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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Default Colangelo must be allowed to finish rebuild

    BC is the best and I mean the best deal maker in the NBA.
    He is not scoring full marks on how to build a team but there are indications that he is learning.

    quick review again of his key moves
    AQUIRED
    SWeems /AJohnson /DDerozen /EDavis /JJohnson /JBayless /LBarbosa/AAjinca/Evans /3rd pick 2011?/9 mill TE /Dallas 2nd round pick 2013

    (all keepers except maybe Ajinca Since the Bargs draft FAIL has been stellar with Davis Derozen)

    GONE
    Ukic /Delfino /Hedo /Peja /Printezis /Jkopono /Markus Banks/Jack /Bosh
    (I would not want any of these players including Bosh who has been exposed as a a slightly above average player who struggles to go off despite being the 3rd most attention getting guy on the floor - maybe 4th when Bibby plays - 18mill per season for that would have been a huge mistake! Bayless has identical numbers to Jack and still has upside better shooter 5 years younger cost 1/3 as much)

    BC does not walk on water:
    Jermain O'Neil for Roy Hibbert was putrid as was drafting Drafting of Bargs but no GM is perfect he has been able to "fix" his problems Fred Jones / Kapono / Hedo.

    If when interviewed by MLSE he says the following:

    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear not to draft Motiejunas Vasely or Katner
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear Bargs is moved out by this summer
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly NOT to bringing in Mike D'Antoni as head coach
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear to move Calderon and or Kleiza for anything resembling a good deal
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear to continue in new direction (NCAA proven defensive rugged players such as Bayless JJohnson)


    ...then he must be allowed to stay and finish the make over.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    BC is the best and I mean the best deal maker in the NBA.
    He is not scoring full marks on how to build a team but there are indications that he is learning.

    quick review again of his key moves
    AQUIRED
    SWeems /AJohnson /DDerozen /EDavis /JJohnson /JBayless /LBarbosa/AAjinca/Evans /3rd pick 2011?/9 mill TE /Dallas 2nd round pick 2013

    (all keepers except maybe Ajinca Since the Bargs draft FAIL has been stellar with Davis Derozen)

    GONE
    Ukic /Delfino /Hedo /Peja /Printezis /Jkopono /Markus Banks/Jack /Bosh
    (I would not want any of these players including Bosh who has been exposed as a a slightly above average player who struggles to go off despite being the 3rd most attention getting guy on the floor - maybe 4th when Bibby plays - 18mill per season for that would have been a huge mistake! Bayless has identical numbers to Jack and still has upside better shooter 5 years younger cost 1/3 as much)

    BC does not walk on water:
    Jermain O'Neil for Roy Hibbert was putrid as was drafting Drafting of Bargs but no GM is perfect he has been able to "fix" his problems Fred Jones / Kapono / Hedo.

    If when interviewed by MLSE he says the following:

    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear not to draft Motiejunas Vasely or Katner
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear Bargs is moved out by this summer
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly NOT to bringing in Mike D'Antoni as head coach
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear to move Calderon and or Kleiza for anything resembling a good deal
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear to continue in new direction (NCAA proven defensive rugged players such as Bayless JJohnson)


    ...then he must be allowed to stay and finish the make over.
    Just out of interest, what's the reason you don't want the Raptors to draft Kanter?
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Just out of interest, what's the reason you don't want the Raptors to draft Kanter?
    He wouldn't want anyone who's not from America. Kinda sounds like Don Cherry talking about basketball.
    Part of me completely agrees.. If I believed these American kids wanted to be here I'd be all on board. I guess we just need to build a winner with some Americans and see if they're willing to stay

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorFan (proud?..) wrote: View Post
    He wouldn't want anyone who's not from America. Kinda sounds like Don Cherry talking about basketball.
    Part of me completely agrees.. If I believed these American kids wanted to be here I'd be all on board. I guess we just need to build a winner with some Americans and see if they're willing to stay
    Also on the off chance that you do screw up a draft pick if you draft a similar player (soft European perimiterish big man) the fan base will be outraged. There are plenty of comparable pieces and alternatives to building.
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Also on the off chance that you do screw up a draft pick if you draft a similar player (soft European perimiterish big man) the fan base will be outraged. There are plenty of comparable pieces and alternatives to building.
    How on earth is Kanter similar to Bargnani? Have you ever watched the guy play? Hell, have you even read his scouting report? He's a bruising big man who bullies his way around the paint, but he just happens to be able to shoot from more than ten feet. Anyone who knows even a limited amount about Kanter knows he would never, ever be classified as soft.

    Really, the whole he's European so he must be soft argument is getting really old and it's pretty stupid.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How on earth is Kanter similar to Bargnani?
    Based on past Charlz threads I'll go out on a limb and say they're both not African American.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How on earth is Kanter similar to Bargnani? Have you ever watched the guy play? Hell, have you even read his scouting report? He's a bruising big man who bullies his way around the paint, but he just happens to be able to shoot from more than ten feet. Anyone who knows even a limited amount about Kanter knows he would never, ever be classified as soft.

    Really, the whole he's European so he must be soft argument is getting really old and it's pretty stupid.
    Yes he bullies his way around the pain in Europe NOT NCAA big difference. at best I think he is Zaza.

    Name me 3 hard nosed non-perimeter Euro bigs in the history of the NBA? Nenad Krstic (groan), Gortat (meh) Zaza Pechulia? vladi Divak? Rik Smits? Andris Biedrins? Even Gasol is likely the best of the bunch is moved to PF every chance they get to have Bynum play the Centers - he has been criticized in numerous circle for not being tough around the rim.

    The other intangible is for team unity the young guns don't roll with Euro dudes. when they show Ed Davis walking to his Rover he is with Reggie Demar Sonny - when they show Amir Johnson chilling in Vegas during summer league do you think Bargs is "HIS BOY" and rolling with him NO! its Jarret Jack.

    Bargs is back in Italy enjoying his celeb shot ads with models and not working on becoming a better defender.

    If you want your core pieces to stay your chances increase if they can identify with each other and share culture. Ed Davis watches how Bargs helps on D and is astounded how he doesn't care. Anyone who goes to games (and I go to nuff) can see the dynamic between the players from the tunnel to timeouts to warm ups to in game play.
    Last edited by charlz; Wed Apr 13th, 2011 at 09:13 AM.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How on earth is Kanter similar to Bargnani? Have you ever watched the guy play? Hell, have you even read his scouting report? He's a bruising big man who bullies his way around the paint, but he just happens to be able to shoot from more than ten feet. Anyone who knows even a limited amount about Kanter knows he would never, ever be classified as soft.

    Really, the whole he's European so he must be soft argument is getting really old and it's pretty stupid.
    Tim, have you seen Kanter play? Outside of his play at the Hoops Summitt last year there is limited data on Kanter since he couldn't enrol at Kentucky. He was a 'bully' against teenagers when he has played in North American prospect games so the jury is still out on him at this time. Furthermore his knees are apparently questionable and as a student coach at Kentucky will he have developed his game after being inactive for a year?

    I agree the European bias is silly, but it's not so silly in this instance considering he's a foreign big with limited experience (think of recent examples like Splitter and Vasquez who have struggled or haven't even reached the NBA yet), questionable knees and no one knows if the inactivity has affected him.

    All that being said if Barnes doesn't declare, and Irving is unavailable, if he can play the 5, I might rank him a slightly better prospect for this team than D. Will.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I agree 90% with this post. The only things I would hesitate on are having a fire sale on Bargs, I think you need to at least get something decent back for him and not take on any bad contracts. I'd take a pick and a rotation player or something of that nature. The other thing is, depending on how we draft, I don't think you necessarily want to move Jose and Klieza. If we draft a 3 than you move Kleiza and if you draft a 1 you move Jose, both both of them could be really solid bench guys and I don't see any reason to push trading them unless a really good deal comes along. Kleiza in particular since we really have yet to see what he can do because of his injury.
    Everything else is spot on IMO.
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I agree 90% with this post. The only things I would hesitate on are having a fire sale on Bargs, I think you need to at least get something decent back for him and not take on any bad contracts. I'd take a pick and a rotation player or something of that nature. The other thing is, depending on how we draft, I don't think you necessarily want to move Jose and Klieza. If we draft a 3 than you move Kleiza and if you draft a 1 you move Jose, both both of them could be really solid bench guys and I don't see any reason to push trading them unless a really good deal comes along. Kleiza in particular since we really have yet to see what he can do because of his injury.
    Everything else is spot on IMO.
    agree I could stomach Calderon and even Kleiza (hell not to Bargs) but he needs to come off the bench. Bayless is draws more attention because he is better at scoring the ball and is a much better defender of starting caliber NBA PG's.
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    I don't know anything about Kanter so I can't make a judgement call, but you can't refuse to draft him if he's the best guy on the board. If Pau Gasol wanted to play for us would we say no just because he's from Spain? Heck no! Europe has nothing to do with it. You can't judge all european players because Bargs plays with 0 heart. There are tons of americans in this league who do the exact same thing Bargs does every day. You just don't hear the same excuse thrown at them so you don't associate the two.

    I agree, extend him. Show the fans and the players that you trust the people taking care of the organization. Let him finish the project he has started. He will fail or he will succeed. Same with anyone else who comes in. changing guarantees nothing except radical change. That's what we've become associate with and it hasn't work. Keep Colangelo and lets see what he can do.

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    Yeah, there have been some great European Basketball players, just like there have been some crappy American basketball players.

    We gotta stop with the prejudice fellas.

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    [B]SWeems /AJohnson /DDerozen /EDavis /JJohnson /JBayless /LBarbosa/AAjinca/Evans /3rd pick 2011?/9 mill TE /Dallas 2nd round pick 2013[/COLOR]

    (all keepers except maybe Ajinca Since the Bargs draft FAIL has been stellar with Davis Derozen)
    It's not this post in particular that I am singling out but reading this and the year-end grades from the Post and Doug Smith you would think this team is bound for glory.

    I keep reading that there are 7 or 8 guys on this team that should come back. Really? Can we all agree that you only need 8 guys to win the NBA (plus maybe a 9th to play spot minutes)? I can't remember a good team where the 10th man was integral to success. Yet, there seems to be this idea slowly forming that the Raps already have 6 or 7 of these vital spots filled. It's nonsense. If it were true the team wouldn't be 22-59.

    The only guy on the team this year who clearly exceeded expectations was Ed Davis. Derozan has improved a lot but is everyone really ready to hand over the starting 2-spot to him indefinitely? Everyone else is at best a 7th or 8th man and you only need two of those, not 6.

    I guess my point is that this idea that somehow the roster is teeming with talent and "keepers" needs to be put to rest, not just because it is flat out wrong, but because it is letting this organization off the hook, yet again, for continually serving us dog food and telling us it is filet mignon. The team is awful. The roster is awful. Most of these guys won't be here if this team ever gets good. Stop with the nonsense.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    It's not this post in particular that I am singling out but reading this and the year-end grades from the Post and Doug Smith you would think this team is bound for glory.

    I keep reading that there are 7 or 8 guys on this team that should come back. Really? Can we all agree that you only need 8 guys to win the NBA (plus maybe a 9th to play spot minutes)? I can't remember a good team where the 10th man was integral to success. Yet, there seems to be this idea slowly forming that the Raps already have 6 or 7 of these vital spots filled. It's nonsense. If it were true the team wouldn't be 22-59.

    The only guy on the team this year who clearly exceeded expectations was Ed Davis. Derozan has improved a lot but is everyone really ready to hand over the starting 2-spot to him indefinitely? Everyone else is at best a 7th or 8th man and you only need two of those, not 6.

    I guess my point is that this idea that somehow the roster is teeming with talent and "keepers" needs to be put to rest, not just because it is flat out wrong, but because it is letting this organization off the hook, yet again, for continually serving us dog food and telling us it is filet mignon. The team is awful. The roster is awful. Most of these guys won't be here if this team ever gets good. Stop with the nonsense.
    +1

    Now that was a good post. The continual 'pass' given this organization by the media is an insult to the fans that support the team.

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    +1

    Now that was a good post. The continual 'pass' given this organization by the media is an insult to the fans that support the team.
    So BC should go out and bring in another 8-9 new faces into the Mix? I disagree with this.
    You need continuity, even if alot of these guys will be coming off the bench, or not playing at all, you can't just keep bringing in a whole new team with hopes that all of them are exactly what you need going forward.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    So BC should go out and bring in another 8-9 new faces into the Mix? I disagree with this.
    You need continuity, even if alot of these guys will be coming off the bench, or not playing at all, you can't just keep bringing in a whole new team with hopes that all of them are exactly what you need going forward.
    Totally agree. Redoing the team every year doesn't work. Look at Dallas.

    Even if some of those 8 or 9 players never play, so be it. Yeah you only need 8 good players to win a ring, but 14 players of this year's roster have all had stretches where they play significant minutes. No one is claiming any of these players are untradable, but when you have good pieces you should keep em.
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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    Totally agree. Redoing the team every year doesn't work. Look at Dallas.

    Even if some of those 8 or 9 players never play, so be it. Yeah you only need 8 good players to win a ring, but 14 players of this year's roster have all had stretches where they play significant minutes. No one is claiming any of these players are untradable, but when you have good pieces you should keep em.
    Exactly. Most of the time when teams carry a 15 man Roster, its for Practice Purposes. You need the best Talent you can get playing against your guys everyday in practice. 8 or 9 might only play during the game, but basketball Players work more than 82 days a year.

    If a guy like Julian Wright ends up being our Luke Walton, so be it. If we're winning, then he won't care.
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    So BC should go out and bring in another 8-9 new faces into the Mix? I disagree with this.
    You need continuity, even if alot of these guys will be coming off the bench, or not playing at all, you can't just keep bringing in a whole new team with hopes that all of them are exactly what you need going forward.
    This criticism misses the mark but it demolishes a straw man nicely. I wasn't advocating blowing up the team every year and looking for home runs at 4 or 5 vital slots in the rotation annually. I'm a little insulted you think I am that stupid. My point was that the current meme that is developing that this team has plenty of assets to fill key positions is incorrect and can't go uncontested. Otherwise, we're left with guys like Doug Smith and Eric Smith blowing smoke up our a**es about how James Johnson is a starter in the NBA or other such nonsense like Reggie Evans would really help the front court.

    The team has a severe lack of talent, the current roster isn't the answer, and a lot of new pieces need to be accumulated. That's the point. Don't serve me Friskies on a bun and tell me it's a lobster roll. I don't think this should be controversial to anyone who has watched this team for 82 games.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The team has a severe lack of talent, the current roster isn't the answer, and a lot of new pieces need to be accumulated. That's the point. Don't serve me Friskies on a bun and tell me it's a lobster roll. I don't think this should be controversial to anyone who has watched this team for 82 games.
    That sounds like you are advocating 'Blowing up the roster'.
    But perhaps I am misinterpreting what you are saying.

    And how does having a guy average 10+ rebounds NOT help your front court?

    I personally think that if we kept Amir, Ed, Jerryd, Demar, Reggie, JJ, Andrea, Jose, etc. and all were given a full season of healthy basketball, we would win more than 23 games. I could promise you that actually. So I don't think this team is as talent-deficient as you may think. At least in my opinion.
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    It's not this post in particular that I am singling out but reading this and the year-end grades from the Post and Doug Smith you would think this team is bound for glory.

    I keep reading that there are 7 or 8 guys on this team that should come back. Really? Can we all agree that you only need 8 guys to win the NBA (plus maybe a 9th to play spot minutes)? I can't remember a good team where the 10th man was integral to success. Yet, there seems to be this idea slowly forming that the Raps already have 6 or 7 of these vital spots filled. It's nonsense. If it were true the team wouldn't be 22-59.

    The only guy on the team this year who clearly exceeded expectations was Ed Davis. Derozan has improved a lot but is everyone really ready to hand over the starting 2-spot to him indefinitely? Everyone else is at best a 7th or 8th man and you only need two of those, not 6.

    I guess my point is that this idea that somehow the roster is teeming with talent and "keepers" needs to be put to rest, not just because it is flat out wrong, but because it is letting this organization off the hook, yet again, for continually serving us dog food and telling us it is filet mignon. The team is awful. The roster is awful. Most of these guys won't be here if this team ever gets good. Stop with the nonsense.
    Agreed on ED.

    I personally am surprised by DD. He made tremendous strides this year, imo, given he was drafted as a raw project.

    Barring future development of young guys, I am in agreement on the level of talent on the team in the here and now. The Raps had starters who should be 2nd string; 2nd string who should be 3rd string; and 3rd string who would struggle to play in the league with the majority of NBA teams.

    Now with that said, I am still optimistic for the future. Barbosa, JJ, Kleiza (if he returns healthy), and Amir are all quality 2nd string players. I have faith ED and DD will continue to develop as they are currently at the top of their respective draft classes. There is a high lottery pick coming and one thing BC can do is draft - luckily he'll most likely have another next season, if he is around to use it. Finally, if a trade comes along (read: Calderon, Bargnani, or Barbosa) that makes the team better, I have no doubt those guys will be bid adieu.

    Bottom line: I'm happy with the way the re-build has begun. Unfortunately, it is a long way from complete. For those expecting OKC like results, there are enough posts from me showing the Raps are only completing year 2 of 5 as it took OKC 5 years to get to where they are today.

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