NBA Today - April 4th

[huskies2raps]

thanks cbowlby for posting......it was actually a pretty insightful analysis, although a few things that stood out to me:

- the Bargani + 1st Round pick for Nash and Gortat trade he suggested....yes, it is a weak draft, but I don't know if I'd be willing to give up a lottery pick for a 38 year old Nash, as good as he is at the age (he is still very good)

- he brought up the fact that Triano had to get canned based on his inability to get his guys to play motivated and play any D at all - he mentioned that Jeff Van Gundy was not a likely candidate to take the head coaching job - that sucks to hear, I always thought Van Gundy liked the city of Toronto and as a New York guy, the east coast thing would suit him well - would LOVE to see Jeff Van Gundy as head coach of the Raps

- he took another typical "American ESPN" shot at Toronto, saying that it's not an ideal destination for a lot of players....stings every time I see or hear that.....WINNING is the only thing that can solve this....i.e. OKC, San Antonio, etc..

[blackjitsu]

Well researched. I guess he gets declining attendance based on the price reduction of season tickets. I agree with most of what he says though I am hesitant about moving our coach because the precedent we have already set. If you really want a strong defensive team wouldn't moving players be more effective than moving the coach? Even if you like Bargs you have to start asking yourself if Bargs as a bench player is acceptable because with the current group of players, his lack of defense with this team almost makes that a necessity.

To build a team around Bargs (mature players who will use peer pressure and are willing to differ on the offensive end) would take much longer than building with players like Demar and Ed (though neither is a prototypical 1st option). Also, with rumors running wild about pretty much all of the top players staying in school this may be the draft to trade out of.

Bargs, a draft pick and maybe Jose for a Nash or any other mature, high level player with some tread left would definitely have a positive, though short term, impact on the Raps. Really well thought of and articulate, two comments that usually you can't use when describing US media assessing them.

And that Leo dig was sweet.

[meductic]

Bargs for Nash and Gortat would be great for the team in the short term, not so much the long term.

I am a big fan of Gortat though, he could easily be our best center in years. If this trade included their 1st round pick id do it in a second, though.

I may be wrong but I think the gist of the program was that Rap fans are being led on, and vastly over value their assets. Case in point... the suggestion was that the Suns get Bargs plus Toronto's First Round Draft pick! Immediately this gets interpreted as Nash, Gortat and maybe Phoenix's first round pick going to TO. Bargnani will not get that price or anything long term beneficially due to his contract and his well known game deficiencies, in ESPN's opinion. Any rebuild will be 2 to 4 years. Once again Enes and Jonas are sounding better... any maybe they can do their Al Jolson immitations for the few that think origin or race matter...

[mcHAPPY]

I thought the podcast was 'meh'.

If the Raptors can get some W's and solid players here, FA's will come. Money and a chance to win are essentials to luring free agents.

The Oden talk was actually insulting to me as a fan. Throw $30M at Oden and hope for the best - please.

For all his compliments to BC and the referencing to how he has turned bad move in to bad move in to bad move in to bad move in to good move (Barbosa), he doens't think he can get anything for a 20ppg scorer?

I still think the best move for TOR is Bargnani to Utah for Jefferson (see trade forum for specifics) and draft Valanciunas. While Jefferson is not the best defender, he is better than Bargnani, and his mobility is improving this year after the ACL injury. Jefferson also is good for around 10 rebounds per game. With only 2 years left on his contract and the drafting of Valanciunas, this move could shore up the Raps C spot for over a decade.

Saying Davis can't anchor a frontline is premature. DD is not a #1 option so that is fine for me but he will be a pretty damn good player nonetheless.

The PHX trade is nonsense. I would be beyond disgusted if it went down. The mere mention of it is ridiculous. Again, for all the compliments to BC do you really think he is going to be content with hopefully making the 8th seed for the next 2 years? I really hope not.

Going through the teams and saying TOR's roster is worse is a little short sighted. If you are talking franchise players, I agree. If youa re talking role players, I disagree. TOR is missing the stud or franchise player having drafted 9th and 13th in the last 2 years and of all the teams mentioned (GSW, SAC, LAC, MIN, WSH, NJ) none have had any sniff at the playoffs in years now so they have had more opportunity to get franchise player to build around. Lopez, by the way, is only averaging 5.9 rebounds per game, I do not understand how people can bash Bargnani while praise Lopez.

At the end of the day, the Raps are not going to be a playoff team next year either. However, with the young core the team has now and a little luck in the next two drafts (next year will be very strong) to hopefully get a future franchise player, the future is somewhere in the middle between what the ESPN guy and Leo think.

[Tim W.]

I haven't had a chance to listen, yet, but going on slaw's summary, here are my two cents.

Trading for Nash would be a move that would make the team mediocre in the short term, but might hurt them quite a bit in the long term. The argument that he would bring the team respectability is great, but what exactly do you do with that respectability? Is it enough to get some really good free agent? Probably not, since good free agents don't generally want to go to mediocre teams, and any free agent is going to wonder how much time Nash has. Would YOU sign a long term deal on a team with a 38 year old PG?

Gortat, on the other hand, I like. But why would Phoenix want to give him up?

Not sure why he said their cap space situation is bad. They'll have one of the lowest payrolls this summer.

I also agree Colangelo is better than his record. I think he's made some mistakes, but he's done some good things, too.

While I've defended Triano on many occasions, I can't disagree with the defensive problems. When you don't hold players accountable by sitting them, it sends a bad message. Of course, in his defense, if he sat Bargnani, would he still have a job?

I do think it will be VERY interesting to see what Bargnani would fetch in a trade. I think even among GMs you'd get incredibly varying opinions.

As for the announcers, I can't be too hard on them. They work for the Raptors and have to tow the company line if they want to keep their jobs. I think what they say in private and on the air, while representing the team are very different. Can you imagine the complaints they would get if they said what the REALLY feel? Sure, a lot of fans would find it refreshing, but after an entire season, the negativity would probably drive a lot of people away. The only announcer I have ever heard that disparaged his own team was Bill Walton. And that was the Clippers.

[Bendit]

I think this espn guy is a Phoenix Suns mole. I would wait for this summer before assessing the state of the team. It will be most important how BC handles a bunch of issues and personnel.

[minks77]

I think this espn guy is a Phoenix Suns mole. I would wait for this summer before assessing the state of the team. It will be most important how BC handles a bunch of issues and personnel.

If anything he's a Celts mole as he worked for them for a number of years, but he goes to lengths to show he's more just a ball fan and not a fan of any one team. Excpet the Lakers. He respects but doesn't like the Lakers.

Tim, you say the cap isn't that bad but Jose (10mil) Andrea (9-10) Barbosa has a player option you know he'll use (7mil) draft pick cap hold (~4mil depending how the ping pongs line up) thats about 30-31 mil for 4 players. Add in Demar, Johnson, Ed (all roughly 3 mil per) and Bayless (don't know his #) that puts the Raps at 40-43 mil per for 7 players, not one of which is a true stud. The cap is coming down too. Jose on the books for 2 more, AB for 4 it's not a great situation, not the best, not the worst but not as great or magical as Jack and Devlin were making it out to be.

As far as his comments about worst roster... well like the man said, "Ok so maybe Cleveland is worse, does it make you feel better to be 29th?" and he's right.

[Tim W.]

Tim, you say the cap isn't that bad but Jose (10mil) Andrea (9-10) Barbosa has a player option you know he'll use (7mil) draft pick cap hold (~4mil depending how the ping pongs line up) thats about 30-31 mil for 4 players. Add in Demar, Johnson, Ed (all roughly 3 mil per) and Bayless (don't know his #) that puts the Raps at 40-43 mil per for 7 players, not one of which is a true stud. The cap is coming down too. Jose on the books for 2 more, AB for 4 it's not a great situation, not the best, not the worst but not as great or magical as Jack and Devlin were making it out to be.

The Raptors will have one of the lowest payrolls in the league. If the cap goes down, it will affect everyone, but it won't change that fact. And I really have no idea if Barbosa is going to opt out or not. Probably not, but I never thought Hedo was going to opt out after having the poor year he did, and that didn't stop him. I was shocked when Richard Jefferson decided to go for long term security over a larger salary for one year, but he did.

Besides, I'm getting the feeling that Bargnani will be gone this summer, and if the Raptors get the Irving, or another top PG, it's likely Calderon is gone, too. Besides, I'm not really sure how more cap space will help the Raptors much. It's not like they're going to sign anyone worthwhile. Not coming off a 21 win season. Their TPE will be just as valuable as any cap space.

As for the roster, Detroit's may be "better" but there's no way I'd switch teams with them. Not with Villanueva and Ben Gordon sucking up so much money, as well as two more years of Richard Hamilton at $12.6 million a year. I also like Toronto's future more than Charlotte's, who have little good youth on the team, and lots of bad contracts. Golden State has three players who are vastly overpaid for several more years and I really doubt you can win with any of them starting. And the only player I'd want on that team is Stephen Curry.

Toronto isn't in a fantastic position, but they have a few nice parts. I'm fairly optimistic about their future.

[minks77]

One of the arguments put forth in the podcast is who/what are you trading Bargs for and who want to pay Jose 10 mil a year for two more years? It's a valid point as yo need 2 to tango. As for Barbs and with the CBA likely to shrink pay I don't think his situation is anything like the other players you mentioned. Especially as he'll be coming off surgery.

Detroit has Greg Monroe. He's a brighter chip than Ed Davis and they have upcoming option on Stuckey as well as Rip entering the end days of his contract and Prince. I agree about Charlie V but not Ben Gordon.

You wouldn't take Dorell Wright on this team? Steph Curry is a better player than anyone on this raps squad and David Lee at least equals Bargnani.

Hell even if you were to concede Detroit does 28th make you feel any more hopeful?

[mcHAPPY]

Another issue I forgot to mention in my rant was the idea of cap space. People continually think of cap space as only being good to sign FA's. That is true but under current CBA rules you can take on more salary via trade i.e. if you are not over the cap you do not have to worry about 125% plus 100K requirements for however much you are below the cap.

This is an extremely important and often overlooked part of having salary cap space.

[Katman]

Keep in mind as well that if there is any reduction in the cap, they will need to put in place a mechanism for teams to lower their payroll. Just like the last CBA, teams will likely get a opportunity to dump a salary (a buyout that doesn't count against the cap). Does Jose stay on the books?

[slaw]

I thought the whole thing was a waste of time as he didn't say anything that hasn't been said here a hundred time and really offered no solutions (even he acknowledged the Nash trade was not a good basketball deal). However, the starting premise that this is a bad roster and that there are no quick or easy fixes is undeniably true.

I know we are fans but as I scroll around these forums I see a lot of unwarranted optimism. Will this draft change things? Maybe in 3 years but the interim period is going to be dire. The roster has so many shortcomings and missing pieces that it is going to take years to rebuild. When I see posts about playoffs next year I just cringe because the expectations are way, way too high. The 5 spot is a gaping hole, the 3 spot is a gaping hole, the PG spot is in flux, the team has no shooters, no low post scorer, the guys don't play defense, there is a lack of elite level talent. The list goes on and on...

[mcHAPPY]

I thought the whole thing was a waste of time as he didn't say anything that hasn't been said here a hundred time and really offered no solutions (even he acknowledged the Nash trade was not a good basketball deal). However, the starting premise that this is a bad roster and that there are no quick or easy fixes is undeniably true.

I know we are fans but as I scroll around these forums I see a lot of unwarranted optimism. Will this draft change things? Maybe in 3 years but the interim period is going to be dire. The roster has so many shortcomings and missing pieces that it is going to take years to rebuild. When I see posts about playoffs next year I just cringe because the expectations are way, way too high. The 5 spot is a gaping hole, the 3 spot is a gaping hole, the PG spot is in flux, the team has no shooters, no low post scorer, the guys don't play defense, there is a lack of elite level talent. The list goes on and on...

Sadly that is what a total rebuild entails.

OKC had 2 years of 20 and 23 wins AFTER drafting Durant, Green, and Westbrook. These two years were of course preceded by two seasons of 35 and 31 wins.

I disagree on bad roster. The team has young complimentary and role players. The issue is lack of franchise or even all-star talent. I think DD and ED have all-star potential but nowhere near franchise.

[Tim W.]

One of the arguments put forth in the podcast is who/what are you trading Bargs for and who want to pay Jose 10 mil a year for two more years? It's a valid point as yo need 2 to tango. As for Barbs and with the CBA likely to shrink pay I don't think his situation is anything like the other players you mentioned. Especially as he'll be coming off surgery.

Detroit has Greg Monroe. He's a brighter chip than Ed Davis and they have upcoming option on Stuckey as well as Rip entering the end days of his contract and Prince. I agree about Charlie V but not Ben Gordon.

You wouldn't take Dorell Wright on this team? Steph Curry is a better player than anyone on this raps squad and David Lee at least equals Bargnani.

Hell even if you were to concede Detroit does 28th make you feel any more hopeful?

I've never liked the "who are you going to trade him for" argument against trading someone. There are takers for everyone. Colangelo traded Turkoglu for an arguably better player with a shorter contract. Personally, I'd try and trade Bargnani for either a young prospect or a lottery pick. As for Calderon, he was almost traded last season, and now he's coming off a very good season when he mostly remained healthy. Besides, if the Raptors don't end up drafting a PG, I see no reason to trade him. If the Raptors had a bunch of bad contracts, I can see complaining, but they don't.

As for Detroit, I like Munroe and Davis about the same. And Rip's got 2 more years after this one. And I would rather have the Raptor's roster than Cleveland's, Detroit's, Charlotte's, and Golden State's. No, not great, but I'm hopeful because COlangelo has made some excellent draft picks, some good trades and seems to have the right idea about building slowly with youth. Indiana and Utah both have better rosters, but I don't have a clue what they're doing, other than trying to build a mediocre team (although the draft picks do help Utah). New Orleans has Chris Paul, but may not even have a team soon. Phoenix's Sarver seems content to simply have a team that competes, and is a cheapskate. Memphis' owner is an evil despot who has cursed his team to never get past the first round of the playoffs. Minnesota, well, is Minnesota. And the Clippers will never be a successful team while Donald Sterling is the owner. Sure, the Raptor's roster is not great, but I look around the league and they could have a worse outlook.

[ceez]

Wow, what a dire outlook this dude has. I thought our cap space wasnt going to be that bad?