Report Cards

[Tim W.]

I watched the whole game, as I do each game. And the pre game, and the post game. It was an awesome game. Joey Dorsey was a beast, Demar looked great too. Bayless was amazing. I'm not hating on the team, but we lost, and we were missing our undeniable best player. I'm just saying if we had our best player, we would probably have won. You can't argue that one.

You're absolutely right. I agree 100%! If Amir had played I think the Raptors would have won that game.

By the way, since you're ignoring my attempts to have a real discussion, I guess this is what we're left with.

[Tim W.]

It's not a tie breaker in this case - here's the rules:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NBA_Draft_Lottery#Process
"In the event that teams finish with the same record, each tied team receives the average of the total number of combinations for the positions that they occupy."
So each team would get 137 combinations or a 13.7% chance at number one (the coin flip would be for only one extra combination, i.e. 138 total due to rounding).

That's for the lottery. If neither team moves up, then it comes down to a coin toss for who gets third, if I'm not mistaken.

[ebrian]

I've been reading a lot of posts from Multipaul and I'm just making an observation here. I'm not addressing him specifically. Personally I don't mind the guy.

I can understand often you read some of his posts and find them irritating. That's understandable because we've all arrived, after 5 years of this character (Bargnani, not the poster), to the conclusion that he's not the answer this team needs. But something inside this guy (Multipaul) is holding onto a piece of (Bargnani) and doesn't want to let go. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What I don't get is why the need to try to convince him.

5 years ago, I was all for drafting Bargnani. I was the engineer driving the Bargnani or Bust train. After year 1, I was excited and I spread the Bargnani love around. After year 2, I toned myself down a bit but after Year 3, I was excited again. Throughout this time, I had people telling me I was stupid and that Bargnani wasn't the answer due to his awful defense, inability to rebound. They would say sure, he can score but he doesn't do anything you expect a C to do. Hell I wouldn't listen.. I'd say but he can shoot 3's damnit, and that's how I'd justify it. Well, then year 4 and year 5 came and went, and I watched this team suffer and it finally dawned on me. And I have to tell you, it wasn't from guys on forums who convinced me, it was the product on the floor, or lack thereof.

So the lesson is this: Let him arrive at the destination by himself. There's no point in exhausting yourself in trying to convince him otherwise. Just let him be, and if it's too irritating, scroll up to the top right, click on Settings, and add him to your Ignore list. Then install Boomerang on your gmail, and send yourself an email that will bounce to you in 2 months, a reminder to remove him from your Ignore list. If in 2 months he's still riding the Bargnani or Bust train, add him back to the ignore list and reset that timer for another 2 months, and so on.

And you might ask what's the point of that email. Well, the point is he's obviously a very passionate Raptors fan and who doesn't love that. Yes, it's taking him longer than others to arrive at the right conclusion, but that's okay. Eventually he'll figure it out and then you'll be missing out on some really quality fanboy posts.

[Apollo]

That's for the lottery. If neither team moves up, then it comes down to a coin toss for who gets third, if I'm not mistaken.

That's a distinction I'm sure the Raptors would gladly pass on to the Wiz if it does not impact the lottery in any way. :s

[heinz57]

I've been reading a lot of posts from Multipaul and I'm just making an observation here. I'm not addressing him specifically. Personally I don't mind the guy.

I can understand often you read some of his posts and find them irritating. That's understandable because we've all arrived, after 5 years of this character (Bargnani, not the poster), to the conclusion that he's not the answer this team needs. But something inside this guy (Multipaul) is holding onto a piece of (Bargnani) and doesn't want to let go. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. What I don't get is why the need to try to convince him.

5 years ago, I was all for drafting Bargnani. I was the engineer driving the Bargnani or Bust train. After year 1, I was excited and I spread the Bargnani love around. After year 2, I toned myself down a bit but after Year 3, I was excited again. Throughout this time, I had people telling me I was stupid and that Bargnani wasn't the answer due to his awful defense, inability to rebound. They would say sure, he can score but he doesn't do anything you expect a C to do. Hell I wouldn't listen.. I'd say but he can shoot 3's damnit, and that's how I'd justify it. Well, then year 4 and year 5 came and went, and I watched this team suffer and it finally dawned on me. And I have to tell you, it wasn't from guys on forums who convinced me, it was the product on the floor, or lack thereof.

So the lesson is this: Let him arrive at the destination by himself. There's no point in exhausting yourself in trying to convince him otherwise. Just let him be, and if it's too irritating, scroll up to the top right, click on Settings, and add him to your Ignore list. Then install Boomerang on your gmail, and send yourself an email that will bounce to you in 2 months, a reminder to remove him from your Ignore list. If in 2 months he's still riding the Bargnani or Bust train, add him back to the ignore list and reset that timer for another 2 months, and so on.

And you might ask what's the point of that email. Well, the point is he's obviously a very passionate Raptors fan and who doesn't love that. Yes, it's taking him longer than others to arrive at the right conclusion, but that's okay. Eventually he'll figure it out and then you'll be missing out on some really quality fanboy posts.

well said, sir. couldn't agree more.

personally, i don't mind him.. he's entertaining... i don't usually agree with him, but i don't hate bargs either.. but i really dont begrudge people for having opinions i dont agree with. nothing good can come of it. it turns into a witch hunt.

besides, its a bloody message board... not a Player's Union CBA Meeting. some of us are actually educated.

no need to get into childish pissing matches all the time.

[Hassan]

agree with this guy especially on ed davis

[Stringer Bell]

SO, to confirm, you agree that BARBOSA should get a higher grade than Bargs? BARBOSA????

The grades are given for the current year and I believe that they are taking into account the players previous experience. We're not in a vacuum here, we were expecting certain things from Bargs.

It's easy to bash on Bargnani because he does so many things horrible. In a year where he had the chance to be a leader, the go to guy for this squad, he totally plateaued. He didn't work hard over the summer, he didn't add anything to his game. He has glaring holes that he must obviously be aware of, at least I hope. Why could he not work on these things?? Defense and rebounding can be taught to a degree that offense cannot. It's effort and perseverance.

As a raptors fan you should no longer defend Bargnani unless he is coming off of the bench for us. A player in his 5th year who looks identical to the previous 4 should not be given any credit.

I bet 50% of recently retired NBA players could have scored what he did given how often he got touches and how many minutes a game he played.

The guy deserves a D for disappointing.

[joey_hesketh]

The grades are given for the current year and I believe that they are taking into account the players previous experience. We're not in a vacuum here, we were expecting certain things from Bargs.

It's easy to bash on Bargnani because he does so many things horrible. In a year where he had the chance to be a leader, the go to guy for this squad, he totally plateaued. He didn't work hard over the summer, he didn't add anything to his game. He has glaring holes that he must obviously be aware of, at least I hope. Why could he not work on these things?? Defense and rebounding can be taught to a degree that offense cannot. It's effort and perseverance.

As a raptors fan you should no longer defend Bargnani unless he is coming off of the bench for us. A player in his 5th year who looks identical to the previous 4 should not be given any credit.

I bet 50% of recently retired NBA players could have scored what he did given how often he got touches and how many minutes a game he played.

The guy deserves a D for disappointing.

Welcome to RR Stringer!
You'll get used to Multipaul defending Bargnani. He's very good at it.

That being said, you'll find that MANY of us agree with your assessment of Andrea.

[joey_hesketh]

no need to get into childish pissing matches all the time.

Yes there is.

Want to fight about it?

[sam2525]

True. But we would lose by about 12 points each game.

Two quick points I want to raise.

One: Instead of reading things on SI and automatically accepting them why don't you try to make up your own opinions. Instead of focusing on stats like ppg and rpg go to 82games.com and check out Bargnagni's in depth stats. His defense is so terrible he actually hurts the team when he is on the court. Yes he may score points but the other team ends up scoring morewhen he is playing. Basketball is not just about scoring points...the expression is defense wins championships.

Second: I am not sure if you have ever played the game but if you had you might realize that having a defesive center is much more important than having one that can score. When was the last time a team won a championship with a center that could not play defense and averaged 5 rbs a game? What makes you think we will be able to achieve it with Bargnagni.

[black angus]

"The Raptors will finish last in defensive efficiency for the second year in a row. And without Chris Bosh or Hedo Turkoglu, they are also scoring 5.2 fewer points per 100 possessions than a year ago and will suffer a net loss of at least 17 wins. The obvious scapegoat is
Andrea Bargnani, who is not only a poor defender but also a volume shooter with below-average accuracy both inside and outside the three-point arc. Pairing him with a reluctant shooter like point guard Jose Calderon is how Toronto also ranks only 21st in offensive efficiency. The Raptors did show signs of ruggedness in the frontcourt from steadily improving rookie Ed Davis, energetic but foul-prone power forward Amir Johnson and rebounding fiend Reggie Evans, who could move on as a free agent after the season. But management needs to change the defensive culture, especially given the presence of Bargnani (who has four years and $41.5 million left on his contract) and second-year swingman DeMar DeRozan, whose dramatic development on offense ensures that he will be among the team leaders in minutes again."

Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1JM24tymK

[raptorsking]

um.. err... are we suppose to disagree here ? or are you being sarcastic.

[Tim W.]

I was going to say something about someone mentioning that SI hires smart writers, but I wouldn't stoop to that.

[RaptorFan (proud?..)]

As much as I completely agree with everyone's assessment of Bargnani.. is there ANY WAY that he could work here? If we found a legitimate center and slid him to PF (yes I remember the Jermaine O'Neil project) could we do it? The reality is this.. American players legitimately don't want to be here the same way they want to be back home. I want to be excited about DD and Ed.. I really do. But I saw the face Ed made when we took him and I know there's a big chance that Demar will be lured away to brighter lights when his time comes. But Bargnani.. for some reason that big ol' Italian likes us. He's got a long contract and we'd be able to extend him if we chose to. He could play PF in a similar fashion to say, Rashard Lewis, and we'd find a center who actually plays center.
Here in the great white north we don't find a tonne of guys with staying power

[raptorsking]

As much as I completely agree with everyone's assessment of Bargnani.. is there ANY WAY that he could work here? If we found a legitimate center and slid him to PF (yes I remember the Jermaine O'Neil project) could we do it? The reality is this.. American players legitimately don't want to be here the same way they want to be back home. I want to be excited about DD and Ed.. I really do. But I saw the face Ed made when we took him and I know there's a big chance that Demar will be lured away to brighter lights when his time comes. But Bargnani.. for some reason that big ol' Italian likes us. He's got a long contract and we'd be able to extend him if we chose to. He could play PF in a similar fashion to say, Rashard Lewis, and we'd find a center who actually plays center.
Here in the great white north we don't find a tonne of guys with staying power

finding a legit C is harder than it sounds, and the only reason bargs stays is because we are the only ones dumb enough to throw 50 mill on him.

[RaptorFan (proud?..)]

finding a legit C is harder than it sounds, and the only reason bargs stays is because we are the only ones dumb enough to throw 50 mill on him.

Fair enough. I can think of one legitimate center that will be sitting at about the same spot on the draft board as we will. Draft a Kanter, use Davis to get some serious return. .. I hate saying this. Bargnani drives me crazy! And Ed Davis is exactly the kind of guy I like. At the same time, I know I'll be watching him walk in a couple years. Colangelo seems to recognize the unique problems this market poses and I think he's really trying to address it with some Euro players who are comfortable calling this home. I could see an Ed Davis package bringing in Ricky Rubio. Ughh.. Living in Toronto makes building a basketball team a completely different monster..

[heinz57]

Yes there is.

Want to fight about it?

whenever i find myself getting into an internet argument, i also remember that the internet also hosts a plethora of free porn.

tits win over proving my points.

[madeupid25]

Nope. Read SI's brilliant article today posted by ours truly, Apollo. Reads like "Bargnani deserves his 8.5 million".

Can someone post a link for that please?

[Tim W.]

As much as I completely agree with everyone's assessment of Bargnani.. is there ANY WAY that he could work here? If we found a legitimate center and slid him to PF (yes I remember the Jermaine O'Neil project) could we do it? The reality is this.. American players legitimately don't want to be here the same way they want to be back home. I want to be excited about DD and Ed.. I really do. But I saw the face Ed made when we took him and I know there's a big chance that Demar will be lured away to brighter lights when his time comes. But Bargnani.. for some reason that big ol' Italian likes us. He's got a long contract and we'd be able to extend him if we chose to. He could play PF in a similar fashion to say, Rashard Lewis, and we'd find a center who actually plays center.
Here in the great white north we don't find a tonne of guys with staying power

If you start making personnel decisions based on whether or not you think a guy would be thrilled or not to be in Toronto, you've already failed. You've got to make your decisions based on what they do on the court. While Toronto has had some difficulty attracting top tier free agent talent, who knows whether that was because it's Toronto or because they simply have never been a great team. MOST teams have had some trouble attracting top tier free agents. If you aren't the Lakers, Boston, New York or in Florida, you're probably going to have some trouble unless you're a contender, something the Raptors have never, ever been.

The Raptors have not lost their players due to the team being in Canada. They've lost players due to various reasons that all came down to them being unhappy with the direction of the team. Give a player a good reason to stay and they most likely will.

As for Davis, I took his reaction more being annoyed at how far he fell. Considering he was projected to go 6th or 7th, he lost out on $1 million by going 13th. I'd probably be pissed too if I'd lost out on $1 million.

Now, while I'm one of the most vocal Bargnani critics, he's obviously a skilled player. Unfortunately the fact that he's a liability half the time he's on the court, makes it incredibly difficult to win with him playing a prominent roll. The comparison to Rashard Lewis is fine on the surface, but while the were both outside shooting bigs who couldn't rebound, Lewis was actually a decent help defender. His biggest weakness was defending the stronger PFs, but that's where Dwight Howard could help. You can't cover up someone being a poor help defender nearly as much.

And while Bargnani is certainly a skilled offensive player, he's not otherworldly, so jumping through hoops to try and figure out how to win with him isn't worth it. If the Raptors do get a legit center, I'd much rather have Ed Davis as the future starting PF than Bargnani. That would give you a LOT better chance of being successful.

[Tim W.]

Can someone post a link for that please?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1J1DcV4mi

It was on another thread. It's not an article about Bargnani. It simply mentions that he's worth his salary, but doesn't back it up at all. Of course that same website wrote another article bashing Bargnani's lack of defense.