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Thread: Colangelo must be allowed to finish rebuild

  1. #41
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    +1

    Now that was a good post. The continual 'pass' given this organization by the media is an insult to the fans that support the team.
    So BC should go out and bring in another 8-9 new faces into the Mix? I disagree with this.
    You need continuity, even if alot of these guys will be coming off the bench, or not playing at all, you can't just keep bringing in a whole new team with hopes that all of them are exactly what you need going forward.
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    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote heinz57 wrote: View Post
    Australia is in Africa?
    South Africa actually, if my Geography is as good as I think it is.
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  3. #43
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    South Africa actually, if my Geography is as good as I think it is.
    that's where the gobots live

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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    So BC should go out and bring in another 8-9 new faces into the Mix? I disagree with this.
    You need continuity, even if alot of these guys will be coming off the bench, or not playing at all, you can't just keep bringing in a whole new team with hopes that all of them are exactly what you need going forward.
    Totally agree. Redoing the team every year doesn't work. Look at Dallas.

    Even if some of those 8 or 9 players never play, so be it. Yeah you only need 8 good players to win a ring, but 14 players of this year's roster have all had stretches where they play significant minutes. No one is claiming any of these players are untradable, but when you have good pieces you should keep em.
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  5. #45
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    Totally agree. Redoing the team every year doesn't work. Look at Dallas.

    Even if some of those 8 or 9 players never play, so be it. Yeah you only need 8 good players to win a ring, but 14 players of this year's roster have all had stretches where they play significant minutes. No one is claiming any of these players are untradable, but when you have good pieces you should keep em.
    Exactly. Most of the time when teams carry a 15 man Roster, its for Practice Purposes. You need the best Talent you can get playing against your guys everyday in practice. 8 or 9 might only play during the game, but basketball Players work more than 82 days a year.

    If a guy like Julian Wright ends up being our Luke Walton, so be it. If we're winning, then he won't care.
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  6. #46
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    He is young, but I think his game translates as a 4. I know the whole 'pick the best player available' motto but this team is 4 heavy. Unless Kanter can play the 5 he might not be a good fit for the Raps
    He's 6'10 and 250 lbs with a +7 foot reach. I'd take that over most of the players that are playing center, nowadays. Hakeem was only 6'10. So was Mourning. And Kanter may have grown an inch or so in the last year. I think he'd be a good pairing with Davis and Amir, anyway and I'm pretty sure he could defend the center position better than it's being defended now.
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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    It's not this post in particular that I am singling out but reading this and the year-end grades from the Post and Doug Smith you would think this team is bound for glory.

    I keep reading that there are 7 or 8 guys on this team that should come back. Really? Can we all agree that you only need 8 guys to win the NBA (plus maybe a 9th to play spot minutes)? I can't remember a good team where the 10th man was integral to success. Yet, there seems to be this idea slowly forming that the Raps already have 6 or 7 of these vital spots filled. It's nonsense. If it were true the team wouldn't be 22-59.

    The only guy on the team this year who clearly exceeded expectations was Ed Davis. Derozan has improved a lot but is everyone really ready to hand over the starting 2-spot to him indefinitely? Everyone else is at best a 7th or 8th man and you only need two of those, not 6.

    I guess my point is that this idea that somehow the roster is teeming with talent and "keepers" needs to be put to rest, not just because it is flat out wrong, but because it is letting this organization off the hook, yet again, for continually serving us dog food and telling us it is filet mignon. The team is awful. The roster is awful. Most of these guys won't be here if this team ever gets good. Stop with the nonsense.
    Agreed on ED.

    I personally am surprised by DD. He made tremendous strides this year, imo, given he was drafted as a raw project.

    Barring future development of young guys, I am in agreement on the level of talent on the team in the here and now. The Raps had starters who should be 2nd string; 2nd string who should be 3rd string; and 3rd string who would struggle to play in the league with the majority of NBA teams.

    Now with that said, I am still optimistic for the future. Barbosa, JJ, Kleiza (if he returns healthy), and Amir are all quality 2nd string players. I have faith ED and DD will continue to develop as they are currently at the top of their respective draft classes. There is a high lottery pick coming and one thing BC can do is draft - luckily he'll most likely have another next season, if he is around to use it. Finally, if a trade comes along (read: Calderon, Bargnani, or Barbosa) that makes the team better, I have no doubt those guys will be bid adieu.

    Bottom line: I'm happy with the way the re-build has begun. Unfortunately, it is a long way from complete. For those expecting OKC like results, there are enough posts from me showing the Raps are only completing year 2 of 5 as it took OKC 5 years to get to where they are today.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Wait, Australia isn't off the coast of Scotland?
    Note I am trying to say foreign players (not only euros) particularly with an emphasis on no NCAA background.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You know you're not making your case stronger with this comment. You're just making it obvious why you don't like European players.
    no you are missing my point...

    this is in this day and age where players are forming their own teams with their firends - what keeps teams together is:
    a) Market: Big city warm weather preferred
    b) Friendship: Melo wants to play with Amare and now so does Paul Bosh wants to play with Bron and wade.. get it?

    - as such you should try to put as many of them together as possible. Bosh may have stuck around (and I am glad he didn't at this point) ... but he may have stuck around if he had Lamarcus Alderidge (who he knew since high school in Texas) and Andre Igudala instead of going in to battle with Hoffa (8 blocks in one season) and Bargs... Hoffa had the personality of used kitty litter - frankly I am surprised bosh signed ever for 3 more years...
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

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    I don't think the OP has anything against Europeans, it is simply that the ones Colangelo has acquired other than Garbajosa have been more or poor defenders, and defense is the biggest shortcoming of this team. Any lineup containing two of Bargnani, Kleiza and Calderon (potentially 3/5th of the starting lineup next year) is not going to be good. It's not a knock against Calderon (for all you Jose supporters), it is simply time-tested truth.

    All I'll say about Kanter is that we shouldn't confuse him with Bargnani.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    I don't think the OP has anything against Europeans, it is simply that the ones Colangelo has acquired other than Garbajosa have been more or poor defenders, and defense is the biggest shortcoming of this team. Any lineup containing two of Bargnani, Kleiza and Calderon (potentially 3/5th of the starting lineup next year) is not going to be good. It's not a knock against Calderon (for all you Jose supporters), it is simply time-tested truth.

    All I'll say about Kanter is that we shouldn't confuse him with Bargnani.
    I would put an * next to Kleiza. Totally agreed on Bargnani and Calderon. One of those guys, at the very least, cannot start next year with a more likely (and hopeful) scenario of one or both being traded.

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    Quote Arsenalist wrote: View Post
    I don't think the OP has anything against Europeans, it is simply that the ones Colangelo has acquired other than Garbajosa have been more or poor defenders, and defense is the biggest shortcoming of this team. Any lineup containing two of Bargnani, Kleiza and Calderon (potentially 3/5th of the starting lineup next year) is not going to be good. It's not a knock against Calderon (for all you Jose supporters), it is simply time-tested truth.

    All I'll say about Kanter is that we shouldn't confuse him with Bargnani.
    One of the consistent themes from this year has been a need for a defense that is at least passable. It seems very doubtful that Calderone / Bargnani can be on the floor at the same time as DD and for us to be able to function as a competitive team. We expect DD's defense to improve next year, but it will not be a strength for the Raptors.

    I want BC back.
    I want D'Antoni. (I might accept options)
    I do not want Triano.

    As for drafting? It depends on the direction the franchise is going in. The simple answer is to take the best player at the 1, 5 or 3 spot. What are the trade possibilities? If there is a new Coach where does he want to hopefully direct the team? This last 2 weeks or so the team has often been a lot of fun to watch. Apollo threw out a comment in another thread that after the Milwaukee game he was proud of how they were ending the season. And I easily agreed. The result and the effort was appreciated. They often did better in their short-bench Alamo-style end of the season in probably a lot of peoples view. We saw some new possibilities. And the season ended on more of an upside than I expected.

    Very hopeful going forward. And truly disappointed watching the Kings probably end their existence tonite.
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

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    No Calderon, no Kleiza, no Bargnani and we still let Miami's bench put up 97 points.. I want to be optimistic going forward as much as the next guy, but all our whipping boys sat out and we got spanked by someone's bench. The draft lottery can't distract me soon enough..

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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    Argentina is my fav European country.

    I like your team UNITY argument too. That made me laugh. I mean, who would wanna hang out with a foreigner?
    Guys, it seems some people have been getting on Charlz too much for saying the truth (even though it might sound like racism (hell no, I am a black man, I see overt racism everyday but I was not offended by Charlz's European comment)). Basically, one thing has been missing from the Toronto Raptors team under BC's tenure which is clearly underrated - team chemistry. Without team chemistry in basketball teams, those basketball teams underachieve (Yes, a Ronaldo or Messi can bail your team out in soccer, but LBJ, Wade and Bryant will underachieve with a toxic dressing room - Fact! imo). What will it take for the European players to extend an hand of friendship to the Americans on this team by:-

    1. Going out to team dinner after the last game of the season against the Miami Heat and post those pictures on the Raptors website?
    2. Staying one week in Canada with their American teammates for some team bonding at bowling alleys, gym practice and showing up at local recs to play and sign autographs for their fans instead of going home to their countries immediately and not coming back until few weeks to training camp?

    If the Europeans can't be bothered with doing the above two to get some team chemistry, why does BC continue to hire these guys? or does BC need to organize team dinners before these guys on the Raptors team get it? Food for thought.

    Once again, I reteirate team chemistry is very important to a basketball team. My 2 cents.

    PS I don't support his Europeans are soft arguments, BC just happens to hire the soft Euros to this team that is all . I like Aryvdas Sabonis' and Marc Gasol's body of work and I am a huge fans of the new Turkish big men in the league in Ersan Illyasova and Omer Asik.

    "Nuff said.

  15. #55
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    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    Note I am trying to say foreign players (not only euros) particularly with an emphasis on no NCAA background.
    Then you're also talking about Nene, Scola, Varejao and Ibaka. You think those guys are soft? Are you kidding me?

    Quote charlz wrote: View Post
    no you are missing my point...

    this is in this day and age where players are forming their own teams with their firends - what keeps teams together is:
    a) Market: Big city warm weather preferred
    b) Friendship: Melo wants to play with Amare and now so does Paul Bosh wants to play with Bron and wade.. get it?

    - as such you should try to put as many of them together as possible. Bosh may have stuck around (and I am glad he didn't at this point) ... but he may have stuck around if he had Lamarcus Alderidge (who he knew since high school in Texas) and Andre Igudala instead of going in to battle with Hoffa (8 blocks in one season) and Bargs... Hoffa had the personality of used kitty litter - frankly I am surprised bosh signed ever for 3 more years...
    I have no argument with your first point, but Bosh didn't go to Miami because he was such good friends with LeBron and Wade. He went there because they are two of the best players in the NBA and he knew they would have a great chance at winning a Championship by teaming up. Carmelo didn't go to New York because he's such good buddies with Amare (as far as I know he's not). He went there because it's New York and because it had one of the better big men in the league.

    Bosh already had two close friends on the Raptors, in Jack and Calderon (who is European, by the way), but it didn't stop him from leaving. You think these top players only are friends with other top players?

    Great players generally want three things. Money, recognition and to win. Not necessarily in that order.

    If getting an international player is going to help them win, then that's all that matters to them. You think 35 year old Ilgauskas hangs out with 26 year old LeBron James? Highly doubtful. But they have enough professional respect for one another that Igauskas wanted to follow LeBron to Miami and LeBron wanted him on the team.

    If a player is too stupid to realize that they don't have be best friends with a player to be good teammates, then that player is probably not someone you want on the team anyway because he's probably never going to understand what it takes to win.
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    "The only guy on the team this year who clearly exceeded expectations was Ed Davis. Derozan has improved a lot but is everyone really ready to hand over the starting 2-spot to him indefinitely? Everyone else is at best a 7th or 8th man and you only need two of those, not 6."


    Amen, and exceeding expectations doesn't mean your a hands down all-star staring center / power forward. We need three key pieces: a center, a small forward, and a point guard.
    I say this summer we fill those three spots with one draft pick one signing and one trade. If we fill those three needs then maybe we have Calderon, or bayless, bargnagni, or Johnson, and one of those other boys as the bench.

    One.
    O D da system.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote joey_hesketh wrote: View Post
    So BC should go out and bring in another 8-9 new faces into the Mix? I disagree with this.
    You need continuity, even if alot of these guys will be coming off the bench, or not playing at all, you can't just keep bringing in a whole new team with hopes that all of them are exactly what you need going forward.
    This criticism misses the mark but it demolishes a straw man nicely. I wasn't advocating blowing up the team every year and looking for home runs at 4 or 5 vital slots in the rotation annually. I'm a little insulted you think I am that stupid. My point was that the current meme that is developing that this team has plenty of assets to fill key positions is incorrect and can't go uncontested. Otherwise, we're left with guys like Doug Smith and Eric Smith blowing smoke up our a**es about how James Johnson is a starter in the NBA or other such nonsense like Reggie Evans would really help the front court.

    The team has a severe lack of talent, the current roster isn't the answer, and a lot of new pieces need to be accumulated. That's the point. Don't serve me Friskies on a bun and tell me it's a lobster roll. I don't think this should be controversial to anyone who has watched this team for 82 games.

  18. #58
    Raptors Republic Rookie sabas's Avatar
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    The question to ask is *why* the clear bias towards foreign players during Colangelo's tenure? With the exception of the (relatively) recent acquisitions of Johnson, Bayless and to a lesser extent Weems, I've been critical of Colangelo's swayed preference for foreigners. It's such a marketing scheme thru and thru that at some point you ask yourself whether we're in the market for the best player available, or for any foreign player that diversifies our current roster?

    I can definitely see MLSE sitting in a boardroom and arranging a strategic framework for how to grow the popularity of this team, both locally and globally. Branding it with the international flavour, and selling it as such, is a no-brainer. Fine. Sounds like a fun idea. But only if we win.

    This strategy needs to be abandoned immediately. And based on recent happenings, it appears it will be. Thank goodness.

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    Raptors Republic Starter charlz's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post

    I have no argument with your first point, but Bo..... .... never going to understand what it takes to win.
    It is by no means a home run but it is a big piece of the pie. Durrant resigned in OKC because of Westbrook - the city has been good to him too - but if he were playing along side a key piece who was only intrested in playing offense and did not hang with him - I would wager his chances of staying would have been dramatically slimmer.
    "I may be wrong ... but I doubt it"

  20. #60
    Super Moderator Joey's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    The team has a severe lack of talent, the current roster isn't the answer, and a lot of new pieces need to be accumulated. That's the point. Don't serve me Friskies on a bun and tell me it's a lobster roll. I don't think this should be controversial to anyone who has watched this team for 82 games.
    That sounds like you are advocating 'Blowing up the roster'.
    But perhaps I am misinterpreting what you are saying.

    And how does having a guy average 10+ rebounds NOT help your front court?

    I personally think that if we kept Amir, Ed, Jerryd, Demar, Reggie, JJ, Andrea, Jose, etc. and all were given a full season of healthy basketball, we would win more than 23 games. I could promise you that actually. So I don't think this team is as talent-deficient as you may think. At least in my opinion.
    In Masai we Trust.

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