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Raptors Least Efficient Team In League?

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  • #31
    I agree, But ideally andrea shouldnt be our best player.

    I hate building around big men, we already tried it and it didn't work. We really need to find a good wing man, with andrea as the 2nd option.

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    • #32
      Right. So what would be best is him coming off the bench. The only problem with that is how do you justify your $10M/yr center coming off the bench? How do you overlook the fact that his track record suggests he isn't effective at all coming off the bench? I think it's do or die time here. Either he can become a solid defensive center and rebounder or he needs to go. It's that simple. Enough with the band aids and the weak ass excuses. The guy to me has proven that he's either a 6th man or a scoring role player on a good team. That's right, a role player. Stars aren't one dimensional but role players are. That's why they're relegated to roles so they can take advantage of their one dimensional games. You know, to get the most value out of them.

      Bargnani would be best suited in a role similar to what Jason Kapono served on the Heat. They had Shaq holding it down in the paint. They had Wade making the defense scramble frantically and they had their marksman Jason Kapono out on the perimeter sniping open looks all night. Bargnani is a third option. A taller Rashard Lewis. The Raptors don't have the weapons to make use of Bargnani's eccentric skill set.

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      • #33
        Multipaul wrote: View Post
        Thanks Brandon Walsh!

        Simmons is never wrong or biased! Good call!

        PS- check out Wayne Winston's site, a real basketball guru, see what he says about Bargs!

        Say hi to Steve Sanders!
        So if Simmons is wrong sometimes, what makes you think Wayne Winston isn't? There's a mountain of advanced stats that backs up the claim the Bargnani is, overall, not much more than an average player in the NBA, but you keep pointing to the exception and wanting us to believe it's the rule. It's not.

        And by the way, Wayne Winston seems to have mentioned Bargnani only once, and it was in a post about adjusted +/- ratings that were inherently flawed. Unless you believe that Bargnani, Amir and Brook Lopez are better than Dwight Howard. And that Jason Terry and Kyle Lowry are better than Kobe Bryant, Manu Ginoboli and Russell Westbrook.

        You keep bringing up Wayne Winston, but keep ignoring every single other stat and expert's opinion. Why?
        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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        • #34
          Multipaul wrote: View Post
          Wayne Winston is clearly the Andrea Bargnani of statisticians. He doesn't even publish the standard (devation) error, which is the biggest problem with adjusted +/-. A half season worth of data is rubbish using adjusted +/- methods, and this seems like more of a publicity play than serious stat work, IMO.

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          • #35
            WBG416 wrote: View Post
            So many Bargnani haters.

            Bargnani will never be a rebounding, gritty center. Thats just not his game.

            Brooke lopez is also not a good a rebounder, or a good defensive player for that matter. But no one is blaming him for the Nets deficiencies.
            They sure are. Starting with Avery Johnson not liking Lopez' lack of rebounding for a 7-footer. It's like the early days of Bargs and Smitch all over again. Just wait 'til year 5, if Lopez doesn't improve his defense. One of them will be gone, and the fans will have turned on the kid.

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            • #36
              WBG416 wrote: View Post
              Brooke lopez is also not a good a rebounder, or a good defensive player for that matter. But no one is blaming him for the Nets deficiencies.
              Actually, Lopez is a pretty decent defensive player. Not sure why you say he's not. He is a rebounding badly this year, which is why people aren't nearly as high on him this year as last year.

              WBG416 wrote: View Post
              Clearly the raptors need defensive players to compliment bargs, if we could somehow swing a deal for ron artest, or draft a defensive sf, the raps would be looking alot better right now.
              Any team is better when you get better defensive player, but it's not about complimenting Bargnani. It's about trying to hide his liabilities. And while Bargnani is a very good offensive player, he's really not good enough to build an entire team around.

              WBG416 wrote: View Post
              Watch Derozan, he is one of the worst players on the raps defensively, but he continues to get praised. Everyone needs their whipping boy, but Bargnani is the player we thought he was, and is and will continue to be one the best scoring big-men in the league.
              If DeRozan doesn't improve his defense over the next year or two, you can damn well bet people will be jumping on DeRozan for it. But the fact is that he's improved defensively, and, for the most part, he's somewhat adequate, at this point. He's still not good and needs to improve, but he's shown he has the ability to become a decent defender. He's already better than Bargnani.

              And yes, he continues to be one of the best scoring big men in the league who is also one of the worst defensively. Together that makes him a pretty average player, overall. Is that really something you want to build around?

              WBG416 wrote: View Post
              If the raps get a center (move ab to pf), a small forward, and possibly a pointguard. We would have a good team. In doing this we would probably have to trade Amir, because he would be a redundant player in this scenario.
              If the Raptors get a center, it will be to trade Bargnani, not move him so he'll be taking time away from Ed Davis, who actually is productive on both ends of the court. Given a choice between the two, I take Davis over Bargnani every time. And I'm guessing most, if not all, teams would do the same.
              Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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              • #37
                WBG416 wrote: View Post
                I agree, But ideally andrea shouldnt be our best player.

                I hate building around big men, we already tried it and it didn't work. We really need to find a good wing man, with andrea as the 2nd option.
                Don't listen to these guys WBG, they are so full of angst to Andrea for some unknown reason. They blame everything on him. Hell, they are taking one of the best statisticians in the game, Wayne Winston, and saying he is not credible cuz he likes Bargs. That's like saying "Einstein likes Bargs, so the theory of relativity is not valid anymore!"

                Keep the faith!

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                • #38
                  I am not blaming anything on him. I'm telling you this team will go no where with a one dimensional player leading the way.

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                  • #39
                    Watch Derozan, he is one of the worst players on the raps defensively, but he continues to get praised. Everyone needs their whipping boy, but Bargnani is the player we thought he was, and is and will continue to be one the best scoring big-men in the league.
                    I don't praise DeRozan. He can score points but can't do anything else. But DDR doesn't play the position of defensive backstop on this basketball team. He isn't the last line of defense. I agree that Bargnani is one of the best scoring big men in the league, -- he causes a lot of points to be scored on both ends of the floor.

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                    • #40
                      Apollo wrote: View Post
                      I am not blaming anything on him. I'm telling you this team will go no where with a one dimensional player leading the way.
                      Apollo, one thing I have said many times, is that Dre is our best player, BUT, i dont' think we should try and build around him as a leader or anything like that.

                      That's what King Kemba is for

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                      • #41
                        Multipaul wrote: View Post
                        Apollo, one thing I have said many times, is that Dre is our best player, BUT, i dont' think we should try and build around him as a leader or anything like that.

                        That's what King Kemba is for
                        You call Bargnani the King, yet now you want to build around a 5'9 PG whose ability to run an offense is questionable?
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                        Follow me on Twitter.

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                        • #42
                          Tim W. wrote: View Post
                          You call Bargnani the King, yet now you want to build around a 5'9 PG whose ability to run an offense is questionable?
                          Tim didn't watch the NCAA tourney at all clearly

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                          • #43
                            Tim W. wrote: View Post
                            You call Bargnani the King, yet now you want to build around a 5'9 PG whose ability to run an offense is questionable?
                            His ability to run an offense is not in question. His ability to hit jump shots consistently is in question. Dude has an amazing A/T and of all the games I watched him play this year he had no problem making his teammates better. He was an excellent distributor. People are questioning his passing ability because of the number of shots he takes. It's been well established that he takes those shots because his coach wants him to. Go watch some UCONN film. That team was extremely weak and shallow. He carried them to the finals. The guy makes everyone on the floor better.

                            I also find it funny how some people tend to shave an inch or two off a player's height when they're not high on that particular player. It doesn't further an argument.

                            Draft Express lists him as 6'0"
                            ESPN has him at 6'1"
                            NBADraft.net has him at 6'0"
                            Yahoo has him at 6'2"
                            UCONN's own website has him at 6'1"

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                            • #44
                              Apollo wrote: View Post
                              His ability to run an offense is not in question. His ability to hit jump shots consistently is in question. Dude has an amazing A/T and of all the games I watched him play this year he had no problem making his teammates better. He was an excellent distributor. People are questioning his passing ability because of the number of shots he takes. It's been well established that he takes those shots because his coach wants him to. Go watch some UCONN film. That team was extremely weak and shallow. He carried them to the finals. The guy makes everyone on the floor better.

                              I also find it funny how some people tend to shave an inch or two off a player's height when they're not high on that particular player. It doesn't further an argument.

                              Draft Express lists him as 6'0"
                              ESPN has him at 6'1"
                              NBADraft.net has him at 6'0"
                              Yahoo has him at 6'2"
                              UCONN's own website has him at 6'1"
                              Kemba was amazing to watch. Dare I say, he will be as good as D Rose

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                              • #45
                                Multipaul wrote: View Post
                                Kemba was amazing to watch. Dare I say, he will be as good as D Rose
                                You may say, indeed. Maybe not as good, but he has a chance to be real good.
                                He's the only one that will come close to that kind of Explosiveness that the likes of John Wall and DRose possess, but he's got the size and quickness of a CP3 or Ty Lawson. Kemba will be an impact player in the league. Book it.

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