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Thread: Raptors Least Efficient Team In League?

  1. #21
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    Eddie Curry...the poster child for the movement against guaranteed contracts in a cap system.
    Oh yah. I was just going from the top 30 player salary list. These are the players that make me want this too, play for pay.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How is he justifying that Bargnani is worth his money but Calderon and Barbosa aren't? Calderon has better advanced stats than Bargnani, yet makes about the same amount. Or did this guy just look at ppg?
    Agreed. None of them are worth that much.

  3. #23
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Love or hate him, it is a damn good contract in terms of what you are getting for the $$$. THink about some of the other overpaid hacks out there cough cough Baron Davis cough cough Elton Brand
    It's certainly not a "damn good" contract. He's putting up the points, but nothing else. Again, looking at his PER, he's slightly above average, in terms of production, but he's making well above average. You keep focusing on points when there are so many other aspects of the game.
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    Quote octothorp wrote: View Post
    There's a massive flaw with this type of calculation: quite often, teams that are near the bottom of standings will look to make moves mid-season that take on significant salary in the short term, in order to buy themselves salary flexibility in the long-term. In our case, that's Peja. The author never mentions him in the article, but if you subtract Peja's nearly 15 million from our payroll, we drop down to about 2.5 million per. Same story as with Minnesota and Curry (who the author does mention - makes you wonder why he explained it for Curry but didn't for Peja, when Peja actually distorts the numbers more). Point is that from our perspective, efficiency this year was sacrificed for flexibility going forward, a trade-off that every GM would make.
    Actually, I think that's kind of the point isn't it? From a pure financial standpoint, poorly managed teams, are paying out hard earned cash on contracts that produce poorly. In the case of Peja and Curry, it's even worse, they are getting nothing but 'future' cap space. In the case of those fiscally inefficient teams, they end up having to take on salary in order to dump their own problem players (e.g. Jack, Banks) and/or acquire potentially useful assets (e.g. Bayless, Juju).

    Now when Peja comes off the books, we will become more financially efficient. But history has shown that BC just cannot resist overpaying for mid-tier talent, and immediately using up whatever cap space becomes available.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    It's certainly not a "damn good" contract. He's putting up the points, but nothing else. Again, looking at his PER, he's slightly above average, in terms of production, but he's making well above average. You keep focusing on points when there are so many other aspects of the game.
    Tim, why bother? They're not going to get it. Simmons says, and I think he's right, that Bargnani gives up 2 points for every point he scores (or something to that effect). Even if the other Raps players wanted to play hard on D, Bargnani's ineptitude sabotages their efforts because he's their backstop. Bargnani is an eighth or ninth man on a winning team. Two drunk fans could run a pick and roll on Calderon and Bargnani and get two points at the basket every time.

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    Quote Brandon wrote: View Post
    Tim, why bother? They're not going to get it. Simmons says, and I think he's right, that Bargnani gives up 2 points for every point he scores (or something to that effect). Even if the other Raps players wanted to play hard on D, Bargnani's ineptitude sabotages their efforts because he's their backstop. Bargnani is an eighth or ninth man on a winning team. Two drunk fans could run a pick and roll on Calderon and Bargnani and get two points at the basket every time.
    Thanks Brandon Walsh!

    Simmons is never wrong or biased! Good call!

    PS- check out Wayne Winston's site, a real basketball guru, see what he says about Bargs!

    Say hi to Steve Sanders!

  7. #27
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    First off the only person in the world who you can find in the media who supports your stance is Winston. That should tell you a lot right there.

    Second. Simmons isn't the basketball ruler of the world and gets things wrong like anybody else. The reference to this article is difficult to form an opinion on one way or another when the article isn't actually posted here for us to see.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    First off the only person in the world who you can find in the media who supports your stance is Winston. That should tell you a lot right there.

    Second. Simmons isn't the basketball ruler of the world and gets things wrong like anybody else. The reference to this article is difficult to form an opinion on one way or another when the article isn't actually posted here for us to see.
    I can post my references:

    1. Wayne Winston: http://waynewinston.com/wordpress/?p=1047

    2. Ian Thomsen: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...#ixzz1J1DcV4mi

  9. #29
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    So many Bargnani haters.

    Bargnani will never be a rebounding, gritty center. Thats just not his game.

    Brooke lopez is also not a good a rebounder, or a good defensive player for that matter. But no one is blaming him for the Nets deficiencies.

    Clearly the raptors need defensive players to compliment bargs, if we could somehow swing a deal for ron artest, or draft a defensive sf, the raps would be looking alot better right now.

    Watch Derozan, he is one of the worst players on the raps defensively, but he continues to get praised. Everyone needs their whipping boy, but Bargnani is the player we thought he was, and is and will continue to be one the best scoring big-men in the league.

    If the raps get a center (move ab to pf), a small forward, and possibly a pointguard. We would have a good team. In doing this we would probably have to trade Amir, because he would be a redundant player in this scenario.

  10. #30
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    In a high ball movement system its much easier to find guys to supplement the offense due to a lack of scoring punch than it is to find a bunch of strong defensive players and rebounders to try and hide Bargnani's horrible defense and rebounding.

    What the die hard Bargnani supporters fail to get is that in successful franchises, the top player makes everyone else better. In poor franchises typically the top player needs a bunch of other guys to make him better.

    And I'm not saying that it's all about the one guy on good teams. No, but that one guy usually doesn't need two crutches to make him seem viable as the top player.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Rookie WBG416's Avatar
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    I agree, But ideally andrea shouldnt be our best player.

    I hate building around big men, we already tried it and it didn't work. We really need to find a good wing man, with andrea as the 2nd option.

  12. #32
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    Right. So what would be best is him coming off the bench. The only problem with that is how do you justify your $10M/yr center coming off the bench? How do you overlook the fact that his track record suggests he isn't effective at all coming off the bench? I think it's do or die time here. Either he can become a solid defensive center and rebounder or he needs to go. It's that simple. Enough with the band aids and the weak ass excuses. The guy to me has proven that he's either a 6th man or a scoring role player on a good team. That's right, a role player. Stars aren't one dimensional but role players are. That's why they're relegated to roles so they can take advantage of their one dimensional games. You know, to get the most value out of them.

    Bargnani would be best suited in a role similar to what Jason Kapono served on the Heat. They had Shaq holding it down in the paint. They had Wade making the defense scramble frantically and they had their marksman Jason Kapono out on the perimeter sniping open looks all night. Bargnani is a third option. A taller Rashard Lewis. The Raptors don't have the weapons to make use of Bargnani's eccentric skill set.

  13. #33
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Thanks Brandon Walsh!

    Simmons is never wrong or biased! Good call!

    PS- check out Wayne Winston's site, a real basketball guru, see what he says about Bargs!

    Say hi to Steve Sanders!
    So if Simmons is wrong sometimes, what makes you think Wayne Winston isn't? There's a mountain of advanced stats that backs up the claim the Bargnani is, overall, not much more than an average player in the NBA, but you keep pointing to the exception and wanting us to believe it's the rule. It's not.

    And by the way, Wayne Winston seems to have mentioned Bargnani only once, and it was in a post about adjusted +/- ratings that were inherently flawed. Unless you believe that Bargnani, Amir and Brook Lopez are better than Dwight Howard. And that Jason Terry and Kyle Lowry are better than Kobe Bryant, Manu Ginoboli and Russell Westbrook.

    You keep bringing up Wayne Winston, but keep ignoring every single other stat and expert's opinion. Why?
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  14. #34
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Wayne Winston is clearly the Andrea Bargnani of statisticians. He doesn't even publish the standard (devation) error, which is the biggest problem with adjusted +/-. A half season worth of data is rubbish using adjusted +/- methods, and this seems like more of a publicity play than serious stat work, IMO.

  15. #35
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    Quote WBG416 wrote: View Post
    So many Bargnani haters.

    Bargnani will never be a rebounding, gritty center. Thats just not his game.

    Brooke lopez is also not a good a rebounder, or a good defensive player for that matter. But no one is blaming him for the Nets deficiencies.
    They sure are. Starting with Avery Johnson not liking Lopez' lack of rebounding for a 7-footer. It's like the early days of Bargs and Smitch all over again. Just wait 'til year 5, if Lopez doesn't improve his defense. One of them will be gone, and the fans will have turned on the kid.

  16. #36
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    Quote WBG416 wrote: View Post
    Brooke lopez is also not a good a rebounder, or a good defensive player for that matter. But no one is blaming him for the Nets deficiencies.
    Actually, Lopez is a pretty decent defensive player. Not sure why you say he's not. He is a rebounding badly this year, which is why people aren't nearly as high on him this year as last year.

    Quote WBG416 wrote: View Post
    Clearly the raptors need defensive players to compliment bargs, if we could somehow swing a deal for ron artest, or draft a defensive sf, the raps would be looking alot better right now.
    Any team is better when you get better defensive player, but it's not about complimenting Bargnani. It's about trying to hide his liabilities. And while Bargnani is a very good offensive player, he's really not good enough to build an entire team around.

    Quote WBG416 wrote: View Post
    Watch Derozan, he is one of the worst players on the raps defensively, but he continues to get praised. Everyone needs their whipping boy, but Bargnani is the player we thought he was, and is and will continue to be one the best scoring big-men in the league.
    If DeRozan doesn't improve his defense over the next year or two, you can damn well bet people will be jumping on DeRozan for it. But the fact is that he's improved defensively, and, for the most part, he's somewhat adequate, at this point. He's still not good and needs to improve, but he's shown he has the ability to become a decent defender. He's already better than Bargnani.

    And yes, he continues to be one of the best scoring big men in the league who is also one of the worst defensively. Together that makes him a pretty average player, overall. Is that really something you want to build around?

    Quote WBG416 wrote: View Post
    If the raps get a center (move ab to pf), a small forward, and possibly a pointguard. We would have a good team. In doing this we would probably have to trade Amir, because he would be a redundant player in this scenario.
    If the Raptors get a center, it will be to trade Bargnani, not move him so he'll be taking time away from Ed Davis, who actually is productive on both ends of the court. Given a choice between the two, I take Davis over Bargnani every time. And I'm guessing most, if not all, teams would do the same.
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    Quote WBG416 wrote: View Post
    I agree, But ideally andrea shouldnt be our best player.

    I hate building around big men, we already tried it and it didn't work. We really need to find a good wing man, with andrea as the 2nd option.
    Don't listen to these guys WBG, they are so full of angst to Andrea for some unknown reason. They blame everything on him. Hell, they are taking one of the best statisticians in the game, Wayne Winston, and saying he is not credible cuz he likes Bargs. That's like saying "Einstein likes Bargs, so the theory of relativity is not valid anymore!"

    Keep the faith!

  18. #38
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    I am not blaming anything on him. I'm telling you this team will go no where with a one dimensional player leading the way.

  19. #39
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    Watch Derozan, he is one of the worst players on the raps defensively, but he continues to get praised. Everyone needs their whipping boy, but Bargnani is the player we thought he was, and is and will continue to be one the best scoring big-men in the league.
    I don't praise DeRozan. He can score points but can't do anything else. But DDR doesn't play the position of defensive backstop on this basketball team. He isn't the last line of defense. I agree that Bargnani is one of the best scoring big men in the league, -- he causes a lot of points to be scored on both ends of the floor.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I am not blaming anything on him. I'm telling you this team will go no where with a one dimensional player leading the way.
    Apollo, one thing I have said many times, is that Dre is our best player, BUT, i dont' think we should try and build around him as a leader or anything like that.

    That's what King Kemba is for

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