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[Multipaul]

You disagree?

ADD Does ANYONE disagree with this assessment for Bargnani's Defense?

Here we go, I'm backing out now

[Multipaul]

Multipaul,

I really don't understand what you have against Amir. The majority of fans and writers said he was the Raptors MVP at the All-Star break, and the only reason they wouldn't say so now is because of DeRozan's play of late and because of Amir's injury. He's easily the team's most productive player, and helps the team on both ends of the court. And to say the guy is overpaid is ridiculous. Just looking at his PER, he's well above average, yet he's making less than the average salary.

No one denies that Bargnani is a very good offensive player, but even you have to admit he's only useful half the time he's on the court. So if he plays 36 minutes, for approximately 18 minutes he not only doesn't help the team, but hurts it. I don't know how you can realistically give him anything more than a C.

Amir may only play 26 minutes a game, but he's useful and productive for all those 26 mpg. That's why he gets a higher grade than Bargnani.

I said Amir DESERVES his grade.

[joey_hesketh]

Here we go, I'm backing out now

"Here we go"?

You can't even answer my question?

What would you rate Bargnani's Defense?

[Tim W.]

I said Amir DESERVES his grade.

But you're bashing Amir is order to show how Bargnani deserves a better grade. Most people seem to feel that Amir is a more productive player and helps the team more than Bargnani does. And these grades backs that up.

[Multipaul]

But you're bashing Amir is order to show how Bargnani deserves a better grade. Most people seem to feel that Amir is a more productive player and helps the team more than Bargnani does. And these grades backs that up.

You think Bargs deserves a C? He has been our go to guy all year, like it or not. Hasn't missed many games, still got 5.2 rebs, blocks shots, draws charges. Bad help D, pretty good man D. I think he at least deserves the same grade as Amir.

[Multipaul]

"Here we go"?

You can't even answer my question?

What would you rate Bargnani's Defense?

Defense- C (better man to man, bad help d), average rebounder, good at drawing charges and altering shots.

Offense- A- look at the stats, inside outside game, you name it

Grade- B/B-, same as Amir ,like I said.

D- on D is too harsh, sorry. That's your personal opinion, not based on fact

[Tim W.]

You think Bargs deserves a C? He has been our go to guy all year, like it or not. Hasn't missed many games, still got 5.2 rebs, blocks shots, draws charges. Bad help D, pretty good man D. I think he at least deserves the same grade as Amir.

As I said, Bargnani has been very good offensively, but poor in all other aspects. He got 5.2 rpg, which is extremely poor, he blocks some shots and draws some charges, yes, but he's still and incredibly poor help defender and below average man defender. Going by how many productive minutes each one plays, yes, I think Amir deserves a better grade than Bargnani. As I said, Amir plays 26 productive minutes per game and Bargnani about 18. I just think you're vastly underestimating how little Bargnani does outside of score.

[Multipaul]

As I said, Bargnani has been very good offensively, but poor in all other aspects. He got 5.2 rpg, which is extremely poor, he blocks some shots and draws some charges, yes, but he's still and incredibly poor help defender and below average man defender. Going by how many productive minutes each one plays, yes, I think Amir deserves a better grade than Bargnani. As I said, Amir plays 26 productive minutes per game and Bargnani about 18. I just think you're vastly underestimating how little Bargnani does outside of score.

For a center, 5.2 rpg is low, BUT, I believe his scoring is much higher than most centres. How many teams in the NBA have a C who is the leading scorer?

[Tim W.]

Defense- C (better man to man, bad help d), average rebounder, good at drawing charges and altering shots.

Offense- A- look at the stats, inside outside game, you name it

Grade- B/B-, same as Amir ,like I said.

D- on D is too harsh, sorry. That's your personal opinion, not based on fact

Sorry, but you can't argue that Bargnani is an average rebounder. He's one of the worst rebounding big men in the league.

As for his defense, he blocks a shot a game, but he's not good at altering shots. He doesn't intimidate or change shots. It's just once in a while he'll block a shot, but usually he surprises a player doing that. It's also because teams tend to challenge him, which actually makes it easier for him to block shots.

As for his man defense, it's still not good. He'll have one decent game out of 20. He consistently allows his opponent to be more productive than usual. That's the most simple way of illustrating that.

[Tim W.]

For a center, 5.2 rpg is low, BUT, I believe his scoring is much higher than most centres. How many teams in the NBA have a C who is the leading scorer?

Again, no one is denying his impact on offense. He's a very good offensive player. But it's only half the game. If a guy played excellent defense, but was as bad on offense as Bargnani is on defense, he'd get a C, too.

[Apollo]

For a center, 5.2 rpg is low, BUT, I believe his scoring is much higher than most centres. How many teams in the NBA have a C who is the leading scorer?

Bargnani is second in scoring among centers but 14th in efficiency. I can live with that because of his style of offense, it's to be expected. He takes more shots than any center in the league by the way; four more than the leading scorer at center, Dwight Howard. Bargnani is 24th in rebounding among centers and 32nd in double doubles. One of the worst defensive starting centers in the league. That 21PPG(.448 FG%) can only carry so much weight.

One thing that's underrated about his offense is his ability to get to the line. Compared to anyone but D12 he holds his own.

[Multipaul]

Again, no one is denying his impact on offense. He's a very good offensive player. But it's only half the game. If a guy played excellent defense, but was as bad on offense as Bargnani is on defense, he'd get a C, too.

There is a point to what i'm saying. They lean on him to be the lead scorer, perhaps that takes some energy away from the REBS. He is not built like D Howard, and is def not a traditional C. For a C to be scoring off drives, 3 balls, etc, is atyipcal. It is also atypical for team to make their C the #1 option unless his last name is Howard.

[Tim W.]

There is a point to what i'm saying. They lean on him to be the lead scorer, perhaps that takes some energy away from the REBS. He is not built like D Howard, and is def not a traditional C. For a C to be scoring off drives, 3 balls, etc, is atyipcal. It is also atypical for team to make their C the #1 option unless his last name is Howard.

That argument might work if Bargnani was ever a decent rebounder. He's always been bad, even when he wasn't required to score.

As for his role on offensive, I don't understand your argument. Bargnani is the #1 option because he's a good offensive player on a bad team. If a center isn't a good offensive player, you don't make him the #1 option. And when a center is good offensively, he's also had to do things like rebound and play defense. Yao Ming, Tim Duncan (if you count him as a center), Shaq, when he was younger, and then of course guys like Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson.

Bargnani being the #1 option on offense as an excuse to why his rebounding or defense isn't good is just that. An excuse. The fact is that he's NEVER been good in those areas, so trying to say they're bad now because of his role on offensive doesn't make sense. It's like saying that the reason I'm not playing in the NBA now is because I'm too old and I've got bad knees. If course, even when I was younger without the bad knees, I still wasn't in the NBA.

[Multipaul]

That argument might work if Bargnani was ever a decent rebounder. He's always been bad, even when he wasn't required to score.

As for his role on offensive, I don't understand your argument. Bargnani is the #1 option because he's a good offensive player on a bad team. If a center isn't a good offensive player, you don't make him the #1 option. And when a center is good offensively, he's also had to do things like rebound and play defense. Yao Ming, Tim Duncan (if you count him as a center), Shaq, when he was younger, and then of course guys like Hakeem, Ewing and Robinson.

Bargnani being the #1 option on offense as an excuse to why his rebounding or defense isn't good is just that. An excuse. The fact is that he's NEVER been good in those areas, so trying to say they're bad now because of his role on offensive doesn't make sense. It's like saying that the reason I'm not playing in the NBA now is because I'm too old and I've got bad knees. If course, even when I was younger without the bad knees, I still wasn't in the NBA.

no

[Raptors_]

NO, but I think if Bargs gets a C, but Barbo and Amir get B-'s, something is messed up. He is our #1 scorer and contributes alot. He should get a B or B- too. Ed should get an A. Demar deserves that B.

no he sucks. Alabi contributes more than bargnani and he doesn't even get playing time. Demar deserves a B? Demar in the last 7 games has put up 24+ point and has played great Defence. Bargnani isn't playing because they want to rest him for the trade. I doubt he has anything wrong with knee or whatever. Once this guy leaves you guys will finally shut up.

[Multipaul]

no he sucks. Alabi contributes more than bargnani and he doesn't even get playing time. Demar deserves a B? Demar in the last 7 games has put up 24+ point and has played great Defence. Bargnani isn't playing because they want to rest him for the trade. I doubt he has anything wrong with knee or whatever. Once this guy leaves you guys will finally shut up.

no

[Raptors_]

There is a point to what i'm saying. They lean on him to be the lead scorer, perhaps that takes some energy away from the REBS. He is not built like D Howard, and is def not a traditional C. For a C to be scoring off drives, 3 balls, etc, is atyipcal. It is also atypical for team to make their C the #1 option unless his last name is Howard.

We don't "lean" on him. If we wanted to we could stop giving the ball to bargnani soo much and give it to demar or someone else who can actually score efficiently. Bargnani is a chucker, he throws up shots and scores 20 points on 30 shots.

[pesterm1]

Multipaul, these grades should be based on a players personal developement IMO and not compared to how the toher players did. Bargs was put out there to be the number one guy and he did play well but not like the number one. bargs effort wasnt there all season and for anyone to say it was they are only kidding themselves. a preformance like we have been seeing from DD lately is getting a little closer to playing like a leader and a number one option(though he may never become the num.1 option). Based on this season bargs was probably expected to have a better season but due to injuries and toher variable that 3was not the case. in regaurds to barbosa, u have a guy with a messed up wrist who champed it out all season had some good games had some okay games but u could tell he played hard, always hustled, was a leader, and although it not his best season thats why he didint get a better grade. Bargs played well but not where i thought he could have been. he just needs to hustle more out there and people will stop coplaining i tihnk. when u see all the other players hustling and bargs looking like he doesnt care its easy to notice. something i noticed is the To loves hard working, blue collarplayers and bargs is not that. the other players on the roster show attributes of hustle and dedication and thats why fans love them. the Bargnani era is slowing down and next year it may pick up but if it keeps going the way it is i tihnk bags will be gone next deadline. right nwo raps are in a unique possition because by tnext year or the year following trade deadline we will have alot of nice young pieces to use as bait for getting players in trades. future looks
exciting.

[Apollo]

There is a point to what i'm saying. They lean on him to be the lead scorer, perhaps that takes some energy away from the REBS. He is not built like D Howard, and is def not a traditional C. For a C to be scoring off drives, 3 balls, etc, is atyipcal. It is also atypical for team to make their C the #1 option unless his last name is Howard.

Why doesn't it slow down Dwight Howard? Dwight is in the paint all night slugging out on offense drawing more contact than anyone else in the league, is taking four less shots per game than Bargnani but is getting to the line six more times a game. Dwight just happens to be one of the most imposing defensive forces in the league.

[Multipaul]

Multipaul, these grades should be based on a players personal developement IMO and not compared to how the toher players did. Bargs was put out there to be the number one guy and he did play well but not like the number one. bargs effort wasnt there all season and for anyone to say it was they are only kidding themselves. a preformance like we have been seeing from DD lately is getting a little closer to playing like a leader and a number one option(though he may never become the num.1 option). Based on this season bargs was probably expected to have a better season but due to injuries and toher variable that 3was not the case. in regaurds to barbosa, u have a guy with a messed up wrist who champed it out all season had some good games had some okay games but u could tell he played hard, always hustled, was a leader, and although it not his best season thats why he didint get a better grade. Bargs played well but not where i thought he could have been. he just needs to hustle more out there and people will stop coplaining i tihnk. when u see all the other players hustling and bargs looking like he doesnt care its easy to notice. something i noticed is the To loves hard working, blue collarplayers and bargs is not that. the other players on the roster show attributes of hustle and dedication and thats why fans love them. the Bargnani era is slowing down and next year it may pick up but if it keeps going the way it is i tihnk bags will be gone next deadline. right nwo raps are in a unique possition because by tnext year or the year following trade deadline we will have alot of nice young pieces to use as bait for getting players in trades. future looks
exciting.

Well, right there you validated my argument. The article wasnt based on reality, it was based on the writer's perception of each person individually, and where he though they should be. Thats like saying "Amir is not as good as Bargs, so we rate him on a lower scale,cuz we dont expect him to be as good, so he gets a B-...but Bargs, he should be rated on a higher scale cuz he's better then everyone else"