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Thread: Who Needs a Franchise Player??

  1. #21
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You give DeRozan and Davis a reason to stay, and I think they will.
    Yeah, and a strong head coach could be a deciding factor. Toronto has only employed one strong coach ever and they threw him under the bus after he said some things that needed to be said by someone, just not him...

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Employee, you're unfortunately wrong on both points. I think you're seeing what you want to see instead of what history shows. Players aren't "unpredictable" at all. What always happens is they're drafted, and within 12 months we already know whether they're be great or not. Don't take my word for it, look at the historical record.
    Secondly, a team full of "good young players" is not what the Raptors have. It is what the OKC team has. Here's how I know for sure: That team is winning, and the Raps aren't.
    Basketball teams need studs to win. All-NBA types. Again, don't take my word for it, look at the record. Every single championship team in the modern era has been top-heavy with stars. That's what gets it done.
    I think you're taking the kind of view, if I may say so, that the Raptors organization wants you to take, rather than the one supported by overwhelming objective evidence.
    First, yeah that's usually the norm. But there are countless number of occasions when players exceed their expectations. Even after a year of playing. This isn't even an argument.

    Second as for OKC, if they had the third pick and drafted Al Horford instead of Durant they wouldn't be in the playoffs now. And no one would be talking about how great their GM is. I really believe that.
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  3. #23
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    First, yeah that's usually the norm. But there are countless number of occasions when players exceed their expectations. Even after a year of playing. This isn't even an argument.
    Provide me with one example of a player who was a scrub his first two years and an all-star later.

  4. #24
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Provide me with one example of a player who was a scrub his first two years and an all-star later.
    Scrub to an all-star? That's pretty tough. How about Jermaine O'neal. First 4 years never averaged more than 4 pts a game.
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    Horrible example. Extremely unfair to O'Neal. He was nailed to the bench for an upper-tier playoff team. They weren't going to play a high school kid no matter what. His fortunes changed when he was traded to Indiana and got playing time. There's no player in similar circumstances on this Raptors team.

  6. #26
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Horrible example. Extremely unfair to O'Neal. He was nailed to the bench for an upper-tier playoff team. They weren't going to play a high school kid no matter what. His fortunes changed when he was traded to Indiana and got playing time. There's no player in similar circumstances on this Raptors team.
    Ugh. How about Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Brad Miller, David Lee, Mehmet Okur, Michael Redd, Gerald Wallace, and I'm gonna throw Mo Williams on there too.

    Those are just active players.

    BAM
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  7. #27
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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    Ugh. How about Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Brad Miller, David Lee, Mehmet Okur, Michael Redd, Gerald Wallace, and I'm gonna throw Mo Williams on there too.

    Those are just active players.

    BAM
    I'm not going to lie... the 'BAM' made me giggle.

  8. #28
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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    Ugh. How about Steve Nash, Chauncey Billups, Ben Wallace, Brad Miller, David Lee, Mehmet Okur, Michael Redd, Gerald Wallace, and I'm gonna throw Mo Williams on there too.

    Those are just active players.

    BAM
    (Ben) Wallace and Williams are rotation players. Miller, Lee, Redd, and Okur prove my case that players already are what they are almost from the first minute they step on the court. Billups suffered a couple of serious knee injuries his first few years but settled down and played well afterwards. (Gerald) Wallace and Nash played behind established starters in their early years but played well once they got the chance to play heavier minutes.
    Hardly any of the guys you've mentioned are the kinds of studs a team needs to win in the NBA. Perennial all-stars are the required raw material.
    Last edited by Brandon; Wed Mar 30th, 2011 at 04:44 PM.

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    Calm down guys. I predict that DeMar, JJ or ED will become an all star and lead this team... Hopefully

  10. #30
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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    Calm down guys. I predict that DeMar, JJ or ED will become an all star and lead this team... Hopefully
    That's what Bryan Colangelo wants you to think.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Wallace and Williams are rotation players. Miller, Lee, Redd, and Okur prove my case that players already are what they are almost from the first minute they step on the court. Billups suffered a couple of serious knee injuries his first few years but settled down and played well afterwards. Wallace and Nash played behind established starters in their early years but played well once they got the chance to play heavier minutes.
    Hardly any of the guys you've mentioned are the kinds of studs a team needs to win in the NBA. Perennial all-stars are the required raw material.
    Dude what do you what from me? Throw me a fricken bone here.

    You asked for examples of players that were 'scrubs' their 1st two years that went on to be all-stars. I delivered. All those examples those players had very unspectacular rookie and sophomore years. Some more. I don't care if they played behind someone. I could make the argument that Bayless and Davis could be an all-star if he was a starter. Of course that sounds stupid but the point is YOU DONT KNOW CAUSE YOU AINT NOSTRADAMUS (all caps).

    Are you saying that you know exactly what type of career a player is going to have after "12 months"? Holy sh*t that is awesome!

    Are you saying that you knew Nash would be a 2-time all-star when he was playing backup to Kidd? Even under Nash's 1st year as a penciled in starter, his stats were pretty unremarkable. You knew that Ben Wallace was gonna get Defensive Player of the Year 63 times when he went undrafted? You knew that Gerald Wallace and Jermaine O'Neil would be all stars when all they could get was garbage time for 2 straight years??

    I hope an NBA exec reads this and hires you cause you should be making at least 6 figures.

    Brandon I'm sorry if im sounding like a dick here, but honestly man...honestly.
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  12. #32
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    (Ben) Wallace and Williams are rotation players. Miller, Lee, Redd, and Okur prove my case that players already are what they are almost from the first minute they step on the court. Billups suffered a couple of serious knee injuries his first few years but settled down and played well afterwards. (Gerald) Wallace and Nash played behind established starters in their early years but played well once they got the chance to play heavier minutes.
    Hardly any of the guys you've mentioned are the kinds of studs a team needs to win in the NBA. Perennial all-stars are the required raw material.
    Gotta disagree with you on all counts, here. Ben Wallace was 4 time Defensive Player of the Year award winner and 4 time All-Star. Gerald Wallace was a scrub his first few years and turned into a borderline All-Star. Michael Redd played just 6 games his first season, but became a perennial All-Star until his injury. Billups bounced around from Denver to Boston to Toronto to Minnesota, not playing well wherever he went until his fourth season in Minnesota. I don't recall him having any serious knee injuries, but even if he did, they had nothing to do with his struggles early.

    And teams need more than just perennial All-Stars to win. Lamar Odom has never been an All-Star, but the Lakers wouldn't have won their last Championship without him. And by the way, just about all those guys Employee mentioned are better than anyone the Raptors have right now.
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  13. #33
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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    Dude what do you what from me? Throw me a fricken bone here.

    You asked for examples of players that were 'scrubs' their 1st two years that went on to be all-stars. I delivered. All those examples those players had very unspectacular rookie and sophomore years. Some more. I don't care if they played behind someone. I could make the argument that Bayless and Davis could be an all-star if he was a starter. Of course that sounds stupid but the point is YOU DONT KNOW CAUSE YOU AINT NOSTRADAMUS (all caps).

    Are you saying that you know exactly what type of career a player is going to have after "12 months"? Holy sh*t that is awesome!

    Are you saying that you knew Nash would be a 2-time all-star when he was playing backup to Kidd? Even under Nash's 1st year as a penciled in starter, his stats were pretty unremarkable. You knew that Ben Wallace was gonna get Defensive Player of the Year 63 times when he went undrafted? You knew that Gerald Wallace and Jermaine O'Neil would be all stars when all they could get was garbage time for 2 straight years??

    I hope an NBA exec reads this and hires you cause you should be making at least 6 figures.

    Brandon I'm sorry if im sounding like a dick here, but honestly man...honestly.
    I hope I'm not sounding like a dick either.
    I think what I want from you is for you to admit and come to terms with the truth, even if it be unpleasant. Most NBA prospects only turn into back-end rotational filler, like DeRozan and Weems.
    As for the supposed predictions I'm making, it's actually you who are predicting, not me. I'm looking at historical evidence. You are saying this or that guy is going to all of a sudden turn into a good or great starter.
    Jermaine O'Neal played behind 4 veteran forwards on a championship-caliber team as a high schooler. Yes, everyone around the league knew he had an abundance of talent. But the Blazers couldn't play him ahead of guys like Schrempf and Sabonis, amongst others, when they were battling the Lakers for the title. Nash's first year playing >30 minutes per was 2000-01, when he posted all-star caliber numbers. He improved even more as the quarterback of D'Antoni's system.
    And yes, anyone could have seen that Ben Wallace would at least contend for the DPOY award. These guys don't develop their talents and skills after they come into the league. They are born with them and develop them as very young people. They slightly adjust their games to the speed and complexity of the NBA, but at a fundamental level they are what they are from the start. Sometimes, a player will refine one specific weapon, such as a long-range shot, through endless practice. That's about it. Nothing else changes.
    I think talent overcomes everything except injuries. It overcomes bad coaching, bad teammates, lack of experience et al.

    Non-hoops examples of talent overcoming lack of experience or development time: Rafael Nadal and Bjorn Borg won the French Open at 19. Pete Sampras won the U.S. Open at 19. Steffi Graf won the French Open, and went through the entire year with a 74-2 record at the age of 18. Maria Sharapova and Boris Becker won Wimbledon at 17. I would like to point out that DeRozan, as much as we all wanted him to succeed, is finishing his second year in the league having made little or no difference on the court and demonstrated only the skill to create his own post shots (and finish fast breaks). And he is 21.
    Last edited by Brandon; Wed Mar 30th, 2011 at 06:35 PM.

  14. #34
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    I hope I'm not sounding like a dick either.
    I think what I want from you is for you to admit and come to terms with the truth, even if it be unpleasant. Most NBA prospects only turn into back-end rotational filler, like DeRozan and Weems.
    As for the supposed predictions I'm making, it's actually you who are predicting, not me. I'm looking at historical evidence. You are saying this or that guy is going to all of a sudden turn into a good or great starter.
    Jermaine O'Neal played behind 4 veteran forwards on a championship-caliber team as a high schooler. Yes, everyone around the league knew he had an abundance of talent. But the Blazers couldn't play him ahead of guys like Schrempf and Sabonis, amongst others, when they were battling the Lakers for the title. Nash's first year playing >30 minutes per was 2000-01, when he posted all-star caliber numbers. He improved even more as the quarterback of D'Antoni's system.
    And yes, anyone could have seen that Ben Wallace would at least contend for the DPOY award. These guys don't develop their talents and skills after they come into the league. They are born with them and develop them as very young people. They slightly adjust their games to the speed and complexity of the NBA, but at a fundamental level they are what they are from the start. Sometimes, a player will refine one specific weapon, such as a long-range shot, through endless practice. That's about it. Nothing else changes.
    I think talent overcomes everything except injuries. It overcomes bad coaching, bad teammates, lack of experience et al.

    Non-hoops examples of talent overcoming lack of experience or development time: Rafael Nadal and Bjorn Borg won the French Open at 19. Pete Sampras won the U.S. Open at 19. Steffi Graf won the French Open, and went through the entire year with a 74-2 record at the age of 18. Maria Sharapova and Boris Becker won Wimbledon at 17. I would like to point out that DeRozan, as much as well all wanted him to succeed, is finishing his second year in the league having made little or no difference on the court and demonstrated only the skill to create his own post shots (and finish fast breaks). And he is 21.
    Most players show what they will be in their first year, but you can't say that they all do. Some play behind better players, others simply don't get the chance, but some also just need time to adjust. Chauncey Billups was a high lottery pick that was written off as a bust pretty early. I liked Ben Wallace and thought that Orlando shouldn't have given him up to get Grant Hill, but I never imagine he would become the player he did and I would like to see any evidence that says that anyone else did.

    Like it or not, but players develop at different rates. Some are late bloomers, some are early bloomers. Some look like they will be great and never amount to much and others surprise you.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Gotta disagree with you on all counts, here. Ben Wallace was 4 time Defensive Player of the Year award winner and 4 time All-Star. Gerald Wallace was a scrub his first few years and turned into a borderline All-Star. Michael Redd played just 6 games his first season, but became a perennial All-Star until his injury. Billups bounced around from Denver to Boston to Toronto to Minnesota, not playing well wherever he went until his fourth season in Minnesota. I don't recall him having any serious knee injuries, but even if he did, they had nothing to do with his struggles early.
    Try hitting yourself on the kneecap with a hammer as hard as you can, and then try to play ball and tell me it doesn't affect your quality of play.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    And teams need more than just perennial All-Stars to win. Lamar Odom has never been an All-Star, but the Lakers wouldn't have won their last Championship without him.
    To win, a team needs as many top 50 players as possible. To win it all, a team needs as many top 20, or better, players as possible.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    And by the way, just about all those guys Employee mentioned are better than anyone the Raptors have right now.
    That's putting it mildly.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Most players show what they will be in their first year, but you can't say that they all do. Some play behind better players, others simply don't get the chance, but some also just need time to adjust. Chauncey Billups was a high lottery pick that was written off as a bust pretty early. I liked Ben Wallace and thought that Orlando shouldn't have given him up to get Grant Hill, but I never imagine he would become the player he did and I would like to see any evidence that says that anyone else did.

    Like it or not, but players develop at different rates. Some are late bloomers, some are early bloomers. Some look like they will be great and never amount to much and others surprise you.
    Keep in mind, I'm only talking about the kinds of players who really make a difference on the court. I'm not talking about benchwarmers/rotation players/good starters. I'm talking about the kinds of prime movers that perennially make all-star teams, because if you want to win it all, that's what you need. Those guys are forces of nature who don't need years in the league to develop mild skills. They bend the game to their will early on.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    (Ben) Wallace and Williams are rotation players. Miller, Lee, Redd, and Okur prove my case that players already are what they are almost from the first minute they step on the court. Billups suffered a couple of serious knee injuries his first few years but settled down and played well afterwards. (Gerald) Wallace and Nash played behind established starters in their early years but played well once they got the chance to play heavier minutes.
    Hardly any of the guys you've mentioned are the kinds of studs a team needs to win in the NBA. Perennial all-stars are the required raw material.
    Just concede the point. Arguing Ben Wallace was a rotation guy is nuts. Billups suffered one shoulder injury I believe but he didn't suffer 'a couple of serious knee injuries' (you're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts). Billups blossomed in Detroit but he was considered a bust until then. Also, your criteria was "all-star" - Mo Williams was an All-star, so he does count.

    Nash's first season in Dallas was a disaster. The fans wanted to run him out of town. G. Wallace was awful when he came into the NBA - his game improved leaps and bounds over time.

    You are correct that typically most all-star calibre players show signs by their second year but it doesn't apply in all cases and as more and more young guys come into the league there will be more guys who break the mold.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Try hitting yourself on the kneecap with a hammer as hard as you can, and then try to play ball and tell me it doesn't affect your quality of play.
    Unless you're telling me that Chauncey Billups hit himself on the knee as hard as he can, you lost me. Besides, any injury that Billups might have had didn't happen until his second year. Take a look at his first season and tell me you saw a future 3rd team All NBA player. He played 27 minutes, scored 11 ppg on 37% shooting and only dished out 3.9 apg. And Boston, Toronto and eventually Denver gave up on him. If you saw it, the vast majority of basketball people didn't.

    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    To win, a team needs as many top 50 players as possible. To win it all, a team needs as many top 20, or better, players as possible.
    Okay. But that doesn't deny the fact that some very, very good players simply did not look like that early in their career.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Okay. But that doesn't deny the fact that some very, very good players simply did not look like that early in their career.
    Well put.

    Brandon, I know when to concede and say I was wrong when I need to, but if you can honestly say that you really knew that Billups, Nash, Gerald and Ben Wallace were going to be all stars after "12 months" I'll shut up now.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Unless you're telling me that Chauncey Billups hit himself on the knee as hard as he can, you lost me. Besides, any injury that Billups might have had didn't happen until his second year. Take a look at his first season and tell me you saw a future 3rd team All NBA player. He played 27 minutes, scored 11 ppg on 37% shooting and only dished out 3.9 apg. And Boston, Toronto and eventually Denver gave up on him. If you saw it, the vast majority of basketball people didn't.
    Billups' numbers have remained more or less the same as he's been healthy. The difference is he's taking more shots and being more involved in the running of the offense. But he's not a prime mover. He won't impose 25+ extra wins on a team.

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