world. I think a lot of Raptor fans would take a 2nd round exit in the playoffs right now. Having a lot of good players could mean a really really good player in a future trade.
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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    I just spent the last 2 hours talking myself out of committing suicide after reading Arse's newest article on how the Raps don't really have any direction or hope in the next couple years. I thought I'd point out a few things that the suicide hotline helped me realize:

    -players are unpredictable and you never know when they are going to take the "leap". It's awesome when it happens and you don't see it coming. You never know when someone is going to pull a Monta, Gilbert, Diaw, Rondo, and decide that they're not scrubs or just suddenly "get it" like Z-bo.

    -2nd, you don't necessarily need a "franchise" player to build around, but you do need a lot of good young players like the Raps have. That's how Boston got Garnet and Allen with picks and good young talent. The Raps could be the next Nuggets in a couple years and then use all their young talent as trade bait for that one big player that everyone covets.

    -Lastly, next year is gonna suck, but it's not gonna suck as bad. Most of these players have a solid work ethic and are showing improvement. Watching young players get better is actually kinda fun.

    Deep breath.

    Go Raps
    For them to make it without centering the team around "the guy" or "guys" is asking for a Pistons template. Replicating the Pistons success will be tough. Maybe Ed Davis can reach Big Ben impact. Maybe DeRozan can reach Rip Hamilton impact but then they still need a lot of fire power at PG and in the paint along with a great bench and a strong wing who can play defense. Then they'd need a high impact bench player like Okur coming in and changing the game on the second unit. Maybe amir can be that guy, I don't know. It's tough to replicate. The Raptors are a lot of pieces away and even then there's no telling if it would work. The Pistons of 03/04 had a far easier road to the finals in the east.

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    I totally agree with you. I think what I was trying to say is that you don't have to find your franchise player in the draft and just because the raps don't have that one or two players to build around it isn't the end of the world. I think a lot of Raptor fans would take a 2nd round exit in the playoffs right now. Having a lot of good players could mean a really really good player in a future trade.
    Unless you're a New York, Boston, Laker or Florida based team, the best way to find a franchise player is to draft him. Being a good team couldn't attract a great player to Atlanta or Utah or any of the other teams whose ceiling is the second round.

    And there's a difference between being happy with the 2nd round right now, and being happy with a team whose ceiling is the second round. I would find it incredibly difficult to muster much enthusiasm for a team like the Atlanta Hawks. To me, that team needs to be blown up because it's got no future.
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    For them to make it without centering the team around "the guy" or "guys" is asking for a Pistons template. Replicating the Pistons success will be tough. Maybe Ed Davis can reach Big Ben impact. Maybe DeRozan can reach Rip Hamilton impact but then they still need a lot of fire power at PG and in the paint along with a great bench and a strong wing who can play defense. Then they'd need a high impact bench player like Okur coming in and changing the game on the second unit. Maybe amir can be that guy, I don't know. It's tough to replicate. The Raptors are a lot of pieces away and even then there's no telling if it would work. The Pistons of 03/04 had a far easier road to the finals in the east.

    The Pistons in 03/04 was an exception to the rule. They also played a Lakers team with an injured Malone and a feuding Kobe/Shaq. Didn't Phil have to take a year off after that season? I could only imagine the headache that team put him through. It was like winning the lottery for the Pistons. I don't think that the Raptors should ever try and replicate that team.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    For them to make it without centering the team around "the guy" or "guys" is asking for a Pistons template. Replicating the Pistons success will be tough. Maybe Ed Davis can reach Big Ben impact. Maybe DeRozan can reach Rip Hamilton impact but then they still need a lot of fire power at PG and in the paint along with a great bench and a strong wing who can play defense. Then they'd need a high impact bench player like Okur coming in and changing the game on the second unit. Maybe amir can be that guy, I don't know. It's tough to replicate. The Raptors are a lot of pieces away and even then there's no telling if it would work. The Pistons of 03/04 had a far easier road to the finals in the east.
    Ok I'm dumb. Looking back I should have called this thread "Who Needs to DRAFT a Franchise Player?"

    The Pistons were a freak and the league wasn't as strong on talent that year. From what I've been reading now is the 'experts' have been slowly changing their mind about this draft. Not calling it weak but saying it's deeper than they initially thought but they're not convinced there's a player to build around.

    I mean I'm trying to figure out what the alternative is here. Keep tanking until we get a top 3 pick in a good draft? For now all you can do is keep developing young talent and when the opportunity arises trade for a high pick or franchise player.
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    Let's make something clear here. The Raptors are not currently tanking and I don't think they ever will tank while Bryan Colangelo is running things. You would not see Reggie Evans logging close to 30 minutes a game since his return if the tank job was on.

    They need to bring in as much talent as possible and find a way to win it. That's all I can say.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Let's make something clear here. The Raptors are not currently tanking and I don't think they ever will tank while Bryan Colangelo is running things. You would not see Reggie Evans logging close to 30 minutes a game since his return if the tank job was on.

    They need to bring in as much talent as possible and find a way to win it. That's all I can say.
    Agreed 100%, which is so disturbing to me. Imo, a potential 60 loss team riding the best players on their roster, should probably be content playing younger guys to see what they can contribute. The talent dearth on this team is frightening. I have major concerns about this roster going forward and the GM who is assembling the talent. That being said, hopefully we'll see some rapid developments from the young lottery picks like DeRozan and Davis and this upcoming pick will be in the mix and contribute sooner rather than later as well.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Let's make something clear here. The Raptors are not currently tanking and I don't think they ever will tank while Bryan Colangelo is running things. You would not see Reggie Evans logging close to 30 minutes a game since his return if the tank job was on.

    They need to bring in as much talent as possible and find a way to win it. That's all I can say.
    You're right that was a poor choice of words. Instead of 'tanking' I should have said 'losing'. I'm not disagreeing with anything you say and I'm a 100% against tanking for lottery position (or any reason). None of the current Raptors should be deemed 'untradeable' or tagged as a 'franchise player'.

    The OKC model is 80% luck and 20% drafting smart and not making panic trades to keep Durant and I hate it when people say Raps should use that model. I just want BC to keep drafting like he does and keep developing young players.
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    If I was to take over the Raps as GM, I'd look at the roster and think, okay, these are the pieces I'd probably like to keep and work with. Depth chart as follows (starter/bench)

    _______/Calderon/#
    Derozan/________/+
    _______/J.Johnson/*
    Davis/Evans/^
    ______/Bargnani

    #I'd like to explore trade possibilities for Bayless. Maybe I can snag a first rounder either this year or next if I combine him with someone/something else, or maybe I could get a nice defensive 2 guard who can hit the spot up 3 to back up Derozan. That would be nice, actually.

    +Barbosa should be moved to a team further developed than the Raps, who needs bench scoring/a legit 6th man. Should be able to get a decent return.

    *Kleiza = wildcard. Let's see how he plays after he comes back from injury. Will take a while to decide on him, but I like what I saw when he was healthy.

    ^A.Johnson is probably my best player who I could comfortably give up in a trade to address the blanks, given the emerging presence of Ed Davis and the veteran presence of Reggie Evans. Will be looking for a starter, may have to combine with Bayless or Barbosa to do so, maybe a draft pick coming back as well. Obviously that would be contingent on who is coming and going.

    One of those blanks would be filled by this year's draft. Another one or two could theoretically be filled via trade. Then I'll see again what I've got.

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    Basically, there are 4 real holes on this roster. Yes it sucks that 3 of them are starters, but that's where I see the Raps. There are good trading pieces, though, and a good rookie coming this summer. I see actually a bright future, so long as the right pieces are kept, an inspiring coach is brought in who will hold the players accountable (absolutely necessary on such a young squad) and instill in them a respect for the defensive game. I'm really liking how the bench would shape up and it would provide us a good advantage in that it could cover the mistakes made by the very young and still growing starting 5.

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    I just spent the last 2 hours talking myself out of committing suicide after reading Arse's newest article on how the Raps don't really have any direction or hope in the next couple years. I thought I'd point out a few things that the suicide hotline helped me realize:

    -players are unpredictable and you never know when they are going to take the "leap". It's awesome when it happens and you don't see it coming. You never know when someone is going to pull a Monta, Gilbert, Diaw, Rondo, and decide that they're not scrubs or just suddenly "get it" like Z-bo.

    -2nd, you don't necessarily need a "franchise" player to build around, but you do need a lot of good young players like the Raps have. That's how Boston got Garnet and Allen with picks and good young talent. The Raps could be the next Nuggets in a couple years and then use all their young talent as trade bait for that one big player that everyone covets.

    -Lastly, next year is gonna suck, but it's not gonna suck as bad. Most of these players have a solid work ethic and are showing improvement. Watching young players get better is actually kinda fun.

    Deep breath.

    Go Raps

    I disagree with Point 2

    1. You've not only got to acquire good young players, you've got to figure out a way to keep them. Toronto has not been good at this.

    2. Toronto does not have a 'lot' of good young players. OKC has a lot of good young players. Toronto has a guy who might start on half the teams in the NBA (DeRozan), a center most GMs would love to have coming off the bench, and a rookie with potential.
    I love, love, love Amir Johnson, but he's a rotation player. James Johnson is decent and sometimes good. We have a team that most analysts in the NBA think is terrible.

    3. The Celts got 'lucky' in a trade that stank to high heaven then and still smells today. I'd rather rely on the draft then wait for that kind of trade to happen in Toronto.


    I wish I could agree with you, overall, but you need tremendous talent and depth to win in the NBA, and the Raptors don't have either.

    Unless you're Boston, the Lakers or the Knicks, You need to get lucky and draft a franchise guy, then lose for another season and draft an all-star sidekick, then hope you can bring it together with a decent supporting cast before your window closes. Detroit notwithstanding, it's the only way to win a chip in the current NBA. Ask Utah, Atlanta, Phoenix, and Denver. They all came close but lost to superstars.

    Or perhaps Miami's player conspiracy model will set the nba in a new direction and we'll see the return of dynasties like those of the 80s and 90s?

    I'm not sure which I prefer.
    Last edited by Copywryter; Tue Mar 29th, 2011 at 03:40 PM.

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    Quote Copywryter wrote: View Post
    I disagree with Point 2

    1. You've not only got to acquire good young players, you've got to figure out a way to keep them. Toronto has not been good at this.

    2. Toronto does not have a 'lot' of good young players. OKC has a lot of good young players. Toronto has a guy who might start on half the teams in the NBA (DeRozan), a center most GMs would love to have coming off the bench, and a rookie with potential.
    I love, love, love Amir Johnson, but he's a rotation player. James Johnson is decent and sometimes good. We have a team that most analysts in the NBA think is terrible.

    3. The Celts got 'lucky' in a trade that stank to high heaven then and still smells today. I'd rather rely on the draft then wait for that kind of trade to happen in Toronto.


    I wish I could agree with you, overall, but you need tremendous talent and depth to win in the NBA, and the Raptors don't have either.

    Unless you're Boston, the Lakers or the Knicks, You need to get lucky and draft a franchise guy, then lose for another season and draft an all-star sidekick, then hope you can bring it together with a decent supporting cast before your window closes. Detroit notwithstanding, it's the only way to win a chip in the current NBA. Ask Utah, Atlanta, Phoenix, and Denver. They all came close but lost to superstars.

    Or perhaps Miami's player conspiracy model will set the nba in a new direction and we'll see the return of dynasties like those of the 80s and 90s?

    I'm not sure which I prefer.
    Interesting. But you're making me suicidal again. So it is pretty much ALL luck unless you're a big market team?

    What do you guys think of Deron Williams? That's another example of building young talent and then trading it for a franchise type player.
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    Quote Copywryter wrote: View Post
    1. You've not only got to acquire good young players, you've got to figure out a way to keep them. Toronto has not been good at this.
    I disagree. There's this myth, I believe, that Toronto can't hold onto it's stars, but apart from Tracy McGrady, not one of the stars left a team worth staying on. In other words, neither Stoudamire, Carter or Bosh were given a reason to stay. Stoudamire left because ownership pushed out his mentor, and the franchise was in chaos. Carter was on a team that was being run into the ground by Babcock. And Bosh left after the Raptors missed the playoffs for the second year in a row, and was worse than it was 4 years ago, when it didn't even get past the 1st round. A lot of people questioned HOW Carter and Bosh left, but I don't think anyone can blame them for wanting to leave.

    You give DeRozan and Davis a reason to stay, and I think they will.
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    Employee, you're unfortunately wrong on both points. I think you're seeing what you want to see instead of what history shows. Players aren't "unpredictable" at all. What always happens is they're drafted, and within 12 months we already know whether they're be great or not. Don't take my word for it, look at the historical record.
    Secondly, a team full of "good young players" is not what the Raptors have. It is what the OKC team has. Here's how I know for sure: That team is winning, and the Raps aren't.
    Basketball teams need studs to win. All-NBA types. Again, don't take my word for it, look at the record. Every single championship team in the modern era has been top-heavy with stars. That's what gets it done.
    I think you're taking the kind of view, if I may say so, that the Raptors organization wants you to take, rather than the one supported by overwhelming objective evidence.

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    I agree with Tim. The Raptors (post Isaiah) have had an uncanny knack for selecting one excellent, potentially franchise level guy, and then proceed to whiff on the next few drafts thereby killing any chance of building a team a la OKC and persuading players to stick around. Not to push Employee further toward the brink, but here's a breakdown including one or two notable woulda, coulda, shoulda guys that'll make us all die a little inside.

    1998
    Round 1: Jamison (3) Traded for Carter (5)
    Round 2: Who cares? Tyson Wheeler if you do, but seriously...

    Notables left on the board: Dirk and Pierce, I guess you could argue but Carter was pretty much a home run in this draft.

    1999
    Round 1: Jon Bender (5) Traded for Antonio Davis, Aleksander Radojevic (12)
    Round 2: no pick

    Notables left on the board: Between 5 and 12 the best guys left were Jason Terry and Shawn Marion. Beyond 12 almost anyone taken would have been better, including Kirilenko, Artest, and Ginobili. But seriously anyone except Fred Weis or a couple of guys in the second round.

    2000
    Round 1: Morris Peterson (21)
    Round 2: I'm going to stop including this... DeeAndre Hullett?

    Notables: Peterson was basically the only solid addition through the draft between Carter and Bosh. Michael Redd was still around but everyone missed on him.

    2001
    Round 1: Michael Bradley (17)

    Notables: This draft kills me. Arenas, Z-Bo, Tony Parker, Gerald Wallace and a whole pile of rotation guys. Brendan Haywood too.

    2002
    Round 1: Kareem Rush (20) Traded for Chris Jefferies (27) and Jerry West's autograph.

    Notables: This was pretty much a stink fest so I can't kill them. Still the Spurs got Scola with the 56th pick.

    2003
    Round 1: Bosh (4)

    Notables: Nothing to say other than to bring your attention again to the morass of decrepitude between 98 and 03. In four drafts we got Morris Peterson and 4 years of Antonio Davis

    2004
    Round 1: Rafael Araujo (8)

    Notables: Josh Smith, Andre Igoudala, Al Jefferson, Kevin Martin... let's just move on.

    2005
    Round 1: Charlie Villanueva (7), Joey Graham (16)
    Round 2: Roko Ukic (41)

    Notables: Passed on Danny Granger (my personal favourite when this happened - twice) as well as David Lee and Monta Ellis. Still available at 41: Andray Blatche (fool), Lou Williams, Ryan Gomes, and Amir Johnson. If you want to work yourself into a frenzy Ellis went 40th.

    The real crime here is that Portland traded the #3 pick (your choice of Chris Paul or Deron Williams) to Utah for the 6 and 27 (and then selected: Martell Webster and Linas Kleiza - yikes). Trading our 7 and 16 picks which is better in my opinion (especially if Portland's 'plan' was to take Martell Webster, likely there at 7) for either one of Paul or Williams would have completely changed things. I can't talk about this anymore.

    2006
    Round 1: Andrea Bargnani (1)
    Round 2: PJ Tucker (35)

    Notables: Obviously there are a bunch of non-Bargnani cases to be made for the 1st pick, I won't bother here. At 35 pretty much only Paul Millsap was still around, unless you want to agonize over missing Craig Smith or Leon Powe.

    Seems like a good place to stop since I think everyone is familiar with the last few years of drafting.

    Keeping young players is fairly easy as long as they're in a good situation where they can see the path to a championship. In the last few drafts OKC has added KD, Westbrook, Ibaka, Harden, and Maynor. The Raptors have been unable to consistently add players through the draft that provide the talent base that teams outside of the big US markets need to keep their own talent and attract others. Here's what we added to Bosh and Carter with 9 first round picks and a few seconds: Bargnani, A. Davis, MoPete, Villanueva, Graham, Jeffries, Bradley, Ukic, Tucker, Radojevic, Araujo.

    I will now set myself on fire.
    Last edited by LamarVannoy; Wed Mar 30th, 2011 at 09:37 AM.

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    Quote LamarVannoy wrote: View Post
    Here's what we added to Bosh and Carter with 9 first round picks and a few seconds: Bargnani, A. Davis, MoPete, Villanueva, Graham, Jeffries, Bradley, Ukic, Tucker, Radojevic, Araujo.

    I will now set myself on fire.
    I would take that line-up any day..........For a run at the Y.

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    Part of the reason the raptors can't keep it's stars is the lack of winning though, too. Ed, DeMar and Sonny have all tweeted about how much they like Toronto (outside of the cold) and mentioned numerous times how they want to build something here. If the team perennially gets bumped out of the first round or so any player is going to lose interest. It's just the way it is. The raps have to build a winner in the next 3-4 years if they're going to keep any of these guys.

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