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Thread: Anyone else scared that BC is backed into a 2 year corner?

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    Default Anyone else scared that BC is backed into a 2 year corner?

    I think this one's on ownership. Giving a GM like BC 2 short seasons to get your team to show solid, measurable growth is tough. Doing it while trying to climb out of the basement, without a real franchise player and without the pick to land one, while heading into a tightening financial situation, puts BC right back where he was with Bosh, only with less talent and yet another rookie coach/system/roles/required practice time. To a guy that likes to take risks and move pieces around rather than let things develop, that's a good reason to deal and hope it works out.

    Could be a crazy couple of years.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Not at all. The time to be scared was this year with an expiring contract and just losing the best player with a $14.5M TPE on the table. Measurable growth is not hard to achieve when you have a 22 win season to build on. There is a team option for year 3 so if the team is not knocking on the door of the playoffs in 2 seasons, it is debatable to keep him on for the third year and if they are there in 3 years it is time for him to go anyways.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I'm not scared at all. I'm actually a little relieved that they made a decision. It was been stalled for too long. Colangelo has mentioned he may look to hire an experienced GM to take that title. He wants another strong basketball mind in the head office. I don't know if that was an indirect hit to Maurizio but things are changing in Raptorsland. Colangelo has publicly changed his vision of what he's looking for in a team. He's back now so when need to give him the benefit of the doubt and see what he does. He's won two executive of the year awards. He knows his ball and now he's saying the right things. Over the past or so he's also been doing the right things in the draft. I've been saying for a while now it's foreshadowing of a philosophy change.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Fear is a great motivator. The cushy five year deals are long gone in this new climate. He needs to stop bringing in his friends and start approaching minds that may actually go against his thinking once in a while. I posted this before when Alex Anthopoulos went in as GM, he took the best coach possible. John Farrell went ahead and took the unusual road of not bringing in his coaches. The Jays, as young as they are, in the league's toughest division, remains competitive. I'm sick and tired of "his people" (see Maurizio Gherardini). And look at what happens when things don't work out (they stay on as "consultants" - further burdening the franchise with useless people on the payroll).

    I'm sure MG will be retained as the special assistant to the traveling secretary (see George Costanza). Get working on the Penske file Maurizio!
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Fear is a great motivator. The cushy five year deals are long gone in this new climate. He needs to stop bringing in his friends and start approaching minds that may actually go against his thinking once in a while. I posted this before when Alex Anthopoulos went in as GM, he took the best coach possible. John Farrell went ahead and took the unusual road of not bringing in his coaches. The Jays, as young as they are, in the league's toughest division, remains competitive. I'm sick and tired of "his people" (see Maurizio Gherardini). And look at what happens when things don't work out (they stay on as "consultants" - further burdening the franchise with useless people on the payroll).

    I'm sure MG will be retained as the special assistant to the traveling secretary (see George Costanza). Get working on the Penske file Maurizio!
    JT has been with the Raps since 2002; Colangelo since 2006.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Donnie Brasco's Avatar
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    I am also concerned about the BC contract situation. I am worried that BC will sabotage the rebuild in an effort to put a 40 win team back out on the court, which has little chance of reaching that 'next level'. It sucks that it has to be this way, but we are far more likely to win a title, if we win less than 30 games the next 2 years. Do you think BC can justify this as 'progress' when it comes time to pick up the option on his contract?

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    Why are people worried? Did BC sabotage the rebuild when there were only months left before the board had to decide on his contract? We've already seen once already what BC will do to get extended, didn't we? If he was so worried about short-term progress, he would have used the TPE on just about anyone before his extension, as another warm body would have been better than nothing for our win-total.

    EDIT: I see this is exactly what Matt52 said in his much less wordy first sentence. :-p

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Donnie Brasco's Avatar
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Why are people worried?
    Because of all of the poor decisions / mistakes we have seen BC make in the past.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    Did BC sabotage the rebuild when there were only months left before the board had to decide on his contract?
    No, not yet. That is not a guarantee that he won't make any questionable decisions between now and the draft.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    We've already seen once already what BC will do to get extended, didn't we? If he was so worried about short-term progress, he would have used the TPE on just about anyone before his extension, as another warm body would have been better than nothing for our win-total.
    If Colangelo thought using the TPE to acquire a veteran player, even one with an overpriced contract (Salmons , Biedrins, Iguodala type) would make it more likely that his contract would have been extended, I think he would have done it. If MLSE was intent on replacing Colangelo, the acquisition of one of those players would not likely been enough to save his job. Just because he hasn't done it yet, doesnt mean it might not still happen. We just watched a 22 win team for one season. Do you think Colangelo or MLSE would view his next 2 years as successful if they don't get back to a .500 record by 2013?
    Last edited by Donnie Brasco; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 08:46 PM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote Donnie Brasco wrote: View Post
    I am also concerned about the BC contract situation. I am worried that BC will sabotage the rebuild in an effort to put a 40 win team back out on the court, which has little chance of reaching that 'next level'. It sucks that it has to be this way, but we are far more likely to win a title, if we win less than 30 games the next 2 years. Do you think BC can justify this as 'progress' when it comes time to pick up the option on his contract?
    Nothing to be worried about, once that HARD CAP hits the league over the next few years you will see a huge change in the league. the hardcap really helped the NHL and im sure it will do the same for the NBA. just wait till the cap is lowered and teams are pretty much forced to trade their chris bosh's, josh smiths, or rudy gay's because of financial trouble. the league will balance out and the raps will be one of the many teams to profit from this change. just like the raps , the whole league will be revamped pretty soon

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    Quote Donnie Brasco wrote: View Post
    Because of all of the poor decisions / mistakes we have seen BC make in the past.



    No, not yet. That is not a guarantee that he won't make any questionable decisions between now and the draft.



    If Colangelo thought using the TPE to acquire a veteran player, even one with an overpriced contract (Salmons , Biedrins, Iguodala type) would make it more likely that his contract would have been extended, I think he would have done it. If MLSE was intent on replacing Colangelo, the acquisition of one of those players would not likely been enough to save his job. Just because he hasn't done it yet, doesnt mean it might not still happen. We just watched a 22 win team for one season. Do you think Colangelo or MLSE would view his next 2 years as successful if they don't get back to a .500 record by 2013?



    You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree. (Wordy? 5 lines, really? I think you can get Hooked on Phonics online now, check it out.)
    I guess I am of the opinion that a promising team, much like the Thunder in 2008-09, except with a better record (say, 37-ish wins), would be enough to signal a bright future? If I was on the board and BC just filled the team up with veterans so we could have the appearance of a .500 team, I don't think he'd earn much sympathy.

    But um, your last comment, I'm a bit confused. Why are you taking offense with me saying I just noticed Matt52 managed to say the same thing as me but with only one sentence? Did I offend you somehow simply by being the comment after yours?

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Donnie Brasco's Avatar
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    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    I guess I am of the opinion that a promising team, much like the Thunder in 2008-09, except with a better record (say, 37-ish wins), would be enough to signal a bright future? If I was on the board and BC just filled the team up with veterans so we could have the appearance of a .500 team, I don't think he'd earn much sympathy.
    Agreed. Although I would say that when comparing the 08 - 09 Thunder to the 11 Raps, the main difference would be that the Thunder had 2 potential superstars on the team. Hopefully the young players we draft this year and next will have good potential, and will begin to live up to it by the 13 season.

    Quote Quixotic wrote: View Post
    But um, your last comment, I'm a bit confused. Why are you taking offense with me saying I just noticed Matt52 managed to say the same thing as me but with only one sentence? Did I offend you somehow simply by being the comment after yours?
    Misunderstood. Sorry. I have edited my previous post.
    Last edited by Donnie Brasco; Sun Jun 5th, 2011 at 08:53 PM.

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    Quote Donnie Brasco wrote: View Post
    Agreed. Although I would say that when comparing the 08 - 09 Thunder to the 11 Raps, the main difference would be that the Thunder had 2 potential superstars on the team. Hopefully the young players we draft this year and next will have good potential, and will begin to live up to it by the 13 season.

    Misunderstood. Sorry. I have edited my previous post.
    Haha, I guess you thought I meant your five lines.

    Oh, I definitely realize they had 2 burgeoning elite players that season; I'm just hoping that this draft and the next we somehow pluck 1 or 2 elite players as well. We're certainly likely to draft high next season.

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    I'm pretty surprised there's so much optimism. Don't the names Jermaine O'Neal and Hedo Turkoglu ring any bells? BC's strengths are drafting athletic youth and finding good players that need a second chance for cheap. That's great for building up talent over a stretch of years while your team is in the cellar, and realistically until the Raps either find a franchise guy in the draft, trade for one, or sign one as a free agent, the team is going to struggle. And we all know the latter 2 are pretty unrealistic.

    So if this year's pick doesn't contribute much right away and internal growth is stunted by a new system, does BC start to think about trading some of that young talent for one of the many overpriced vets other teams will be looking to dump? If they finish the year with another record that gives them something like the 9th pick in next year's draft and they don't land a star, does BC take a home run swing to save his job?

    Rebuilds take time, not 2 years with an chance for a 3rd if things go to plan. With BC already talking about accelerating things, you have to be worried that he'll sacrifice long term success for a bit of short term mediocrity

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    I'm pretty surprised there's so much optimism. Don't the names Jermaine O'Neal and Hedo Turkoglu ring any bells? BC's strengths are drafting athletic youth and finding good players that need a second chance for cheap. That's great for building up talent over a stretch of years while your team is in the cellar, and realistically until the Raps either find a franchise guy in the draft, trade for one, or sign one as a free agent, the team is going to struggle. And we all know the latter 2 are pretty unrealistic.

    So if this year's pick doesn't contribute much right away and internal growth is stunted by a new system, does BC start to think about trading some of that young talent for one of the many overpriced vets other teams will be looking to dump? If they finish the year with another record that gives them something like the 9th pick in next year's draft and they don't land a star, does BC take a home run swing to save his job?

    Rebuilds take time, not 2 years with an chance for a 3rd if things go to plan. With BC already talking about accelerating things, you have to be worried that he'll sacrifice long term success for a bit of short term mediocrity
    With two solid pieces already acquired through the draft in the last 2 years, the rebuild is underway. Solid draft picks this year and next and the rebuild is complete - that is a big IF though on the drafting.

    The difference between now and O'Neal/Hedo is not trying to build around an All-Star who does not make others better and is not capable of leading.

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    One of the problems I see with a four-year rebuild is the that the first draft pick's rookie contract is up. In this case DD and maybe Ed might be fed up with the constant losing and want to bolt. I know that is something that can not be planned for, but you have to show some improvement or at least signs that things are improving. If all that is accomplished is a bunch of draft picks, players start to think of greener pastures.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Beaverboi wrote: View Post
    One of the problems I see with a four-year rebuild is the that the first draft pick's rookie contract is up. In this case DD and maybe Ed might be fed up with the constant losing and want to bolt. I know that is something that can not be planned for, but you have to show some improvement or at least signs that things are improving. If all that is accomplished is a bunch of draft picks, players start to think of greener pastures.
    Good points.

    The Raptors were in the hunt for a playoff birth DD's rookie season.

    There are 3 years before ED's rookie deal is up.

    The Raps are officially 10 months in to the tear down and build up project.

    The flip side of the argument is the guys who came to a losing franchise would want to be a part of turning the team around. Being unable to be a part of a winning team doesn't speak highly of the so-called talented players we have. I think the word I am looking for is pride.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    With two solid pieces already acquired through the draft in the last 2 years, the rebuild is underway. Solid draft picks this year and next and the rebuild is complete - that is a big IF though on the drafting.

    The difference between now and O'Neal/Hedo is not trying to build around an All-Star who does not make others better and is not capable of leading.
    So who are the Raps building around now that makes others better and is capable of leading?

    You really think that two more drafts, with this one being especially devoid of franchise-player potential, is going to give the Raps enough talent to compete? Against who?

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Nine New Faces wrote: View Post
    So who are the Raps building around now that makes others better and is capable of leading?

    You really think that two more drafts, with this one being especially devoid of franchise-player potential, is going to give the Raps enough talent to compete? Against who?
    The bolded is to be determined. DD just finished year 2, ED year 1. The draft has not even been done.

    As for the next two drafts: who are you, I or anyone else to know what these guys develop in to?

    Don't forget my reply was to this quote of your's:

    Rebuilds take time, not 2 years with an chance for a 3rd if things go to plan. With BC already talking about accelerating things, you have to be worried that he'll sacrifice long term success for a bit of short term mediocrity
    You are doing quite a bit of guessing about what is going on in BC's mind. He also has history on his side with taking a 27 win Raptors team to 2 playoff appearances and taking a 29 win PHX team to 62, 54 win seasons (the 54 with Amar'e not playing 78 games. I know, insert Hedo/O'Neal/Kapono/Bargnani here. However, there is a shift underway that has been mentioned numerous times.

    If the team stayed as is for the foreseeable future (i.e. 2-3 years) I would agree but there is also no consideration given to drafted players impact this year or next, current players developing and maturing, possible trades over the next year or two, or free agent signings this year or next.

    Rebuilds take longer than 2-3 years if the only method of change or player turnover is through the draft. Using all avenues available and some luck through the lottery, 2-3 years would be a reasonable period of time to build a foundation for a good team (not just a fringe playoff team). Year one, by my count, will be in the books at the draft for the Raptors.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Donnie Brasco's Avatar
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    The one thing I have been thinking about since reading this thread is Calderon / Bargnani / Barbossa / Evans... Those four guys combined take up about 30 million in salary. If we get lucky and we get 4 starters out of the last 2 and next 2 drafts, we will be very close to being competitive.

    As has been pointed out before, most teams have a rotation of 8 - 10 guys. If we are able to replace those veterans I mentioned with others who can provide essential qualities for a winning team (shooting, secondary scoring, rebounding, defence, leadership etc. etc. etc.) and combine them with the young players we have / will be drafting, this team could have a bright future. This is all a best case scenario (rarely happens).

    Worst case scenario, the next 2 kids we draft are complete busts, DD and ED bolt town as soon as their rookie deals are up, BC swings a trade for Rashard Lewis and Michael Redd, and the Raptors decide to bring back the pin-striped uniforms, rehire Babcock, and move back to Rogers Centre.

    I hope I am wrong about the last part lmao...
    Last edited by Donnie Brasco; Mon Jun 6th, 2011 at 04:08 PM.

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    Seems like this boils down to the fact that some people are natural optimists, and some are natural pessimists. I'm a natural pessimist. Seems like those who think the Raps are a few years away from completing the rebuild are assuming a lot; that the kids they have will develop, that the draft picks they have won't be busts, that trades will bolster the roster instead of backfiring, etc etc. I just don't have that much faith in the existing roster, in this year's draft and in the team's management.

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