Who Needs a Franchise Player??

[Tim W.]

1. You've not only got to acquire good young players, you've got to figure out a way to keep them. Toronto has not been good at this.

I disagree. There's this myth, I believe, that Toronto can't hold onto it's stars, but apart from Tracy McGrady, not one of the stars left a team worth staying on. In other words, neither Stoudamire, Carter or Bosh were given a reason to stay. Stoudamire left because ownership pushed out his mentor, and the franchise was in chaos. Carter was on a team that was being run into the ground by Babcock. And Bosh left after the Raptors missed the playoffs for the second year in a row, and was worse than it was 4 years ago, when it didn't even get past the 1st round. A lot of people questioned HOW Carter and Bosh left, but I don't think anyone can blame them for wanting to leave.

You give DeRozan and Davis a reason to stay, and I think they will.

[Brandon]

Employee, you're unfortunately wrong on both points. I think you're seeing what you want to see instead of what history shows. Players aren't "unpredictable" at all. What always happens is they're drafted, and within 12 months we already know whether they're be great or not. Don't take my word for it, look at the historical record.
Secondly, a team full of "good young players" is not what the Raptors have. It is what the OKC team has. Here's how I know for sure: That team is winning, and the Raps aren't.
Basketball teams need studs to win. All-NBA types. Again, don't take my word for it, look at the record. Every single championship team in the modern era has been top-heavy with stars. That's what gets it done.
I think you're taking the kind of view, if I may say so, that the Raptors organization wants you to take, rather than the one supported by overwhelming objective evidence.

[LamarVannoy]

I agree with Tim. The Raptors (post Isaiah) have had an uncanny knack for selecting one excellent, potentially franchise level guy, and then proceed to whiff on the next few drafts thereby killing any chance of building a team a la OKC and persuading players to stick around. Not to push Employee further toward the brink, but here's a breakdown including one or two notable woulda, coulda, shoulda guys that'll make us all die a little inside.

1998
Round 1: Jamison (3) Traded for Carter (5)
Round 2: Who cares? Tyson Wheeler if you do, but seriously...

Notables left on the board: Dirk and Pierce, I guess you could argue but Carter was pretty much a home run in this draft.

1999
Round 1: Jon Bender (5) Traded for Antonio Davis, Aleksander Radojevic (12)
Round 2: no pick

Notables left on the board: Between 5 and 12 the best guys left were Jason Terry and Shawn Marion. Beyond 12 almost anyone taken would have been better, including Kirilenko, Artest, and Ginobili. But seriously anyone except Fred Weis or a couple of guys in the second round.

2000
Round 1: Morris Peterson (21)
Round 2: I'm going to stop including this... DeeAndre Hullett?

Notables: Peterson was basically the only solid addition through the draft between Carter and Bosh. Michael Redd was still around but everyone missed on him.

2001
Round 1: Michael Bradley (17)

Notables: This draft kills me. Arenas, Z-Bo, Tony Parker, Gerald Wallace and a whole pile of rotation guys. Brendan Haywood too.

2002
Round 1: Kareem Rush (20) Traded for Chris Jefferies (27) and Jerry West's autograph.

Notables: This was pretty much a stink fest so I can't kill them. Still the Spurs got Scola with the 56th pick.

2003
Round 1: Bosh (4)

Notables: Nothing to say other than to bring your attention again to the morass of decrepitude between 98 and 03. In four drafts we got Morris Peterson and 4 years of Antonio Davis

2004
Round 1: Rafael Araujo (8)

Notables: Josh Smith, Andre Igoudala, Al Jefferson, Kevin Martin... let's just move on.

2005
Round 1: Charlie Villanueva (7), Joey Graham (16)
Round 2: Roko Ukic (41)

Notables: Passed on Danny Granger (my personal favourite when this happened - twice) as well as David Lee and Monta Ellis. Still available at 41: Andray Blatche (fool), Lou Williams, Ryan Gomes, and Amir Johnson. If you want to work yourself into a frenzy Ellis went 40th.

The real crime here is that Portland traded the #3 pick (your choice of Chris Paul or Deron Williams) to Utah for the 6 and 27 (and then selected: Martell Webster and Linas Kleiza - yikes). Trading our 7 and 16 picks which is better in my opinion (especially if Portland's 'plan' was to take Martell Webster, likely there at 7) for either one of Paul or Williams would have completely changed things. I can't talk about this anymore.

2006
Round 1: Andrea Bargnani (1)
Round 2: PJ Tucker (35)

Notables: Obviously there are a bunch of non-Bargnani cases to be made for the 1st pick, I won't bother here. At 35 pretty much only Paul Millsap was still around, unless you want to agonize over missing Craig Smith or Leon Powe.

Seems like a good place to stop since I think everyone is familiar with the last few years of drafting.

Keeping young players is fairly easy as long as they're in a good situation where they can see the path to a championship. In the last few drafts OKC has added KD, Westbrook, Ibaka, Harden, and Maynor. The Raptors have been unable to consistently add players through the draft that provide the talent base that teams outside of the big US markets need to keep their own talent and attract others. Here's what we added to Bosh and Carter with 9 first round picks and a few seconds: Bargnani, A. Davis, MoPete, Villanueva, Graham, Jeffries, Bradley, Ukic, Tucker, Radojevic, Araujo.

I will now set myself on fire.

[Beaverboi]

Here's what we added to Bosh and Carter with 9 first round picks and a few seconds: Bargnani, A. Davis, MoPete, Villanueva, Graham, Jeffries, Bradley, Ukic, Tucker, Radojevic, Araujo.

I will now set myself on fire.

I would take that line-up any day..........For a run at the Y.

[ceez]

Part of the reason the raptors can't keep it's stars is the lack of winning though, too. Ed, DeMar and Sonny have all tweeted about how much they like Toronto (outside of the cold) and mentioned numerous times how they want to build something here. If the team perennially gets bumped out of the first round or so any player is going to lose interest. It's just the way it is. The raps have to build a winner in the next 3-4 years if they're going to keep any of these guys.

[Apollo]

You give DeRozan and Davis a reason to stay, and I think they will.

Yeah, and a strong head coach could be a deciding factor. Toronto has only employed one strong coach ever and they threw him under the bus after he said some things that needed to be said by someone, just not him...

[Employee]

Employee, you're unfortunately wrong on both points. I think you're seeing what you want to see instead of what history shows. Players aren't "unpredictable" at all. What always happens is they're drafted, and within 12 months we already know whether they're be great or not. Don't take my word for it, look at the historical record.
Secondly, a team full of "good young players" is not what the Raptors have. It is what the OKC team has. Here's how I know for sure: That team is winning, and the Raps aren't.
Basketball teams need studs to win. All-NBA types. Again, don't take my word for it, look at the record. Every single championship team in the modern era has been top-heavy with stars. That's what gets it done.
I think you're taking the kind of view, if I may say so, that the Raptors organization wants you to take, rather than the one supported by overwhelming objective evidence.

First, yeah that's usually the norm. But there are countless number of occasions when players exceed their expectations. Even after a year of playing. This isn't even an argument.

Second as for OKC, if they had the third pick and drafted Al Horford instead of Durant they wouldn't be in the playoffs now. And no one would be talking about how great their GM is. I really believe that.

[Brandon]

First, yeah that's usually the norm. But there are countless number of occasions when players exceed their expectations. Even after a year of playing. This isn't even an argument.

Provide me with one example of a player who was a scrub his first two years and an all-star later.

[Employee]

Provide me with one example of a player who was a scrub his first two years and an all-star later.

Scrub to an all-star? That's pretty tough. How about Jermaine O'neal. First 4 years never averaged more than 4 pts a game.

[Brandon]

Horrible example. Extremely unfair to O'Neal. He was nailed to the bench for an upper-tier playoff team. They weren't going to play a high school kid no matter what. His fortunes changed when he was traded to Indiana and got playing time. There's no player in similar circumstances on this Raptors team.

[Employee]

Horrible example. Extremely unfair to O'Neal. He was nailed to the bench for an upper-tier playoff team. They weren't going to play a high school kid no matter what. His fortunes changed when he was traded to Indiana and got playing time. There's no player in similar circumstances on this Raptors team.

Ugh. How about Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Brad Miller, David Lee, Mehmet Okur, Michael Redd, Gerald Wallace, and I'm gonna throw Mo Williams on there too.

Those are just active players.

BAM

[mcHAPPY]

Ugh. How about Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Brad Miller, David Lee, Mehmet Okur, Michael Redd, Gerald Wallace, and I'm gonna throw Mo Williams on there too.

Those are just active players.

BAM

I'm not going to lie... the 'BAM' made me giggle.

[Brandon]

Ugh. How about Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Brad Miller, David Lee, Mehmet Okur, Michael Redd, Gerald Wallace, and I'm gonna throw Mo Williams on there too.

Those are just active players.

BAM

(Ben) Wallace and Williams are rotation players. Miller, Lee, Redd, and Okur prove my case that players already are what they are almost from the first minute they step on the court. Billups suffered a couple of serious knee injuries his first few years but settled down and played well afterwards. (Gerald) Wallace and Nash played behind established starters in their early years but played well once they got the chance to play heavier minutes.
Hardly any of the guys you've mentioned are the kinds of studs a team needs to win in the NBA. Perennial all-stars are the required raw material.

[Raptors_]

Calm down guys. I predict that DeMar, JJ or ED will become an all star and lead this team... Hopefully

[Brandon]

Calm down guys. I predict that DeMar, JJ or ED will become an all star and lead this team... Hopefully

That's what Bryan Colangelo wants you to think.