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Thread: Who Needs a Franchise Player??

  1. #41
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Just concede the point. Arguing Ben Wallace was a rotation guy is nuts. Billups suffered one shoulder injury I believe but he didn't suffer 'a couple of serious knee injuries' (you're entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts). Billups blossomed in Detroit but he was considered a bust until then. Also, your criteria was "all-star" - Mo Williams was an All-star, so he does count.

    Nash's first season in Dallas was a disaster. The fans wanted to run him out of town. G. Wallace was awful when he came into the NBA - his game improved leaps and bounds over time.

    You are correct that typically most all-star calibre players show signs by their second year but it doesn't apply in all cases and as more and more young guys come into the league there will be more guys who break the mold.
    Ben Wallace seems to be highly overrated in present company that's for damned sure. Billups is a good, overrated, player. Mo Williams is an average, overrated player. It's awfully easy to look good when the heavy lifting is being done by Lebron James.

    Steve Nash must have been injured in his first two seasons in Dallas, otherwise I don't know why he played so few games.

    As for "conceding the point", Tim already conceded that the Raptors don't have any good players, so I'll concede this: it's possible for a combination of factors to limit a player's effectiveness in a given situation. Those factors might include poor coaching, playing behind trusted or superior veterans, and injuries. Beyond that, talent can't be stopped.

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    Well put.

    Brandon, I know when to concede and say I was wrong when I need to, but if you can honestly say that you really knew that Billups, Nash, Gerald and Ben Wallace were going to be all stars after "12 months" I'll shut up now.
    Since I don't approve of the all-star voting system, which puts ignorant fans in the driver's seat, I'll cheerfully concede that point.

  3. #43
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Ben Wallace seems to be highly overrated in present company that's for damned sure. Billups is a good, overrated, player. Mo Williams is an average, overrated player. It's awfully easy to look good when the heavy lifting is being done by Lebron James.

    Steve Nash must have been injured in his first two seasons in Dallas, otherwise I don't know why he played so few games.

    As for "conceding the point", Tim already conceded that the Raptors don't have any good players, so I'll concede this: it's possible for a combination of factors to limit a player's effectiveness in a given situation. Those factors might include poor coaching, playing behind trusted or superior veterans, and injuries. Beyond that, talent can't be stopped.
    I conceded that the Raptors don't have any players that are CURRENTLY borderline All-Star players. I do believe, however that both DeRozan and Davis have the potential to be at least that.
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Since I don't approve of the all-star voting system, which puts ignorant fans in the driver's seat, I'll cheerfully concede that point.
    That's only for the starters. The coaches select the rest of the All-Stars. And if you don't think Nash, Billups or either Wallace were worthy All-Stars, then it seems we don't agree on a whole lot.

    And by the way, Ben Wallace was only one of two players that have won the Defensive Player of the Year Award four times. Perhaps you are the one who is underrating him.
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  5. #45
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    That's only for the starters. The coaches select the rest of the All-Stars. And if you don't think Nash, Billups or either Wallace were worthy All-Stars, then it seems we don't agree on a whole lot.

    And by the way, Ben Wallace was only one of two players that have won the Defensive Player of the Year Award four times. Perhaps you are the one who is underrating him.
    Nash certainly was deserving of all-star status. I do not rate one-dimensional players like Ben/Gerald Wallace, Bargnani, DeRozan highly, no. To make a difference, a player must do everything at least well. He has to do a few things extremely well. Players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Wilt et al. did everything well, and were constantly pressuring the opposition as a result. DeRozan does one thing well, and nothing else at an NBA level. He's a 10th man at best on a championship team.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    DeRozan does one thing well, and nothing else at an NBA level. He's a 10th man at best on a championship team.
    It's his second year... he's still developing

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I conceded that the Raptors don't have any players that are CURRENTLY borderline All-Star players. I do believe, however that both DeRozan and Davis have the potential to be at least that.
    I want to get you to explain your views on DeRozan so I'm clear on exactly what they are. Here's my view of him: He can legitimately create shots for himself in the paint. He can finish the break efficiently. He cannot shoot outside the paint, pass, handle the rock, or defend. He is usually a step or two behind everyone else in terms of the offensive/defensive system (low hoops IQ).
    Maybe that's not how you see it. But if he was better than I judge him to be, the Raptors would be winning a lot more games than they are.
    But anyway, this guy is a one-trick pony. In my view, the skills he lacks are too great in number and far from trivial. He cannot develop these skills if he didn't already have some aptitude for them. I see no evidence of such aptitudes. If players could simply come into the league and develop competence in these skills at a high level, then I imagine anyone could. Anyone could simply walk in off the streets, work hard, and become a pro basketball player.

  8. #48
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Nash certainly was deserving of all-star status. I do not rate one-dimensional players like Ben/Gerald Wallace, Bargnani, DeRozan highly, no. To make a difference, a player must do everything at least well. He has to do a few things extremely well. Players like Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar, Wilt et al. did everything well, and were constantly pressuring the opposition as a result. DeRozan does one thing well, and nothing else at an NBA level. He's a 10th man at best on a championship team.
    You're jumping all over the place here. Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar and Wilt are some of the best players to ever play the game. They are well above All-Stars. I'm not sure why you're bringing them up because we were talking about All-Stars, not MVPs.

    Ben Wallace was the defensive anchor to one of the best defensive teams in the last decade and was a very important part of Detroit winning their Championship. It's a good bet that without Wallace, they don't win.

    Gerald Wallace averaged between 15 and 20 ppg in the last 6 years, and he has been one of the best defensive players at his position during that time too. I fail to see how he's a one dimensional player.

    As for Bargnani and DeRozan, I don't think either one is close to an All-Star and never said they were.

    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    I want to get you to explain your views on DeRozan so I'm clear on exactly what they are. Here's my view of him: He can legitimately create shots for himself in the paint. He can finish the break efficiently. He cannot shoot outside the paint, pass, handle the rock, or defend. He is usually a step or two behind everyone else in terms of the offensive/defensive system (low hoops IQ).
    Maybe that's not how you see it. But if he was better than I judge him to be, the Raptors would be winning a lot more games than they are.
    But anyway, this guy is a one-trick pony. In my view, the skills he lacks are too great in number and far from trivial. He cannot develop these skills if he didn't already have some aptitude for them. I see no evidence of such aptitudes. If players could simply come into the league and develop competence in these skills at a high level, then I imagine anyone could. Anyone could simply walk in off the streets, work hard, and become a pro basketball player.
    DeRozan is still a fairly raw player who is athletic, has a knack for getting to the hoop, has learned to move very well without the ball, and has a very good mid-range shot. He's not a good defensive player, but has shown flashes that he could be. He has the physical ability and, apparently the will, but still needs to learn more. Of course, the fact that he's in his second year means he still has the potential to improve a fair bit.

    Your assertion that he can't shoot outside the paint is completely wrong. That was the case last year, and even the first couple of months, but his range has expanded to about 20 feet and he's a pretty high percentage shoot from there.

    Your claim that if DeRozan was a better player than you think, Toronto would have won more games doesn't make sense. DeRozan is a second year player and still fairly raw. Kevin Durant's team only won 23 games his first year. And he was much farther along than DeRozan at that stage.

    The fact is, I'm willing to give DeRozan some leeway because he is only in his second year and only his third out of high school. If, in a couple of years, DeRozan is relatively the same player he is now, then, as I've said, I'll be the first one in line to call for a trade. But the guy is a renowned gym rat who constantly works on his game. He's made huge strides in the last two years, which is why I'm optimistic. He's literally improved in every single aspect of his game (unlike others). He's still got a long way to go, but the point is I like he progress.
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  9. #49
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I disagree. There's this myth, I believe, that Toronto can't hold onto it's stars, but apart from Tracy McGrady, not one of the stars left a team worth staying on. In other words, neither Stoudamire, Carter or Bosh were given a reason to stay. Stoudamire left because ownership pushed out his mentor, and the franchise was in chaos. Carter was on a team that was being run into the ground by Babcock. And Bosh left after the Raptors missed the playoffs for the second year in a row, and was worse than it was 4 years ago, when it didn't even get past the 1st round. A lot of people questioned HOW Carter and Bosh left, but I don't think anyone can blame them for wanting to leave.

    You give DeRozan and Davis a reason to stay, and I think they will.
    I don't mean to sound trite, but if you can cite Mighty Mouse, VC, T-Mac and CB4, mention Babcock, and talk about Toronto's overall executive and managerial shoddiness as a franchise then you're disproving what you say is a myth about players not staying.

    I know what you're trying to say though -- that it isn't Toronto as a city that's driving them out. It's our perennial lack of depth, culture of losing, poor management/draft choices, high taxes/lousy dollar (less so now), theme park uniforms and so on.

    If I'm Ed Davis and DeRozan, I'm looking at a team that isn't any good (and wasn't any good last year), had its best player publicly (if quietly) insult it, has been a veritable carousel of players for the last 5 years and doesn't have an owner that they can point to and say 'that guy/girl is willing to pay to win'.

    What reason could we give them to stay? And are they even good enough that we should try to keep them? They certainly aren't good enough that we could built around them, and I don't see us immediately trading for a star a la Melo (not that I'd want him) or attracting one like Chris Paul.

    So we'd need to draft a superstar and gave them two or three years to mature. Then a few more years of losing in the playoffs. Like Bosh, I'm not sure that ED and DD would want to stick around while the Raps stink up the joint or dry hump mediocrity.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Since I don't approve of the all-star voting system, which puts ignorant fans in the driver's seat, I'll cheerfully concede that point.
    Haha. ooook.

    Well I know Gerald Wallace was never voted in. Not sure how many the other guys started but I'm gonna say none to hardly any. So I don't know what you're trying to say there either.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You're jumping all over the place here. Jordan, Magic, Bird, Oscar and Wilt are some of the best players to ever play the game. They are well above All-Stars. I'm not sure why you're bringing them up because we were talking about All-Stars, not MVPs.
    Yeah, how bad does a player have to be before I can use him as an example? How bad can a team be at the top and still win it all? It seems like they need hall-of-famers. Detroit's win against the Lakers was an aberration due to the turmoil in the Lakers locker room at the time. The Lakers were a far more talented team.

    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Ben Wallace was the defensive anchor to one of the best defensive teams in the last decade and was a very important part of Detroit winning their Championship. It's a good bet that without Wallace, they don't win.

    Gerald Wallace averaged between 15 and 20 ppg in the last 6 years, and he has been one of the best defensive players at his position during that time too. I fail to see how he's a one dimensional player.

    As for Bargnani and DeRozan, I don't think either one is close to an All-Star and never said they were.



    DeRozan is still a fairly raw player who is athletic, has a knack for getting to the hoop, has learned to move very well without the ball, and has a very good mid-range shot. He's not a good defensive player, but has shown flashes that he could be. He has the physical ability and, apparently the will, but still needs to learn more. Of course, the fact that he's in his second year means he still has the potential to improve a fair bit.

    Your assertion that he can't shoot outside the paint is completely wrong. That was the case last year, and even the first couple of months, but his range has expanded to about 20 feet and he's a pretty high percentage shoot from there.

    Your claim that if DeRozan was a better player than you think, Toronto would have won more games doesn't make sense. DeRozan is a second year player and still fairly raw. Kevin Durant's team only won 23 games his first year. And he was much farther along than DeRozan at that stage.

    The fact is, I'm willing to give DeRozan some leeway because he is only in his second year and only his third out of high school. If, in a couple of years, DeRozan is relatively the same player he is now, then, as I've said, I'll be the first one in line to call for a trade. But the guy is a renowned gym rat who constantly works on his game. He's made huge strides in the last two years, which is why I'm optimistic. He's literally improved in every single aspect of his game (unlike others). He's still got a long way to go, but the point is I like he progress.
    Please don't use Gerald Wallace's ppg as a measure of his scoring ability, because you'll lower my opinion of you. Wallace is a garbage scorer only. He cannot create his own shots. He scores by cleaning up the rim. He's a fine complementary piece on a winning team. That is all. He can't do the heavy lifting it takes to win it all (you agree with me that winning it all is the longterm goal, right?)

    You're using the euphemistic terms I described in another thread -- "He's raw, he's not very far along in his development, it's only his second year, he still needs to learn more, he still has the potential to improve a fair bit..."

    Why isn't he further along in his development? Why can't he already do the things he needs to develop? He's been playing the game since he was a little kid in Hell-A. Why is he only now learning how to handle the ball, and shoot it? I'd say because he has no aptitude for these things.

    BTW, I agree with you 100% on the reason players might not want to remain with the Raptors. Why do players want to play in Dallas, a small market in the middle of nowhere? It's the management/organization that counts. And the Raps pushed Vinsanity out by siding with Rafer Alston.

    The organization is a group of pitiful amateurs. When things don't go their way, they blame the players.

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    Haha. ooook.

    Well I know Gerald Wallace was never voted in. Not sure how many the other guys started but I'm gonna say none to hardly any. So I don't know what you're trying to say there either.
    I was trying to make a flip remark. Sorry if it went over your head.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    I was trying to make a flip remark. Sorry if it went over your head.
    You're all over the place man.

    Quick recap: You said you can tell if a player is going to be an all-star within 12 months. You asked me for examples of players that were scrubs for 2 years (even though there's 24 months in 2 years, just sayin) that became all-stars. I gave a nice list. You then flipped between they don't meet YOUR criteria cause they aren't good enough, or that you knew all along, despite no other GM or journalistic 'experts' saw the same thing you did.

    I don't believe you.

    Lastly I never actually said that DD or Ed would be all-stars. I basically said it's too early to come to any conclusions. You've made yours, whatever.
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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    You're all over the place man.

    Quick recap: You said you can tell if a player is going to be an all-star within 12 months. You asked me for examples of players that were scrubs for 2 years (even though there's 24 months in 2 years, just sayin) that became all-stars. I gave a nice list. You then flipped between they don't meet YOUR criteria cause they aren't good enough, or that you knew all along, despite no other GM or journalistic 'experts' saw the same thing you did.

    I don't believe you.

    Lastly I never actually said that DD or Ed would be all-stars. I basically said it's too early to come to any conclusions. You've made yours, whatever.
    Right, I'm all over the place. Yep.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Yeah, how bad does a player have to be before I can use him as an example? How bad can a team be at the top and still win it all? It seems like they need hall-of-famers. Detroit's win against the Lakers was an aberration due to the turmoil in the Lakers locker room at the time. The Lakers were a far more talented team.
    I really have no idea what your argument is. You said that you can tell a player is an All-Star after one year, to which several of us brought up examples which disprove that theory. No one mentioned anything about MVP-calibre players. If you want to argue that none of the current Raptors will become MVP calibre players, I don't think you'll get much opposition. But that wasn't your argument. The Raptors obviously need a franchise player, but as far as I know, the argument was that guys like DeRozan and Ed Davis still have the potential to become very good players, possibly even All-Stars.

    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Please don't use Gerald Wallace's ppg as a measure of his scoring ability, because you'll lower my opinion of you. Wallace is a garbage scorer only. He cannot create his own shots. He scores by cleaning up the rim. He's a fine complementary piece on a winning team. That is all. He can't do the heavy lifting it takes to win it all (you agree with me that winning it all is the longterm goal, right?)

    You're using the euphemistic terms I described in another thread -- "He's raw, he's not very far along in his development, it's only his second year, he still needs to learn more, he still has the potential to improve a fair bit..."

    Why isn't he further along in his development? Why can't he already do the things he needs to develop? He's been playing the game since he was a little kid in Hell-A. Why is he only now learning how to handle the ball, and shoot it? I'd say because he has no aptitude for these things.

    BTW, I agree with you 100% on the reason players might not want to remain with the Raptors. Why do players want to play in Dallas, a small market in the middle of nowhere? It's the management/organization that counts. And the Raps pushed Vinsanity out by siding with Rafer Alston.

    The organization is a group of pitiful amateurs. When things don't go their way, they blame the players.
    You said that Gerald Wallace was a one-dimensional player. He's not. He's certainly not a great offensive player, but he can score. There's really no doubt of that.

    As for DeRozan's development, some people develop at different rates. That's a fact of life. Perhaps he didn't have great coaching early, who knows, but the fact is that he has tools to become a good player and has shows quite a bit of progress over the last two years.

    As for the the organization siding with Alston, I don't recall anything about that, but I do know that Babcock was a horrible GM and even Vince Carter could see that. I disagree totally with how he handled it, but I don't blame him at all for wanting to be traded. At that point, the team looked like it was going nowhere.
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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Right, I'm all over the place. Yep.
    I have to agree. I really have no idea half of what you are actually trying argue.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I really have no idea what your argument is. You said that you can tell a player is an All-Star after one year, to which several of us brought up examples which disprove that theory. No one mentioned anything about MVP-calibre players. If you want to argue that none of the current Raptors will become MVP calibre players, I don't think you'll get much opposition. But that wasn't your argument. The Raptors obviously need a franchise player, but as far as I know, the argument was that guys like DeRozan and Ed Davis still have the potential to become very good players, possibly even All-Stars.



    You said that Gerald Wallace was a one-dimensional player. He's not. He's certainly not a great offensive player, but he can score. There's really no doubt of that.

    As for DeRozan's development, some people develop at different rates. That's a fact of life. Perhaps he didn't have great coaching early, who knows, but the fact is that he has tools to become a good player and has shows quite a bit of progress over the last two years.

    As for the the organization siding with Alston, I don't recall anything about that, but I do know that Babcock was a horrible GM and even Vince Carter could see that. I disagree totally with how he handled it, but I don't blame him at all for wanting to be traded. At that point, the team looked like it was going nowhere.
    Sounds like you're just confused by what I meant by "all-star". I didn't mean 'can one day make an all-star team if everything goes his way'. There are lots of guys who have done that. For example: Jameer Nelson, Mo Williams, A.C. Green et al. I meant, rather, 'if healthy, is expected to perennially make the all-star team, and contend for MVP', such as Dirk, Lebron, KB24, D-Wade et al. I go back to the original post in this thread, "you don't necessarily need a "franchise" player to build around". That is not correct. No championship team has ever lacked a franchise player. In fact, they all needed more than one. Barkley wasn't enough to bring a title to Phoenix or Philly. Jordan wasn't enough in Chicago.

    I understand that DeRozan might one day in the distant future become "a very good player". It doesn't matter. The ball club needs a player who could single-handedly add 25 or more wins to the team's total. Once you've got 2 or 3 guys like that, the rest of the roster can be easily tweaked. Guys like DDR can be brought in on the cheap. Chicago did it this past offseason when they added Ronnie Brewer and Kyle Korver as free agents. No NBA team has ever won a title with a team full of 'very good players'. There was always at least one MVP-type at the top.

    Tim, here's an interpretation of the Vinsanity/Alston thing that I think you'll find unsurprising. It might be apocryphal, but worth reading:
    http://forums.realgm.com/boards/view...t=45#p17041308

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Sounds like you're just confused by what I meant by "all-star". I didn't mean 'can one day make an all-star team if everything goes his way'. There are lots of guys who have done that. For example: Jameer Nelson, Mo Williams, A.C. Green et al. I meant, rather, 'if healthy, is expected to perennially make the all-star team, and contend for MVP', such as Dirk, Lebron, KB24, D-Wade et al. I go back to the original post in this thread, "you don't necessarily need a "franchise" player to build around". That is not correct. No championship team has ever lacked a franchise player. In fact, they all needed more than one. Barkley wasn't enough to bring a title to Phoenix or Philly. Jordan wasn't enough in Chicago.

    I understand that DeRozan might one day in the distant future become "a very good player". It doesn't matter. The ball club needs a player who could single-handedly add 25 or more wins to the team's total. Once you've got 2 or 3 guys like that, the rest of the roster can be easily tweaked. Guys like DDR can be brought in on the cheap. Chicago did it this past offseason when they added Ronnie Brewer and Kyle Korver as free agents. No NBA team has ever won a title with a team full of 'very good players'. There was always at least one MVP-type at the top.

    Tim, here's an interpretation of the Vinsanity/Alston thing that I think you'll find unsurprising. It might be apocryphal, but worth reading:
    http://forums.realgm.com/boards/view...t=45#p17041308
    I think, and I could probably get most to agree with me on this, that there's a big difference between even a perennial All-Star and an MVP calibre player. There are generally only a handful of MVP calibre players in the NBA. Chris Bosh is a perennial All-Star, but I don't think anyone would have said he'd ever be a legit MVP candidate. Joe Johnson is in the same boat, as is Paul Pierce, Pau Gasol, among others.

    I'm not arguing that a team needs a franchise player. I said as much in my first post on the subject. And the vast majority of franchise players certainly have shown that potential in their first season, but there's no reason to believe that DeRozan or Ed Davis can't possibly one day be important pieces to building a Championship contender.

    On paper, a Championship team would consist of one top five player, one top 20 player, one or two top 50 players and some good role players. Neither Davis or DeRozan will probably ever be a top 5 player, and top 20 is probably a reach, but both definitely have the potential to be top 50 players. And Amir I can see being an excellent role player. Maybe even Calderon, depending on the circumstances. That's four players that I consider to be players I would like to build a team with. It's not great, but it's certainly not bad.
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    Oh, and I didn't like the hiring of Babcock from the get-go. He did more damage to the Raptors organization than anyone, I think.
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    Probably. He's an example of why you don't give the keys to a guy who only had experience riding shotgun.

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