5 Steps To Fixing The Raptors

[slaw]

You just pwned Raptors4life. And i was trying to tell people too that BC is a good GM. You can't call a guy who made phoenix a 62 win team a scrub. If we don't re sign this guy its going to take way more fckin longer to rebuild.

I am not sure how he owned anyone. The Raptors were bad defensively before BC came here. They are bad now. That's all the original post said. All that Matt quoted were some defensive stats from three seasons ago. How did that prove the Raptors aren't terrible defensively now? I know why the stats for the last 3 years weren't listed and so does Matt...

As for the rest, well, it's the old standby's for the BC-backers: arguing by appealing to authority (he's respected by "them" and some mysterious dudes no one can name); argument by assertion (BC is good cause he's good); appeals to past status (but he won executive of the year!); the ol' fear of the unknown (it could be worse); and the stability canard (we need stability in management otherwise we'll be... worse??). The only usual ones left out were: it was Bosh's fault, it was Mitchell's fault, it's Triano's fault, no one wants to play in Toronto, and the ol' he tries really, really hard - look at all the deals he makes!

Not saying there aren't good arguments to keep BC (he drafts well, he's a creative thinker, he's very experienced, he's great with media and fans, he is fearless) but the pap above isn't it.

[mcHAPPY]

I am not sure how he owned anyone. The Raptors were bad defensively before BC came here. They are bad now. That's all the original post said. All that Matt quoted were some defensive stats from three seasons ago. How did that prove the Raptors aren't terrible defensively now? I know why the stats for the last 3 years weren't listed and so does Matt...

As for the rest, well, it's the old standby's for the BC-backers: arguing by appealing to authority (he's respected by "them" and some mysterious dudes no one can name); argument by assertion (BC is good cause he's good); appeals to past status (but he won executive of the year!); the ol' fear of the unknown (it could be worse); and the stability canard (we need stability in management otherwise we'll be... worse??). The only usual ones left out were: it was Bosh's fault, it was Mitchell's fault, it's Triano's fault, no one wants to play in Toronto, and the ol' he tries really, really hard - look at all the deals he makes!

Not saying there aren't good arguments to keep BC (he drafts well, he's a creative thinker, he's very experienced, he's great with media and fans, he is fearless) but the pap above isn't it.

I never listed the stats for the last 3 years because I stopped looking at the seasons once the point was made that BC has had good defensive teams here.

The reply to Raptor4ever was to show others he cherry picked the posts in the thread. His post implied the Raps were awful when BC got here and are awful now - which is true. However it makes no reference to the in between, the 2 very competitive seasons the Raptors had where they were an above average defensive team in the league when they made the playoffs with Colangelo as the GM.

As my original post said, that was quoted in my reply, BC built the Raps in reverse compared to OKC and Presti. OKC sucked for 2/3 years before getting good. The Raps were competitive for 2 years and have now sucked for 2 out of 3 years.

The reality still stands that most people have the mindset of what have you done for me recently. Few posters remember the competitive years, which have been 3 of the last 4 (EDIT: 3 of 5 if you count this year but I don't because this is total demolition mode), and few have the foresight to see how the worst of the rebuild is over for the franchise. I would be shocked if the Raps end up like MIN or SAC - teams that are in constant rebuild, year after year of recent memory - if Colangelo is kept on. The worst of this is over, the band aid has been ripped off, and it was done very quickly which is what a good GM does when the decision is made to go for a total rebuild.

[sleepz]

The ignorance is unreal. Please refer to this post:



Now consider:

the Raptors PPG allowed in 2005/06 was 29th in the league and defensive rating was also 29th. (this was PRE-BC).
the Raptors PPG allowed in 2006/07 was 16th and defensive rating was 12th. (this was WITH BC)
the Raptors PPG allowed in 2007/08 was 10th and defensive rating was 13th. (this was WITH BC)

You see when pre-conceived notions or biased opinions meet facts, facts usually win out.

The man is one of the most respected GM's in the league and has 2 EOY to show for it. BC not renewing will most definitely lead to a moment sometime next season when people realize, "Damn, we had it good." That is my opinion of course, as is this: I wish the people who post comments like this would just say, "I hate BC with no logical reason other than I can't remember a couple of seasons ago and I little to no foresight. I only care about the present."

My question would be who do you attribute that success to those previous seasons you are referring to? The defensive ratings you've identified was with BC as GM but with Sam Mitchell as coach. Not to say this was the only significant changes on the team but since Mitchell has been gone BC's selection as coach has not achieved a winning season or any season with respectable defensive rankings.

BC's firing of Mitchell was his decision and the defence has been horrendous under Triano's watch. I know the argument was that the team needed a change that year or they weren't performing up to expectations but he was fired at 8-9. The team finished 15 games under .500. Where did the expectations go?

I would argue to say that Mitchell had far more to do with those previous successful years than BC did.

He might have 2 E.O.Y's but the world, particularly in sports is always evolving and past accomplishments don't guarantee future ones.

[sleepz]

Bad coaching, no leader in the locker room.

Trickle down effect. Smitch and Triano cant coach, CB couldnt lead.

Well for one year at least the NBA seemed to think that Mitchell could coach.

[sleepz]

I never listed the stats for the last 3 years because I stopped looking at the seasons once the point was made that BC has had good defensive teams here.

The reply to Raptor4ever was to show others he cherry picked the posts in the thread. His post implied the Raps were awful when BC got here and are awful now - which is true. However it makes no reference to the in between, the 2 very competitive seasons the Raptors had where they were an above average defensive team in the league when they made the playoffs with Colangelo as the GM.

As my original post said, that was quoted in my reply, BC built the Raps in reverse compared to OKC and Presti. OKC sucked for 2/3 years before getting good. The Raps were competitive for 2 years and have now sucked for 2 out of 3 years.

The reality still stands that most people have the mindset of what have you done for me recently. Few posters remember the competitive years, which have been 3 of the last 4 (EDIT: 3 of 5 if you count this year but I don't because this is total demolition mode), and few have the foresight to see how the worst of the rebuild is over for the franchise. I would be shocked if the Raps end up like MIN or SAC - teams that are in constant rebuild, year after year of recent memory - if Colangelo is kept on. The worst of this is over, the band aid has been ripped off, and it was done very quickly which is what a good GM does when the decision is made to go for a total rebuild.

I definitely do, but those 3 years had Bosh in Raps uniform in all 3 of those years and Mitchell as head coach in 2 of them. If you are referring to last year as succesful I would argue that BC's expectations were alot higher than 40-42 with a roster he thought should win 50 games that year.

I know the impression is that it has been a total rebuild but a "total" rebuild would most likely see the whole roster revamped and there are still key holdovers (Bargnani, Calderon) still present on the roster. The worst is over in some peoples opinions but when you gauge the young talent level of this team there might be a few more years of "worst" left to come before the team gets better.

[slaw]

The worst is over in some peoples opinions but when you gauge the young talent level of this team there might be a few more years of "worst" left to come before the team gets better.

I think most people concede this team won't be very good next year and maybe even the year after. The big unknown for me is: who do they get in this draft? If you draft Derrick Williams, for example, and he turns into Paul Pierce, then your rebuild is in great shape. If, on the other hand, he needs 2 years to find his game your curve is much steeper. I think a lot also depends on Davis and Derozan and how much they improve. If they both take big leaps and your draft pick is a stud then you are in really good shape. It would also be nice to find a vet on the perimeter like Anthony Parker to help Derozan, Johnson, 2011 pick.

[RaptorDan]

I think this is a good article. Colangelo should stay. I like the pieces he has gathered in the last year and am looking forward to what he will do before next season. Its going to be interesting to see what happens with Triano and Bargnani. However, I don't think either are going anywhere.

[mcHAPPY]

My question would be who do you attribute that success to those previous seasons you are referring to? The defensive ratings you've identified was with BC as GM but with Sam Mitchell as coach. Not to say this was the only significant changes on the team but since Mitchell has been gone BC's selection as coach has not achieved a winning season or any season with respectable defensive rankings.

BC's firing of Mitchell was his decision and the defence has been horrendous under Triano's watch. I know the argument was that the team needed a change that year or they weren't performing up to expectations but he was fired at 8-9. The team finished 15 games under .500. Where did the expectations go?

I would argue to say that Mitchell had far more to do with those previous successful years than BC did.

He might have 2 E.O.Y's but the world, particularly in sports is always evolving and past accomplishments don't guarantee future ones.

The coach works with what the GM gives them to work with. Most of the players brought in were on Colangelo's watch. He also had control over who coached the team. If you listen or read any interview with a GM he always says everything starts with the GM and works its way down. They are the ones accountable to the owner and fans for everything from coaches, to players, to training staff, to budget concerns, everything. It seems pretty petty for fans to lay the blame on BC when things are going bad but to not give him any credit for the success that he has had. Do not forget, and this may speak more to the Raps as a franchise than BC as a GM, but the overall time frame he has been here has been the most continued success in the franchise.

I 100% agree that past results do not guarantee future success. But then you have so many people saying DeMar, Amir, ED, JJ, etc. are the future but do not acknowledge BC was the one who brought them here. The team and roster is starting to be built properly and I would like to see BC finish what he has started. This franchise is in very good position.

[mcHAPPY]

I definitely do, but those 3 years had Bosh in Raps uniform in all 3 of those years and Mitchell as head coach in 2 of them. If you are referring to last year as succesful I would argue that BC's expectations were alot higher than 40-42 with a roster he thought should win 50 games that year.

I know the impression is that it has been a total rebuild but a "total" rebuild would most likely see the whole roster revamped and there are still key holdovers (Bargnani, Calderon) still present on the roster. The worst is over in some peoples opinions but when you gauge the young talent level of this team there might be a few more years of "worst" left to come before the team gets better.

And Bosh left without offering the Raptors any opportunity to get anything of value in return. He would not sign an extension with any team he was traded to and he said a bunch of things that obviously led people to think he would re-sign (i.e. wanted the most money possible, wanted to be the man, etc.). The Raps were very successful until Bosh quit after the ASG and a whole host of issues arose that took the team from 5th to losing the playoffs on the final day. This is an old story though and the reality is the best thing that ever happened to the Raps was Bosh leaving. Imagine trying to compete with him on a max contract. There is no doubt it would have been much better to get a Denver-style deal but a big reason they got what they did was watching the plight of CLE and TOR. This is all old news though, again.

There was no doubt BC's expectations were a lot high and it is a shame players quit or never tried to begin with. At the end of the day though, it is on BC for the failures as he is the GM. However luck is just as much a part of being a GM than knowledge or skills i.e. what if Turk wasn't a sack of sh!t, what if Bosh didn't break his face/twist his ankle/quit on the team, what if the team actually had a leader that brought together the divisive nature of the locker room, etc.

A total rebuild is underway. A total rebuild does not mean moving EVERY player. You are definitely correct about Calderon and Bargnani. They are big parts of the team and one or both have to go. They are the last remaining pieces to the BC stereotype of when he came to TOR which is what I mentioned earlier with all the trades/draft picks that have been made of late (athleticism, defense and rebounding or any combination of those are common traits of the players he has brought in of late). Given Calderon was for all intents and purposes traded, I do not doubt if the right trade came along either or both of those players would be gone.

The Raps do not have any franchise talent. This is too bad. The young guys could develop in to solid starters or even an All-Star but no one screams FRANCHISE. However when the team's anchors are the 9th and 13th draft picks in the last two drafts, there has been little chance to get one of the top talents of recent years. As luck would have it, the first high draft pick in 5 years is also in a draft with no consensus #1 and no player that screams FRANCHISE.

I guess the difference between myself and many people who doubt BC is I do believe he can re-create the quick turnarounds he has previously had in PHX and TOR. He is a good judge of talent in the draft, has no fear of making a large deal if he thinks it can help his team, and has a history of making deals that make the most of the restrictions in the CBA.

[RaptorsFan4Life]

You just pwned Raptors4life. And i was trying to tell people too that BC is a good GM. You can't call a guy who made phoenix a 62 win team a scrub. If we don't re sign this guy its going to take way more fckin longer to rebuild.

That wasn't me that was Raptors4Ever.

[planetmars]

I think BC needs to stay, and we need to see what's he's like with a true rebuild. Firing a GM after he a signs a big contract does not hurt the salary cap. So if we don't see a sign that we are progressing in a year or two then he should be fired.

My only one complaint about BC really is that his contract signings are usually terrible. We all know about Jose's contract, and how much baggage it holds. But before Amir got his contract most people thought he overpaid, and could have gotten him cheaper. Bargnani is in the same boat. He overpaid for Turk, and was going to sign Bosh to a max contract. Jack got the full Mid-Level, when we probably could have gotten him cheaper. I could be wrong, but wasn't he still the Suns GM when Marcus Banks got his big contract?

BC's biggest asset is that he can find a diamond in the rough and make really good trades to get these diamonds. His draft history can even be excused because he has found some nice talent amongst all the crap he's collected.

But my fear is that he will continue to overpay when contracts need to be re-signed. I just hope he solves that problem, especially with a new CBA around the corner. When Demar's rookie contract is over, what do you think he'll get? If BC is still in charge, my guess is that it will match Bargnani's contract. 5 years / $50mil.

[Raptors_]

here are the steps to fixing the raptors:

Step 1... Trade bargnani

[sleepz]

And Bosh left without offering the Raptors any opportunity to get anything of value in return. He would not sign an extension with any team he was traded to and he said a bunch of things that obviously led people to think he would re-sign (i.e. wanted the most money possible, wanted to be the man, etc.). The Raps were very successful until Bosh quit after the ASG and a whole host of issues arose that took the team from 5th to losing the playoffs on the final day. This is an old story though and the reality is the best thing that ever happened to the Raps was Bosh leaving. Imagine trying to compete with him on a max contract. There is no doubt it would have been much better to get a Denver-style deal but a big reason they got what they did was watching the plight of CLE and TOR. This is all old news though, again.

There was no doubt BC's expectations were a lot high and it is a shame players quit or never tried to begin with. At the end of the day though, it is on BC for the failures as he is the GM. However luck is just as much a part of being a GM than knowledge or skills i.e. what if Turk wasn't a sack of sh!t, what if Bosh didn't break his face/twist his ankle/quit on the team, what if the team actually had a leader that brought together the divisive nature of the locker room, etc.

A total rebuild is underway. A total rebuild does not mean moving EVERY player. You are definitely correct about Calderon and Bargnani. They are big parts of the team and one or both have to go. They are the last remaining pieces to the BC stereotype of when he came to TOR which is what I mentioned earlier with all the trades/draft picks that have been made of late (athleticism, defense and rebounding or any combination of those are common traits of the players he has brought in of late). Given Calderon was for all intents and purposes traded, I do not doubt if the right trade came along either or both of those players would be gone.

The Raps do not have any franchise talent. This is too bad. The young guys could develop in to solid starters or even an All-Star but no one screams FRANCHISE. However when the team's anchors are the 9th and 13th draft picks in the last two drafts, there has been little chance to get one of the top talents of recent years. As luck would have it, the first high draft pick in 5 years is also in a draft with no consensus #1 and no player that screams FRANCHISE.

I guess the difference between myself and many people who doubt BC is I do believe he can re-create the quick turnarounds he has previously had in PHX and TOR. He is a good judge of talent in the draft, has no fear of making a large deal if he thinks it can help his team, and has a history of making deals that make the most of the restrictions in the CBA.

To respond to a few of your points:

1) Raps always had the opportunity to get something in value for in return on Bosh. BC is the GM and has to oversee this process for the team appropriately. It's not Bosh's responsibility to ensure the Raps benefit from a trade or whatever, just like a GM doesn't ensure a traded player is accomodated, cause it's a business. Whatever Bosh said, he didn't sign an extension when it was offered and that should have been the signal for a prudent GM to explore other options or risk the chance he will elave for nothing. BC selected the risk option. You can make the Bosh quitting claims but look at his numbers after the break and they're pretty much the same. that being said for a player that is not a franchise player why are there so many expectations on him? This was s olid team Colangelo put ogether with a former #1 pick, a high priced free agent in Turks, Evans, etc. Did we need Bosh to even compete against Chicago in that home game that decided that last playoff spot. This is a team, not a 1 man gang. Good teams can fight through injuries to one player cause they have other players that step up so the whole Bohs quit nonsense and they didn't make the palyoffs doesn't fly with me. One player cannot be the resason for all the successes and all the failures.

2) What if's don't mean a whole lot. What if BC didn't fire Sam Mitchell? What if he didn't sign Turkoglu? What if he didn't draft Bargnani? What ifs can be used to explain just about anything. And I do agree that luck has much to do with things. I think the Raps were lucky that BC had huge roster turnover both years they went to the playoffs in his tenure as the coach did a tremendous job putting together so many different pieces in a short period of time and got them to gel.

3) I don't think most fans, or at least myself are looking for the quick turnaround. In fact he has a brief history of a quick turnaround here in Toronto but no long-term sustainability. I would like to see something built here. I've never seen Colangelo's long-term vision for this team becasue frankly I don't think he has ever employed one. If he's resigned perhaps we might be witness to it but I think there are many red flags that should indicate to approach with caution. For one of the highest if not the highest paid GM in the league I would expect far more in player personnel (some really good developing talent), team composition (massive redundancies on this team), coaching (solid coaching focusing on defence), and vision (gradual upswing in performance and team maturity along with team identity) than we have seen here under his tenure.

[sg60]

This is an excellent point.

I was thinking about this the other day when I heard DD and davis were who we were going to build around. Why are we building around players and not concepts like playing some defense.

There is a fairly good core of young players but You're absolutely right. Until the concept of defence becomes second nature to this team they're not going to get any better. I don't care how many points you score, you have to be able to stop people to become an elite team.

[ibzilla]

I was thinking about this the other day when I heard DD and davis were who we were going to build around. Why are we building around players and not concepts like playing some defense.

100% right. The problem with bad teams in the NBA is they try to fit a system around players that don't fit. I have league pass and watched so many NBA teams with better talent than their record due to bad coaching and system including Toronto. For example Washington has two dynamic players in transition in John Wall and Javale McGee but slow down the game reducing the effectiveness of Wall's speed. Minnesota plays the triangle with no 2 guard and Sacramento's offense is downright ugly. In Toronto, there happens to be too many one dimensional players (Demar,AB,Davis,Jose,ect ect) guys who do only one thing and aren't 2 way players. Unfortunately its very hard to build a system when your point guard can only pick and roll, your center can only shoot, your shooting guard can only score mid range jumpers and the rest of the guys can only play defense.