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Thread: Ken Berger Says Triano Is More Safe Than Colangelo?

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Ken Berger Says Triano Is More Safe Than Colangelo?

    Bryan Colangelo, Raptors: The Raptors' complicated ownership group has to decide whether to pick up options for Colangelo and coach Jay Triano, and the early indications are that the coach has a better chance of staying. Although ownership was on board with Colangelo's plan to deal with the aftermath of Chris Bosh's departure -- rebuild with youth and picks rather than sacrifice the future -- there's a level of disappointment that the team hasn't accomplished more at this stage of Colangelo's tenure. One source described Colangelo's future as "definitely up in the air." There's also a feeling that Triano has done his part under difficult circumstances to develop young players -- such as Jerryd Bayless, DeMar DeRozan and especially Ed Davis -- and that if someone is going to get blamed, it won't be Triano. That leaves only one other candidate.
    Source: CBS Sports

    Please, give me a break here. I see a whole lot wrong with this:

    1. I think he's basing all this on that now very old article about the accountant on the board resenting Colangelo for getting better opportunities in life. Since then there have been multiple reports that MLSE will get it done with Colangelo
    2. Jay Triano is at the end of his contract. Berger doesn't seem to know this which makes me wonder if he did any research besides clicking on a couple Google links.
    3. The prior point is more important if Colangelo isn't around because new GM's like to bring in their own coaches. With Triano's contract expired a new GM would have zero resistence in bringing a new head coach.
    4. Triano has not done a good job with the team.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    This makes me sad

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Source: CBS Sports

    Please, give me a break here. I see a whole lot wrong with this:

    1. I think he's basing all this on that now very old article about the accountant on the board resenting Colangelo for getting better opportunities in life. Since then there have been multiple reports that MLSE will get it done with Colangelo
    2. Jay Triano is at the end of his contract. Berger doesn't seem to know this which makes me wonder if he did any research besides clicking on a couple Google links.
    3. The prior point is more important if Colangelo isn't around because new GM's like to bring in their own coaches. With Triano's contract expired a new GM would have zero resistence in bringing a new head coach.
    4. Triano has not done a good job with the team.
    What you said.

    It's almost as if the players have developed IN SPITE of Triano. Others have regressed this year. What about Triano himself? Has he progressed? Does he still call timeouts during 3 on 1 breaks? Does he still call crap plays out of timeouts? Does he still use lineups and substitutions that are borderline moronic? Does he still play role players-not part of Raptors rebuild future 30+mins a night instead of playing the young guys who are possibly a large part of the team's future? Has he failed to hold players accountable for lack of defense/effort? If yes to any of the above, please exit stage left. It appears to me that perhaps only one of the ones above a possibly a no, and that is more likely because he isn't paying attention to the game enough to call a timeout.

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    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
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    Terrible article. As stated if there is a new GM Triano is gone. If BC stays a lot of us think Triano is gone.
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Apollo, I would agree that Triano hasn't done a good job with this team but you can't ignore the fact that a lot of that has to do with the guy above him. Triano didn't trade for Jermaine O'Neal and gut the roster while doing so. Triano didn't think Hassan Adams, Quincy Douby and Joey Graham were the answers to the team's perimeter struggles. Triano didn't sign Hedo Turkoglu. It wasn't Triano who was the GM when the team's best player walked away. And it wasn't Triano who drafted a jumpshooting 7'1 centre who doesn't play defense and can't rebound. Finally, Triano didn't fire Sam Mitchell for benching Bargnani and hire an inexperienced, first time head coach.

    Yeah, Triano hasn't been that great but the people above him have been worse. If you take the view that Triano has to go but Colangelo has to stay, I honestly don't know how the cognitive dissonance doesn't make your brain explode.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Source: CBS Sports

    Please, give me a break here. I see a whole lot wrong with this:

    1. I think he's basing all this on that now very old article about the accountant on the board resenting Colangelo for getting better opportunities in life. Since then there have been multiple reports that MLSE will get it done with Colangelo
    2. Jay Triano is at the end of his contract. Berger doesn't seem to know this which makes me wonder if he did any research besides clicking on a couple Google links.
    3. The prior point is more important if Colangelo isn't around because new GM's like to bring in their own coaches. With Triano's contract expired a new GM would have zero resistence in bringing a new head coach.
    4. Triano has not done a good job with the team.
    I do agree with you that I believe he's relying on that Feschuck article on Silvestri's opposition to BC being extended. Triano is at the end of hhis deal but he has a 1 yr option that they can pick up if the team wishes and he'll be back next year.

    A new GM would most likely bring in a new coach but to be honest with you Jay has been around this organization a long time and obviously has friends upstairs (Larry T.) so who knows?

    I agree that Jay hasn't done a good job coaching this team, for the last 3 years in fact, but I don't think Colangelo has either in player acquisition or having a clear vision as to where this team is going. Team identity starts with GM and acoh and the words that are used to typically describe this team (soft, no defence, jump shooting, international flavor) is reflective of the job both these men have done imo.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Oh, my criticisms about Colangelo can be found all over this place.

    Explain to me how he "gut" the roster to get Jermaine O'Neal. The only thing wrong with that deal was the draft pick. He traded a liability for a liability. It was more or less a lateral move on that level.

    Hassan Adams and Quincy Douby were end of the bench guys. They weren't regular rotation guys. Are you going to criticize him for all the insignificant guys he signed to 10 days this year who didn't turn out to be good? You think that's fair? Maybe he shouldn't waste pennies trying to find diamonds in the rough like Amir Johnson, JaMario Moon, Joey Dorsey and Sonny Weems?

    Joey Graham was already here. Colangelo got rid of him, did he not?

    Hedo didn't play for the Raptors this season. Neither did those other guys.

    Sam wasn't fired for benching Bargnani. I know you can't find anything to back that up because it was never reported.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Explain to me how he "gut" the roster to get Jermaine O'Neal. The only thing wrong with that deal was the draft pick. He traded a liability for a liability. It was more or less a lateral move on that level.

    Hassan Adams and Quincy Douby were end of the bench guys. They weren't regular rotation guys. Are you going to criticize him for all the insignificant guys he signed to 10 days this year who didn't turn out to be good? You think that's fair? Maybe he shouldn't waste pennies trying to find diamonds in the rough like Amir Johnson, JaMario Moon, Joey Dorsey and Sonny Weems?

    Joey Graham was already here. Colangelo got rid of him, did he not?

    Sam wasn't fired for benching Bargnani. I know you can't find anything to back that up because it was never reported.
    Who was Jose Calderon's backup in 08-09? Roko Ukic, Wil Solomon. The guys ahead of Douby and Adams were Moon, Parker, Kapono and Graham. That was the roster BC put together in 08-09. Why? Cause O'Neal ate up the entire cap. They had lots of needs but settled for O'Neal. I would say giving up 2 players, a pick and leaving yourself no room to maneouver qualifies as gutting the roster for one guy.

    Criticize significant moves by Colangelo? Ok, I thought I had. Turkoglu. O'Neal. Does Kapono count?

    Joey Dorsey, Sonny Weems and Jamario Moon are diamonds in the rough? Good grief. Seriously? I mean, I know all 3 are really lighting it up this year but it still seems a stretch. For future reference, Manu Ginobli, DeJuan Blair, Tony Parker are diamonds in the rough.... Dorsey, Weems and Moon are more like cubic zirconium covered in mud.

    Can I prove Mitchell's firing was related to his treatment of Bargs? No, but I can infer from the starting lineup for the Orlando series, that offseason and the immediate aftermath of the Mitchell firing. I'm sure I am not the only one to draw the inference.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Who was Jose Calderon's backup in 08-09? Roko Ukic, Wil Solomon. The guys ahead of Douby and Adams were Moon, Parker, Kapono and Graham. That was the roster BC put together in 08-09. Why? Cause O'Neal ate up the entire cap. They had lots of needs but settled for O'Neal. I would say giving up 2 players, a pick and leaving yourself no room to maneouver qualifies as gutting the roster for one guy.
    They were already capped. They would have had no more money at their disposal than exceptions anyway...

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Criticize significant moves by Colangelo? Ok, I thought I had. Turkoglu. O'Neal. Does Kapono count?
    This year? I'm not saying Colangelo didn't make mistakes. I'm saying Triano sucks as the head coach of this team and I'm not basing that on their win/loss record. You can look back to the two years I've been here posting and see hundreds of posts of me criticizing Colangelo for constructing a loser and also criticizing posters for suggesting this club could do anthing but stink this particular season. I saw them losing big before the season started. I was looking for Triano to show improvements and he didn't.

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Joey Dorsey, Sonny Weems and Jamario Moon are diamonds in the rough? Good grief. Seriously?
    Where were all three before Colangelo gave them a chance? Doing nothing. Moon never played in the league. Dorsey was struggling to get a chance to stick somewhere and Weems had one foot out the door. All three of those guys turned out to be decent end of the rotation guys. So yes, they are diamonds in the rough. Most guys outside the league never make the league, let alone stick. All three of those guys will be signing new deals when their current contracts expire.

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Can I prove Mitchell's firing was related to his treatment of Bargs? No, but I can infer from the starting lineup for the Orlando series, that offseason and the immediate aftermath of the Mitchell firing. I'm sure I am not the only one to draw the inference.
    Sam got fired when the team was a nearly a quarter of the way into the following season.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Source: CBS Sports

    Please, give me a break here. I see a whole lot wrong with this:

    1. I think he's basing all this on that now very old article about the accountant on the board resenting Colangelo for getting better opportunities in life. Since then there have been multiple reports that MLSE will get it done with Colangelo
    2. Jay Triano is at the end of his contract. Berger doesn't seem to know this which makes me wonder if he did any research besides clicking on a couple Google links.
    3. The prior point is more important if Colangelo isn't around because new GM's like to bring in their own coaches. With Triano's contract expired a new GM would have zero resistence in bringing a new head coach.
    4. Triano has not done a good job with the team.
    I agree with you on all points

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I really don't know what you guys expected Triano to do this season. He has had a team of young players and injured veterans basically all year that was projected to be last in the east. He has given minutes to our young guys without overwhelming them, and all of those players have shown a massive improvement, particularly Ed an DD, who has greatly exceeded most expectations in terms of his offensive development. I don't know if anyone else remembers this, but most of us on this forum were hoping that DD would score 15-17 a game and grad 4-6 rebounds. He is currently at 17 ppg and 3.8 rpg while shoot 47%, which I think exceeds any expectations we had for him this season. His D still needs work but I don't see how in a season where the goal was to improve our young talent, you can fault Triano when our best prospects are making the kind of strides they are.
    Could he have done better? Of course, but considering how much they are paying him and what the expectations for this season were, he has managed to keep a very young team motivated and playing hard. I would actually be content if we made no moves in the off season other than drafting a good young player and keeping Triano and BC. This is a rebuild and replacing the front office guys because we did not instantly rebound into a playoff team after losing our star is ridiculous. Let's have an offseason with limited turnover and see how well these guys play with a season together under their belts. Keep in mind that good defense is in large part accomplished by having a group of guys who have played together for a while and know how to cover for one another's styles and deficiencies. Also keep in mind that you could make Phil Jackson the coach of this squad and they still wouldn't make the playoffs.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I really don't know what you guys expected Triano to do this season. He has had a team of young players and injured veterans basically all year that was projected to be last in the east. He has given minutes to our young guys without overwhelming them, and all of those players have shown a massive improvement, particularly Ed an DD, who has greatly exceeded most expectations in terms of his offensive development. I don't know if anyone else remembers this, but most of us on this forum were hoping that DD would score 15-17 a game and grad 4-6 rebounds. He is currently at 17 ppg and 3.8 rpg while shoot 47%, which I think exceeds any expectations we had for him this season. His D still needs work but I don't see how in a season where the goal was to improve our young talent, you can fault Triano when our best prospects are making the kind of strides they are.
    Could he have done better? Of course, but considering how much they are paying him and what the expectations for this season were, he has managed to keep a very young team motivated and playing hard. I would actually be content if we made no moves in the off season other than drafting a good young player and keeping Triano and BC. This is a rebuild and replacing the front office guys because we did not instantly rebound into a playoff team after losing our star is ridiculous. Let's have an offseason with limited turnover and see how well these guys play with a season together under their belts. Keep in mind that good defense is in large part accomplished by having a group of guys who have played together for a while and know how to cover for one another's styles and deficiencies. Also keep in mind that you could make Phil Jackson the coach of this squad and they still wouldn't make the playoffs.
    Triano should be judged by the body of work, not just based on this year. What did he do last year? What did he do the year before that when Mitchell was fired because BC had higher expectations and Triano proceeded to hae the team finish up 15 games under .500?

    The talent this year sucks but this guy has had plenty of opporuntities to show his coaching abilities. I can assure you no other coach in the NBA would have another year to be the coach of this team with no playoff appearances, no winninng season and the consistent defensive performance we've seen under his tenure.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I focus on this year because it's his make or break year. Every year he's been a disappoint.

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    When I predicted 22 wins this year it had nothing to do with coaching. The team, on paper, is pure garbage and that's what I based my prediction on.

    I don't think he's a good coach, but I can't blame Triano for this season because they've been as bad as I expected. Should they renew him? I would say probably not unless it's for 2 more years (at most).

    I can't believe I'm using this terminology but I don't see how you can write a business case to convince (those who pay the bills) that this team should hire a well-known coach to coach a team that won't do anything significant for the next 2+ years. I'd say stick with Triano for now.
    Last edited by ebrian; Wed Apr 6th, 2011 at 02:18 PM.
    your pal,
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    I am feeling a bit charitable today. Mostly for JT's background I was a great supporter when he was hired and hoped much he would succeed. I do believe he was overmatched quite often the first year and I dont believe progressed greatly on some fundamental coaching decisions (having a pulse for the game and set plays in the crunch mostly). And then there is "defense". Has the team improved? Individuals have. Of course much has also to do with personnel. But I sense what most are really saying is that JT did not overachieve. Take this year eg. ...we have Flip Saunders, Skiles, Adelman....all good to very good coaches as per their history. None have done particularly well this year and except for Saunders/Wash. they have better rosters than the Raps. None have over achieved. And then you have Doug Collins who has I believe.

    That said I think its time for a change of coaches...with a better roster it will be paramount to make accountability and defense as normal dna of this club. I'd rather hire a coach who has achieved this at the nba level.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I think we don't know what a good coach looks like anymore because we've been watching Sam and Jay for nearly a decade. Jay stinks. Some guys developed, yeah. Who's to say they wouldn't have developed more if they were playing for a good coach? Maybe Bargnani would know how to box somebody out or take a charge or swoop in from the weak side?

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Triano should be judged by the body of work, not just based on this year. What did he do last year? What did he do the year before that when Mitchell was fired because BC had higher expectations and Triano proceeded to hae the team finish up 15 games under .500?

    The talent this year sucks but this guy has had plenty of opporuntities to show his coaching abilities. I can assure you no other coach in the NBA would have another year to be the coach of this team with no playoff appearances, no winninng season and the consistent defensive performance we've seen under his tenure.
    I agree he's been underwhelming as a head coach, but my argument is that what we need right now is a coach who knows how to develop young players and it seems like Jay has done an excellent job of helping to bring guys like Ed, Demar and Amir along during his time here. I think long term, you and Apollo are right, we will need someone else in order to get to the promised land, but right now we need a guy who is patient, who knows how to develop talent, and is expendable so when it is time to move to our version of Tom Thibideau, he's easy to cut loose.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    They need to learn how to execute on the floor, take over games and become leaders. Do you trust Jay to give them that guidance? They need a complete coach. I'm not asking for a hall of famer but I do expect somebody to come in, develope the young guys, run good plays, call good time outs, make good substitutions and kick some butts that need kicking. I don't know, based on Bryan's track record it's more likely that PJ or Alex is the next guy...

    ...My money is on PJ at this point...

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    They need to learn how to execute on the floor, take over games and become leaders. Do you trust Jay to give them that guidance? They need a complete coach. I'm not asking for a hall of famer but I do expect somebody to come in, develope the young guys, run good plays, call good time outs, make good substitutions and kick some butts that need kicking. I don't know, based on Bryan's track record it's more likely that PJ or Alex is the next guy...

    ...My money is on PJ at this point...
    I think Jay is as good as anyone to teach them how to execute and I don't think you can teach a guy to be a leader. Leaders tend to be born with the qualities that make them that way and no coach can impart that. I really think that PJ would do no better at this than Jay, it's not like the guy has a good record of developing young guys. I'd like to see Alex given a shot but IMO Triano is the right man for the job, at least as long as we are in this youth movement mode.
    "When Life gives you lemons, you clone those Lemons to make super lemons!"
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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I don't agree with that at all. Leaders are molded all the time in the Army for example. It's called the Officer Program..

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