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Thread: Colangelo must be allowed to finish rebuild

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Default Colangelo must be allowed to finish rebuild

    BC is the best and I mean the best deal maker in the NBA.
    He is not scoring full marks on how to build a team but there are indications that he is learning.

    quick review again of his key moves
    AQUIRED
    SWeems /AJohnson /DDerozen /EDavis /JJohnson /JBayless /LBarbosa/AAjinca/Evans /3rd pick 2011?/9 mill TE /Dallas 2nd round pick 2013

    (all keepers except maybe Ajinca Since the Bargs draft FAIL has been stellar with Davis Derozen)

    GONE
    Ukic /Delfino /Hedo /Peja /Printezis /Jkopono /Markus Banks/Jack /Bosh
    (I would not want any of these players including Bosh who has been exposed as a a slightly above average player who struggles to go off despite being the 3rd most attention getting guy on the floor - maybe 4th when Bibby plays - 18mill per season for that would have been a huge mistake! Bayless has identical numbers to Jack and still has upside better shooter 5 years younger cost 1/3 as much)

    BC does not walk on water:
    Jermain O'Neil for Roy Hibbert was putrid as was drafting Drafting of Bargs but no GM is perfect he has been able to "fix" his problems Fred Jones / Kapono / Hedo.

    If when interviewed by MLSE he says the following:

    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear not to draft Motiejunas Vasely or Katner
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear Bargs is moved out by this summer
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly NOT to bringing in Mike D'Antoni as head coach
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear to move Calderon and or Kleiza for anything resembling a good deal
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear to continue in new direction (NCAA proven defensive rugged players such as Bayless JJohnson)


    ...then he must be allowed to stay and finish the make over.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    BC is the best and I mean the best deal maker in the NBA.
    He is not scoring full marks on how to build a team but there are indications that he is learning.

    quick review again of his key moves
    AQUIRED
    SWeems /AJohnson /DDerozen /EDavis /JJohnson /JBayless /LBarbosa/AAjinca/Evans /3rd pick 2011?/9 mill TE /Dallas 2nd round pick 2013

    (all keepers except maybe Ajinca Since the Bargs draft FAIL has been stellar with Davis Derozen)

    GONE
    Ukic /Delfino /Hedo /Peja /Printezis /Jkopono /Markus Banks/Jack /Bosh
    (I would not want any of these players including Bosh who has been exposed as a a slightly above average player who struggles to go off despite being the 3rd most attention getting guy on the floor - maybe 4th when Bibby plays - 18mill per season for that would have been a huge mistake! Bayless has identical numbers to Jack and still has upside better shooter 5 years younger cost 1/3 as much)

    BC does not walk on water:
    Jermain O'Neil for Roy Hibbert was putrid as was drafting Drafting of Bargs but no GM is perfect he has been able to "fix" his problems Fred Jones / Kapono / Hedo.

    If when interviewed by MLSE he says the following:

    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear not to draft Motiejunas Vasely or Katner
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear Bargs is moved out by this summer
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly NOT to bringing in Mike D'Antoni as head coach
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear to move Calderon and or Kleiza for anything resembling a good deal
    I Brian Colangelo do solemnly swear to continue in new direction (NCAA proven defensive rugged players such as Bayless JJohnson)


    ...then he must be allowed to stay and finish the make over.
    Just out of interest, what's the reason you don't want the Raptors to draft Kanter?
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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    I agree 90% with this post. The only things I would hesitate on are having a fire sale on Bargs, I think you need to at least get something decent back for him and not take on any bad contracts. I'd take a pick and a rotation player or something of that nature. The other thing is, depending on how we draft, I don't think you necessarily want to move Jose and Klieza. If we draft a 3 than you move Kleiza and if you draft a 1 you move Jose, both both of them could be really solid bench guys and I don't see any reason to push trading them unless a really good deal comes along. Kleiza in particular since we really have yet to see what he can do because of his injury.
    Everything else is spot on IMO.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Just out of interest, what's the reason you don't want the Raptors to draft Kanter?
    He wouldn't want anyone who's not from America. Kinda sounds like Don Cherry talking about basketball.
    Part of me completely agrees.. If I believed these American kids wanted to be here I'd be all on board. I guess we just need to build a winner with some Americans and see if they're willing to stay

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    Raptors Republic Starter albertan_10's Avatar
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    I don't know anything about Kanter so I can't make a judgement call, but you can't refuse to draft him if he's the best guy on the board. If Pau Gasol wanted to play for us would we say no just because he's from Spain? Heck no! Europe has nothing to do with it. You can't judge all european players because Bargs plays with 0 heart. There are tons of americans in this league who do the exact same thing Bargs does every day. You just don't hear the same excuse thrown at them so you don't associate the two.

    I agree, extend him. Show the fans and the players that you trust the people taking care of the organization. Let him finish the project he has started. He will fail or he will succeed. Same with anyone else who comes in. changing guarantees nothing except radical change. That's what we've become associate with and it hasn't work. Keep Colangelo and lets see what he can do.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote RaptorFan (proud?..) wrote: View Post
    He wouldn't want anyone who's not from America. Kinda sounds like Don Cherry talking about basketball.
    Part of me completely agrees.. If I believed these American kids wanted to be here I'd be all on board. I guess we just need to build a winner with some Americans and see if they're willing to stay
    Also on the off chance that you do screw up a draft pick if you draft a similar player (soft European perimiterish big man) the fan base will be outraged. There are plenty of comparable pieces and alternatives to building.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    I agree 90% with this post. The only things I would hesitate on are having a fire sale on Bargs, I think you need to at least get something decent back for him and not take on any bad contracts. I'd take a pick and a rotation player or something of that nature. The other thing is, depending on how we draft, I don't think you necessarily want to move Jose and Klieza. If we draft a 3 than you move Kleiza and if you draft a 1 you move Jose, both both of them could be really solid bench guys and I don't see any reason to push trading them unless a really good deal comes along. Kleiza in particular since we really have yet to see what he can do because of his injury.
    Everything else is spot on IMO.
    agree I could stomach Calderon and even Kleiza (hell not to Bargs) but he needs to come off the bench. Bayless is draws more attention because he is better at scoring the ball and is a much better defender of starting caliber NBA PG's.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Also on the off chance that you do screw up a draft pick if you draft a similar player (soft European perimiterish big man) the fan base will be outraged. There are plenty of comparable pieces and alternatives to building.
    How on earth is Kanter similar to Bargnani? Have you ever watched the guy play? Hell, have you even read his scouting report? He's a bruising big man who bullies his way around the paint, but he just happens to be able to shoot from more than ten feet. Anyone who knows even a limited amount about Kanter knows he would never, ever be classified as soft.

    Really, the whole he's European so he must be soft argument is getting really old and it's pretty stupid.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie webcrawler89's Avatar
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    Yeah, there have been some great European Basketball players, just like there have been some crappy American basketball players.

    We gotta stop with the prejudice fellas.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How on earth is Kanter similar to Bargnani?
    Based on past Charlz threads I'll go out on a limb and say they're both not African American.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Based on past Charlz threads I'll go out on a limb and say they're both not African American.
    The raps need more honky americans to increase the property value of the ACC & the average credit rating of the team.

    go team honky! i love racism.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How on earth is Kanter similar to Bargnani? Have you ever watched the guy play? Hell, have you even read his scouting report? He's a bruising big man who bullies his way around the paint, but he just happens to be able to shoot from more than ten feet. Anyone who knows even a limited amount about Kanter knows he would never, ever be classified as soft.

    Really, the whole he's European so he must be soft argument is getting really old and it's pretty stupid.
    Yes he bullies his way around the pain in Europe NOT NCAA big difference. at best I think he is Zaza.

    Name me 3 hard nosed non-perimeter Euro bigs in the history of the NBA? Nenad Krstic (groan), Gortat (meh) Zaza Pechulia? vladi Divak? Rik Smits? Andris Biedrins? Even Gasol is likely the best of the bunch is moved to PF every chance they get to have Bynum play the Centers - he has been criticized in numerous circle for not being tough around the rim.

    The other intangible is for team unity the young guns don't roll with Euro dudes. when they show Ed Davis walking to his Rover he is with Reggie Demar Sonny - when they show Amir Johnson chilling in Vegas during summer league do you think Bargs is "HIS BOY" and rolling with him NO! its Jarret Jack.

    Bargs is back in Italy enjoying his celeb shot ads with models and not working on becoming a better defender.

    If you want your core pieces to stay your chances increase if they can identify with each other and share culture. Ed Davis watches how Bargs helps on D and is astounded how he doesn't care. Anyone who goes to games (and I go to nuff) can see the dynamic between the players from the tunnel to timeouts to warm ups to in game play.
    Last edited by charlz; Wed Apr 13th, 2011 at 09:13 AM.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    How on earth is Kanter similar to Bargnani? Have you ever watched the guy play? Hell, have you even read his scouting report? He's a bruising big man who bullies his way around the paint, but he just happens to be able to shoot from more than ten feet. Anyone who knows even a limited amount about Kanter knows he would never, ever be classified as soft.

    Really, the whole he's European so he must be soft argument is getting really old and it's pretty stupid.
    Tim, have you seen Kanter play? Outside of his play at the Hoops Summitt last year there is limited data on Kanter since he couldn't enrol at Kentucky. He was a 'bully' against teenagers when he has played in North American prospect games so the jury is still out on him at this time. Furthermore his knees are apparently questionable and as a student coach at Kentucky will he have developed his game after being inactive for a year?

    I agree the European bias is silly, but it's not so silly in this instance considering he's a foreign big with limited experience (think of recent examples like Splitter and Vasquez who have struggled or haven't even reached the NBA yet), questionable knees and no one knows if the inactivity has affected him.

    All that being said if Barnes doesn't declare, and Irving is unavailable, if he can play the 5, I might rank him a slightly better prospect for this team than D. Will.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Name me 3 hard nosed non-perimeter Euro bigs in the history of the NBA? Nenad Krstic (groan), Gortat (meh) Zaza Pechulia? vladi Divak? Rik Smits? Andris Biedrins? Even Gasol is likely the best of the bunch is moved to PF every chance they get to have Bynum play the Centers - he has been criticized in numerous circle for not being tough around the rim.
    sabonis, rasho, marc gasol

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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Tim, have you seen Kanter play? Outside of his play at the Hoops Summitt last year there is limited data on Kanter since he couldn't enrol at Kentucky. He was a 'bully' against teenagers when he has played in North American prospect games so the jury is still out on him at this time. Furthermore his knees are apparently questionable and as a student coach at Kentucky will he have developed his game after being inactive for a year?

    I agree the European bias is silly, but it's not so silly in this instance considering he's a foreign big with limited experience (think of recent examples like Splitter and Vasquez who have struggled or haven't even reached the NBA yet), questionable knees and no one knows if the inactivity has affected him.

    All that being said if Barnes doesn't declare, and Irving is unavailable, if he can play the 5, I might rank him a slightly better prospect for this team than D. Will.
    I saw Kanter play at the Hoop Summit as well as most of some other game (I have no idea what it was), and I was quite impressed with what I saw. He's not soft by any stretch of the imagination. And, yes, he bullied a bunch of teenagers at the World Summit, but it's not as if he wasn't a teenager himself, then. The guy is just 18 years old.

    I do agree about the lack of data and time off, though. I do find that troubling. As for the knees, if they check out then that's fine. If they don't, then his stock will drop.
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    [B]SWeems /AJohnson /DDerozen /EDavis /JJohnson /JBayless /LBarbosa/AAjinca/Evans /3rd pick 2011?/9 mill TE /Dallas 2nd round pick 2013[/COLOR]

    (all keepers except maybe Ajinca Since the Bargs draft FAIL has been stellar with Davis Derozen)
    It's not this post in particular that I am singling out but reading this and the year-end grades from the Post and Doug Smith you would think this team is bound for glory.

    I keep reading that there are 7 or 8 guys on this team that should come back. Really? Can we all agree that you only need 8 guys to win the NBA (plus maybe a 9th to play spot minutes)? I can't remember a good team where the 10th man was integral to success. Yet, there seems to be this idea slowly forming that the Raps already have 6 or 7 of these vital spots filled. It's nonsense. If it were true the team wouldn't be 22-59.

    The only guy on the team this year who clearly exceeded expectations was Ed Davis. Derozan has improved a lot but is everyone really ready to hand over the starting 2-spot to him indefinitely? Everyone else is at best a 7th or 8th man and you only need two of those, not 6.

    I guess my point is that this idea that somehow the roster is teeming with talent and "keepers" needs to be put to rest, not just because it is flat out wrong, but because it is letting this organization off the hook, yet again, for continually serving us dog food and telling us it is filet mignon. The team is awful. The roster is awful. Most of these guys won't be here if this team ever gets good. Stop with the nonsense.

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    Yo Charlz, you may wanna check out this group before posting


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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    sabonis, rasho, marc gasol
    rasho a 7 footer who averaged 5 RPG? sorry that is not my idea rugged. Marc is tougher but 6'8 certainly not worth a 3rd pick.

    Sabo is a maybe I liked him 7'3 guys getting u 7 RPG is disappointing when Reggie can get you double that in the same time heck so can Dorsey... also Sabo played on great teams and was ringless - never could get it done in money games v shaq or admiral.
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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Multipaul wrote: View Post
    Yo Charlz, you may wanna check out this group before posting
    Now I feel like Harper getting his character grossly distorted by Jack Layton and Michael Ignatieff.
    I dont hate anyone or any group. Read my post closely.

    History shows top Foreign players come to NBA and look like ordinary one way players and you are hard pressed to find a championship teams that has foreign players as the go to guy. Gasol did not get ringed until they put him with kobe bynum odom fisher ariza/artest.

    For the record I think Manu is one of the grittiest guys to ever play the game. He (along with TD) is why Spurs won and he is why Argentina toppled US IMO - but he is a rare rare rare find.
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Yes he bullies his way around the pain in Europe NOT NCAA big difference. at best I think he is Zaza.

    Name me 3 hard nosed non-perimeter Euro bigs in the history of the NBA? Nenad Krstic (groan), Gortat (meh) Zaza Pechulia? vladi Divak? Rik Smits? Andris Biedrins? Even Gasol is likely the best of the bunch is moved to PF every chance they get to have Bynum play the Centers - he has been criticized in numerous circle for not being tough around the rim.

    The other intangible is for team unity the young guns don't roll with Euro dudes. when they show Ed Davis walking to his Rover he is with Reggie Demar Sonny - when they show Amir Johnson chilling in Vegas during summer league do you think Bargs is "HIS BOY" and rolling with him NO! its Jarret Jack.

    Bargs is back in Italy enjoying his celeb shot ads with models and not working on becoming a better defender.

    If you want your core pieces to stay your chances increase if they can identify with each other and share culture. Ed Davis watches how Bargs helps on D and is astounded how he doesn't care. Anyone who goes to games (and I go to nuff) can see the dynamic between the players from the tunnel to timeouts to warm ups to in game play.
    It seems the more you post about the subject of Euro vs. American (what u really mean is Afr. Am. I think) the more is displayed of your disregard for the principle that generalization of ethnicity is not a nice trait. In fact it is not a wise one.

    Regarding whether some of the Raps like to "roll" with one or the other is again wrapped into this world view which seems quite rigid. I have experienced, here in Toronto, that students going to public school in Forest Hill tend to gravitate towards groupings of similar class/financial backgrounds (Forest Hill being a diverse community with great wealth, middle and poor classes of pop.). This is natural. While I agree bonding is a good thing amongst members of pro BB team, to use this as an example of not drafting a player who might be considered the best at that draft position because he is a euro, is well, just xxxxxx. Are you aware that Jose had Bosh over to his home in Spain on a vacation one year and has been a very willing tour guide during their Euro trips? Do you call that adequate "rolling" with his mates? It might also say something about American players not being open enough to want to experience the company of their Euro teammates. It does take two to tango, right? We dont know that do we? I just go by what I read and have experienced ...that Americans are pretty ambivalent about wanting/caring to learn about other cultures except if they go to war or invade them (ok, that was uncalled for!). If Kanter did turn out to be like a Pau Gasol eg. do you think ED would care he doesnt like JayZ or Roscoe's Chicken?

    Draft the best player available.
    Last edited by Bendit; Wed Apr 13th, 2011 at 12:33 PM.

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