Rod Black Says- "Pathetic"

[Multipaul]

Let me start this thread by saying I hate Rod Black. Hate the way he talks, hates the words that come out of his mouth, hate his face, hate his hair, just hate him.

At halftime last night, Rod described the Raptors effort as "Pathetic".

For once...I couldnt believe it..I agreed.

They then showed a clip of Landry Fields casually blowing by Demar for a nice dunk.

I endured this whole game. It was brutal.

For all those that might say our defensive liabilities lay on one player's shoulders, I say this- this problem is universal, not planetary.

The Raptors, all of them, were terrible on D last night. Ed Davis and Reg tried hard, as did DD in the 2nd half, but the game was over about 12 minutes in.

The purpose of my post is to point out our defensive issues our "macro", the entire system and the coaching staff deliviering it is flawed. We endured Triano-Iavoroni, and now Triano-PJ.

Lets all acknowledge for once and for all, that AB is not our sole defensive issue, it is the whole concept of D the Raptors try to employ.

PS- where are all the "Raptors are better without AB" posts today? Havent noticed many....funny how ppl take one game as the litmus test for a team..

[Tim W.]

No one has said that Bargnani is the sole reasons for the Raptors defensive problems, but he's obviously a main factor. Of that there can be no doubt.

And what you fail to mention is that Bargnani played the first 8 minutes, and that's when the team really seemed to lose the game. Yes, he was hurt, and you have to factor that in, but him being out there was a major reason the Knicks got the momentum they did.

As for judging the team on one game, unfortunately you seem to have done that on many occasions.

[hateslosing]

This is going to be another Tim vs. Multi thread. I can feel it...

I tend to subscribe to the belief that our team is young and they will all become better defenders in time. DD, JJ, Bayless, Amir, Ed, and even Bargs are all young and I think if you keep this roster together with limited turnover, you;ll see the team defense improve exponentially in a season or two.

[Matt52]

I had high hopes for the pairing of PJ and Triano. PJ has had success defensively everywhere he has gone before OKC and that was the start of a rebuilding process. I think everyone is accountable for this from BC and the roster he has given the coaches straight on down through the coaches for not finding success (or at the very least improvement) with what they are given and further down to the players (more than just Bargnani) for at times not seeming to care at all.

One thing I will say is, as a coach at any level your ultimate carrot is playing time. If you are not willing to take the carrot away for continual failures and lack of effort (not just Bargnani, but others as well) then you really don't have a chance to make a difference. Obviously for some players personal pride and respect is not enough. Using Bargnani as an example earlier in the year versus Detroit he was bench for an extended period and he came back like a beast - message received, at least for a short time.

[heinz57]

This is going to be another Tim vs. Multi thread. I can feel it...

like when Sammi and Ronnie broke up, and Sammi went back home... and Ronnie cried.. but then suddenly she came back, and all the drama started over again

and then Jwoww pissed behind a bar.

[sleepz]

Triano and the coaching staff definitely deserve quite a bit of blame for the defence of this team, whether it's based on schemes, no player accountability or not being able to get his players to do what is required of them.

That being said there are some 'consistents' the past 3 years. Triano is one of those consistents with Andrea and Jose being the other 2. I agree that 1 player cannot be blamed for everything that is bad defensively but Andrea plays a position that has a major influence on the defensive performance of the team. Jose does as well, don't get me wrong, but with Jose i've seen a bit more committment to trying to get better on that end of the floor and if he's getting torched they have a somehwat suitable replacement in Bayless or Barbosa.

Andrea keeps on getting fed minutes when his effort defensively is usually poor. The problem most have with him is he should be better because he has the physical tools to do so, but whether it's being unmotivated, not caring, or simply feeling he only needs to worry about his scoring his committment to being a better defender is not there. Seeing him standing in the paint as an observer at times when he's teammates are battling other players is sad.

[Multipaul]

I'm getting the sense alot of you DID NOT watch the game last night. Bargs played sparingly and then was pulled. After he was pulled, as matt devline said, triano let them play through it "cuz when you're down this bad, what does it matter, right jack". They got in a BIG hole when Bargs was OFF the floor.

And, FYI, it wasn't Bargs' job to guard the NY wings who were KILLING US last night! Melo, Billups, Douglas, etc!

Tim, i dont think you even watched the game. I watched it all, when Denver went up 15, 20, 30, Bargs was on the bench or in the locker room. No close out on Melo etc on the 3s, Fields went to town. Nothing to do with Bargs.

Weems, juju, Bayles, DD, Amir, etc., all of them DID NOT show up last night. At all. Terrible. Landry Fields was schooling DD all night.

So dont change this post to a hate AB thread. The point is that even without AB, the defense SUCKS

[AJM]

At one point in fourth quarter, Julian Wright dived on the floor to get the loose ball and he did, but could not pass it to Bayless (Raptors were down 10 points at that point). After timeout you see JW is sitting on the bench. The guy just gave you all he could and Triano put him on the bench. What kind of message are you giving to your players? that you don't care about hustle plays and D. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but that's how I feel about it.

[Multipaul]

At one point in fourth quarter, Julian Wright dived on the floor to get the loose ball and he did, but could not pass it to Bayless (Raptors were down 10 points at that point). After timeout you see JW is sitting on the bench. The guy just gave you all he could and Triano put him on the bench. What kind of message are you giving to your players? that you don't care about hustle plays and D. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but that's how I feel about it.

+1.

[Multipaul]

It was pure debauchery last night. Brutal defense, and some ...well...pathetic turnovers..i saw like 3 times where Bayless, DD, Amir, Juju, just fell over and turned the ball over, or passed RIGHT TO THE OTHER TEAM.

It's not a matter of this team is "better without Bargs", this team is just bad all around, with our without Bargs.

We need a new coach and a new mentality. An actual identity.

[GameBreaker]

I'm getting the sense alot of you DID NOT watch the game last night. Bargs played sparingly and then was pulled. After he was pulled, as matt devline said, triano let them play through it "cuz when you're down this bad, what does it matter, right jack". They got in a BIG hole when Bargs was OFF the floor.

And, FYI, it wasn't Bargs' job to guard the NY wings who were KILLING US last night! Melo, Billups, Douglas, etc!

Tim, i dont think you even watched the game. I watched it all, when Denver went up 15, 20, 30, Bargs was on the bench or in the locker room. No close out on Melo etc on the 3s, Fields went to town. Nothing to do with Bargs.

Weems, juju, Bayles, DD, Amir, etc., all of them DID NOT show up last night. At all. Terrible. Landry Fields was schooling DD all night.

So dont change this post to a hate AB thread. The point is that even without AB, the defense SUCKS

Same could be said of Landry. Look at DD's points and rebounds. Goes both ways, bro. And we played a back-to-back and DD's numbers were high, BOTH nights.

[GameBreaker]

At one point in fourth quarter, Julian Wright dived on the floor to get the loose ball and he did, but could not pass it to Bayless (Raptors were down 10 points at that point). After timeout you see JW is sitting on the bench. The guy just gave you all he could and Triano put him on the bench. What kind of message are you giving to your players? that you don't care about hustle plays and D. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but that's how I feel about it.

Co-sign.

[Multipaul]

Same could be said of Landry. Look at DD's points and rebounds. Goes both ways, bro. And we played a back-to-back and DD's numbers were high, BOTH nights.

Oh hold up, I"m not singling out DD bro. I'm just saying, last night proves we just suck, ubiquitously.

Last time at NYC bargs was in "god mode", hitting everything in site. But ...we still lost. Why? Our D sucks, with our without Bargs.

Our guys are a product of our system. Implement a new system, see better results is all I am saying.

[Arsenalist]

Anybody know what P.J Carlesimo is bringing to the team? Wasn't he supposed to be the defensive guy this year?

Eric Hughes works with DeMar on his shot, Alex English is credited with Amir Johnson's jumper, what exactly is Carlesimo bringing? I'm not saying he is the problem or even close to it, just wondering what the deal is with him.

If you look at the Raps individually, they have rotation guys like Bayless, Amir, Evans, Davis who are inherently good defenders, and they're complemented with athleticism in DeRozan, Weems and JJ, so really, we should be better than we are and certainly not dead last in the NBA for the second year running. I realize athleticism doesn't equate to defense, but it's definitely a starting point for a coach to work with.

The longer we suck defensively, the harder you have to look at Triano. Right now Sam Mitchell got more out of these guys on D than Triano.

[Deadallus]

Clearly Bargs isn't the only defensive liability of the team. But when he is supposed to be your top player/leader, and he doesn't give a s#@% about playing D, that is a terrible example to set as a leader. I think its more on Triano though. If a guy doesn't play D, bench his ass.

[Multipaul]

i agree with Arse. I believe our team has all the tools necessary to play good defense. They have lateral quicks, decent IQ (usually), and can communicate well when they try to.

And just why is PJ here? To give interviews to Jack at halftime?

[Multipaul]

Clearly Bargs isn't the only defensive liability of the team. But when he is supposed to be your top player/leader, and he doesn't give a s#@% about playing D, that is a terrible example to set as a leader. I think its more on Triano though. If a guy doesn't play D, bench his ass.

Did you watch last night? Bargs was out most of the game and we got blown out. I saw 0% effort on D by EVERYONE.

[jimmie]

If you look at the Raps individually, they have rotation guys like Bayless, Amir, Evans, Davis who are inherently good defenders, and they're complemented with athleticism in DeRozan, Weems and JJ, so really, we should be better than we are and certainly not dead last in the NBA for the second year running. I realize athleticism doesn't equate to defense, but it's definitely a starting point for a coach to work with.

The longer we suck defensively, the harder you have to look at Triano. Right now Sam Mitchell got more out of these guys on D than Triano.

Lack of defensive talent. Not the coach or the system. Triano is responsible for implementing a system; the players are responsible for executing it. This is a young, inexperienced team that is, more often than not, vastly outmatched in terms of experience and accrued NBA skills. Take it at face value -- there's no complicated or hidden reason for the defensive suckage.

Ed Davis is the ONLY "above average" defender on the roster at this point -- which is great, considering he has the least experience. For him, he's obviously been born with the defensive IQ gene. Amir is OK, improving, but still just OK. Bayless and Reggie are both bad examples. Reggie is a terrible man defender (great rebounder, though). Bayless has the physical ability, but not the execution. Similar to those others you mention (Demar, Weems, etc.).

The positive is that they're all young and inexperienced and should be expected to be very inconsistent at this point in their development. They WILL get better. The corollary to this is that a defensive system is only as strong as the SUM of its parts. Singling out bad defenders, or the system itself, is only useful if the rest of the squad are good defenders, which is not the case here.

Triano deserves respect for getting these guys to play hard all the time. Effort is not a question; just execution. In a year like this, getting consistent effort has to mean extra credit to the coaching staff, not suggestions that they should be replaced.

Seasoning is what this roster needs. And more talent.

[nubreed000]

No one has said that Bargnani is the sole reasons for the Raptors defensive problems, but he's obviously a main factor. Of that there can be no doubt.

And what you fail to mention is that Bargnani played the first 8 minutes, and that's when the team really seemed to lose the game. Yes, he was hurt, and you have to factor that in, but him being out there was a major reason the Knicks got the momentum they did.

As for judging the team on one game, unfortunately you seem to have done that on many occasions.

If Bargs wasn't 100% then why in Gods name would they put him out there? And if they wanted to test him out, why not get him to come off the bench for this one game and keep the line up they had for the past 2, which was clearly working? Would that hurt his delicate ego if he had to come off the bench? Or would Colangelo and Gherardini disapprove?

Anybody know what P.J Carlesimo is bringing to the team? Wasn't he supposed to be the defensive guy this year?

Ya, the same way Iavaroni was the defensive specialist last year LOL the comedy courtesy of BC doesn't end. Look at the Bulls. They bring in Thibodeau, the assistant who was the defensive specialist for Boston, and where are they now??

What's next for BC? Bringing in "defensive mastermind" Mike D'Antoni next year?

Same could be said of Landry. Look at DD's points and rebounds. Goes both ways, bro. And we played a back-to-back and DD's numbers were high, BOTH nights.

We did not play on a B2B.

[LeeZ]

Clearly Bargs isn't the only defensive liability of the team. But when he is supposed to be your top player/leader, and he doesn't give a s#@% about playing D, that is a terrible example to set as a leader. I think its more on Triano though. If a guy doesn't play D, bench his ass.

Exactly. I read a quote from Jay yesterday (or the day before) saying how he had done a much better job making the team accountable this year. I nearly fell out of my chair. Is he on crack? Accountability? Are you KIDDING me? As one of the previous posters pointed out, he sat Andrea for part of one game. ONE GAME. In a perfect world, Kevin O'Neil gets canned by USC for getting into that altercation a few weeks ago, and the Raps pick him up to be our defensive guru. Say what you want about him, but if you can make even VINCE play defence and hustle, then you can make ANYONE. I will never forget the first time (on KO's watch) that Vince pulled his "I've fallen and I can't get up" shtick and KO gesticulated like a mad man for Vince to get his ass up off the court and get back on dee. AND VINCE DID! Ah, the good ol' days...