View Poll Results: Should the players accept the current proposal by owners by Wednesday?

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Thread: The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  1. #1
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

    What are our baseline assumptions? Do we take the owners at their word that they're losing money and that the players are overpaid by about $700 million? For their part, they say they've provided certified accounting stattements and tax records to the players -- so there's at least some semblance of an open book. That doesn't make it impossible to hide things, but I'm more inclined to believe statemens that are backed up by data.

    So let's go with a premise that the next agreement needs to bring down player costs by about a third. The solution needs to do three things:

    1. Get them out of the mess they're in currently.
    2. Implement a system where they can't get right back into the same mess.
    3. Fix inequities created by differences in market size and owner financial resources.

    The answer to the third point is easy -- increased revenue sharing. For their part, the league has said that they're addressing revenue sharing separately but in parallel to the CBA discussions.

    The answer to #1 is principally salary rollbacks.

    Finally, the answer to #2 is primarily dealing with long-term guaranteed contracts. It's not guys like Kobe Bryant -- earning $25 million but also having an MVP-caliber season -- who are the problem. It's the guys like Eddy Curry, who are raking in eight figures for almost zero production. The Knicks would waive him in a hot second if they can escape paying his salary. And I'm not sure fans should be made to continue subsidizing him with their ticket & jersey purchases while he languishes on the bench.

    So here's a "tough love" proposal:

    *. A salary rollback. The owners will want 33%, the players 0%, but let's compromise at 20%. The rollback will be progessive, so that minimum-salary guys aren't touched at all, and the max salary guys take the greatest hit -- but the overall reduction is 20%.
    * The salary cap is based on net revenues rather than gross revenues. The inclusion/exclusions and the percentage split needs to be figured out, to ensure a correct revenue split.
    * Contracts can be guaranteed for two years, plus the "following" year (on January 10). A new contract is guaranteed for two years. The third year becomes guaranteed on Jan 10 of the second year. The fourth year becomes guaranteed on January 10 of the third year, etc.
    * All minimum-salary contracts are fully guaranteed. Protect the guys whose entire career might be just a couple seasons.
    * Max salaries stay where they are, but they become just that -- the maximum. No more exceeding the maximum via raises.
    * Teams retain Bird rights, but sign-and-trade goes away. It's like someone having a credit card that allows them to make purchses they can't afford, and having a heart attack when the credit card bill arrives.
    * Contracts are limited to five years. The mid-level exception is limited to three. The bi-annual goes away.
    * Non-simultaneous trades go away (and with them, trade exceptions).
    * A franchise tag is available, which can only be used on one player at a time, can't be used on the same player more than twice, and when applied, constitutes a one-year contract at the maximum salary.
    * A revenue sharing system is devised that equalizes teams based on market size and owner wealth, but rewards well-run and financially successful teams. This system takes the place of the luxury tax, which is eliminated.
    * Oh, and finally, sportswriters get 10%. We'll ask for 10% of the gross, but we'll settle for 10% of the net.
    Source: Hoops World

    Great insight. This guy really knows his stuff and I always love reading his opinion. In case you have not see my suggested sites on the RR Forums Questions, Suggestions or Feedback board then here:

    Larry Coon's NBA Salary Cap FAQ

    You'll be hard pressed to find a better explanation of the current CBA.

  2. #2
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default More From Coon

    Will there be a lockout?
    With me it's not whether we'll have a lockout, it's how much of the season we'll lose.

    In 2005 they came to a quick agreement, but the two sides weren't very far apart. This year they want to make a fundamental change to the economics of the league. It'll be a huge pill for the players to swallow, and they won't do it without a tough fight. It'll be worse than 1998 -- and the 1998 lockout lasted until January 1999.

    When will the lockout end?
    I think it'll last until at least November 15, when the players miss their first paychecks. No reason for the owners to start serious horse trading until the players start to hurt from missing income.
    Source: Hoops World

  3. #3
    Raptors Republic All-Star grindhouse's Avatar
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    looks good especially the franchise tag, it will do more to keep teams competitive than anything else.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    best name ever.

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    Raptors Republic Starter albertan_10's Avatar
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    Default The Lockout & the Raptors

    After I saw the box score tonight I got this sick feeling that we won't see the Raptors play for a long time. Stupid owners, stupid players, just make a freaking deal. Man I hate unions. I have a feeling we're going to hear about some player discontent too once all of this is done. I wonder who the next Hedo will be.....

  6. #6
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I hear you friend but keep this in mind though: The NBA PA only has enough money to pay the players for less than a month. These guys live lavish lifestyles. Cut the money pipeline off and you'll see them blinking 100 times per minute. I think the worst case scenario is half a season of work stoppage. Especially if the NBA convinces FIBA to close the doors to their guys.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I hear you friend but keep this in mind though: The NBA PA only has enough money to pay the players for less than a month. These guys live lavish lifestyles. Cut the money pipeline off and you'll see them blinking 100 times per minute. I think the worst case scenario is half a season of work stoppage. Especially if the NBA convinces FIBA to close the doors to their guys.
    If the lower salary players will allow the higher salary players to speak for them, then they're toast. Mind you, the all-stars dont entirely rely on their paychecks, they have endorsements, appearances, etc. And its fairly obvious, the lower-salary players are the ones who are signing up in europe to play. Up until the lower-salary players dont speak up, then the season will not start.

  8. #8
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default No Raptors summer league team this year...

    In two more signs that the NBA is gearing up for a lockout starting July 1, the league has scrubbed its annual Las Vegas summer league and has also scuttled its annual summer internship program, according to league sources.

    The Las Vegas summer league normally starts around July 9, with upwards of 20 teams, including the Knicks, sending little-used veteran players and rookies to compete over a 10-day period.

    Also, the NBA usually hires about 30 college students to participate in a 10-week internship program in the league's offices in New York and at the league's entertainment division in Secaucus, N.J.

    In preparing for a lockout, the NBA is also not sending any teams abroad for training camp, and did not schedule any preseason games in Europe for this fall.

    Owners and players have not held formal negotiations since mid-February, but are expected to resume talks this month. The collective bargaining agreement expires June 30.-Mitch Lawrence
    Source: NY Daily News

  9. #9
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Book it

    At 32, guard Maurice Evans is Washington’s oldest player. But he’s putting his wisdom to use in the NBA in more ways than just helping the young Wizards.

    Evans is a vice president of the NBA Players Association. The union’s nine-player executive board, headed by president Derek Fisher of the Los Angeles Lakers, is working with union executive director Billy Hunter to try to secure a new collective bargaining agreement after the current one expires June 30.

    Technically, Evans says there will be a lockout this summer since he doesn’t see any way the sides can bridge their wide gap by the start of July. Owners want to drastically cut salaries while the players are in favor of the status quo.

    Evans, though, is hoping an agreement can be reached sometime during the summer and no games will be lost, unlike when the season was reduced to 50 games due to a 1998-99 lockout. With players just three months away from likely being locked out, Evans talked to HoopsHype about the current state of affairs

    Could you provide an update on collective bargaining following the meeting between the sides in February during All-Star Weekend?

    Maurice Evans: We’re just waiting until the season is pretty much over because we won’t have a chance to all meet again until the NBA Finals are over with (in mid-June). I’m sure we won’t get a deal done by July 1. Therefore, it technically will be a lockout. Hopefully, we’re going to solve those issues before the season starts again.

    So it’s pretty much understood that no way will a deal get done by July 1?

    ME: Because we’ve had a number of meetings starting over a year ago, almost two years out, and we still haven’t been able to really come to any significant negotiations. Therefore, I know it’s going to go into the summer.

    To clarify, you’re saying a lockout is pretty certain July 1?

    ME: Yeah, but I’m hoping it’s not a true lockout, meaning that people will miss checks and miss games more less for the fans. Because we’ve got too much momentum going right now to (miss time next season).
    Source: HoopsHype.com

  10. #10
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Raptors players will get pay day overseas? No so fast...

    Tim, it all comes down to what FIBA wants to do.
    There’s no such clarity when it comes to the likes of Bryant, Nowitzki and Jennings, because all three would remain under contract to their current NBA employers during a lockout. That reality has spawned the widespread belief that the sport’s international governing body (FIBA) -- presumably under pressure from David Stern -- would block any player contracted to an NBA team from playing elsewhere, since Stern has staunchly supported the participation of NBA players in FIBA’s international tournaments for the past two decades despite the frequent protestations of his owners.

    Nowitzki himself sounds pessimistic about securing the freedom to sample the ball in Greece or his native Germany if the 2011-12 season doesn’t start on time, as covered in this cyberspace earlier this month.

    Sources close to the situation, however, say that the NBA Players Association is quietly convinced that such pessimism is misplaced and that its players actually can’t be blocked from playing overseas during a lockout.

    The union, according to one source, believes that NBA teams ultimately will not be able to legally enforce contracts during an NBA shutdown, whether it’s short or long, which would theoretically clear the way for the Lakers’ and Mavericks’ worst nightmare.

    Yet I’ve also been strongly advised that the union anticipates having to caution its constituents with two very strong warnings about playing elsewhere during a lockout in the event that labor negotiations drag into the fall and the NBA finds itself unexpectedly powerless to prevent vets from moonlighting abroad:

    1. The union will be telling its players that they risk forfeiting any guaranteed money left on their NBA contracts if they suffer serious injury overseas. Bryant, for example, is owed $83.5 million over the next three seasons. Nowitzki is currently in the first season of a new four-year, $80 million deal. The Lakers and Mavericks would almost certainly have the ability to void those deals if Bryant or Nowitzki suffered some sort of catastrophic injury in an overseas gym. And you have to believe -- drastic as the notion of cutting ties with franchise icons sounds in those examples -- that the threat of getting hurt and invalidating a guaranteed contract will deter plenty of people.

    2. The union, I’m told, is also realistic about the overseas market and knows that only a limited numbers of players can reasonably expect decent offers. There are likewise very few teams, even in Europe’s biggest leagues, with the budget to come anywhere close to NBA money, which is why we never saw the once-feared exodus of NBA players after Josh Childress left for Greece in the summer of 2008 for two seasons with Olympiacos. So no one in the players' association, even if its legal read proves correct, is prepared to suggest that Europe will be a legitimate option for more than a handful of locked-out NBAers.
    Source: ESPN.com

  11. #11
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    What does this mean for the NDBL? There may have been some mentions of this somewhere, but I probably ignored it. As far as I know, the NDBL players are not in the same union, because they have very different rules governing them.
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    I don't understand why the player's union is fighting to take away the age minimum for drafting. All that does is take jobs away from veterans that know the game so teams can draft prospects.

    It's so dumb. It's hard to make the players look like good guys in this one.

    So sad. I'm not gonna start watching hockey.
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  13. #13
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    The players get 6 cheques a year starting on the 15th of November. Every missed cheque is a loss of 17% of their salary. Come December 15th and they have missed 1/3 a year salary, things will get done very quickly and it will probably be worse than they could have agreed to a year ago.

    The players have 0 leverage in this dispute - none, zilch, nada. When owners are no longer losing money because operations are shut down, they can continue to wait it out until they get a deal that doesn't have over half the team losing money each season.

    Unfortunately that rational and sound fact will not dawn on the players until December 15th at the earliest.

  14. #14
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Their view is that guys shouldn't be forced to do anything. Those old guys can do what most old guys do who don't want to give it up, move to China. Brandon Jennings should have never been forced to go overseas to be a pro when he wanted to be a pro.

    If a guy is ready and willing he should be allowed to turn pro. Laws put in place which take rights away from people to "protect" them are never really put in place to protect them, they're put in place to serve other purposes. The age limit did nothing to help the NBA. The NBA is getting those kids no matter what. That rule was all about the NCAA losing out on marketable stars who were going to the NBA young.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Their view is that guys shouldn't be forced to do anything. Those old guys can do what most old guys do who don't want to give it up, move to China. Brandon Jennings should have never been forced to go overseas to be a pro when he wanted to be a pro.

    If a guy is ready and willing he should be allowed to turn pro. Laws put in place which take rights away from people to "protect" them are never really put in place to protect them, they're put in place to serve other purposes. The age limit did nothing to help the NBA. The NBA is getting those kids no matter what. That rule was all about the NCAA losing out on marketable stars who were going to the NBA young.
    WHile I understand their argument, I, for one, would love to see the age limit go up to 20. Nothing is stopping these guys from playing professionally, even in North America. There is no age limit in the NDBL. In fact, one guy who was drafted last year went straight from high school to the NDBL for a year and then into the draft.

    The reason I'd like to see the age limit raised is because it simply means a better product on the court. Fans don't pay all that money to see players go through growing pains. I'd like to see even slightly more finished products enter the league. I like DeRozan, but I'd have loved to see him stay another year at USC and come into the league more polished. Too many guys come into the league and still are learning the game. Raising the age limit would simply make for a better game.
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Their view is that guys shouldn't be forced to do anything. Those old guys can do what most old guys do who don't want to give it up, move to China. Brandon Jennings should have never been forced to go overseas to be a pro when he wanted to be a pro.

    If a guy is ready and willing he should be allowed to turn pro. Laws put in place which take rights away from people to "protect" them are never really put in place to protect them, they're put in place to serve other purposes. The age limit did nothing to help the NBA. The NBA is getting those kids no matter what. That rule was all about the NCAA losing out on marketable stars who were going to the NBA young.
    I'm surprised you feel that way. If you feel some players aren't ready after a year of NCAA (of where ever) imagine if they didn't play that year. For every LBJ there's 2 Kwame Browns. You could say that Kwame never amounted to anything, but then again teams prob wouldn't have drafted him #1 after watching another year.

    Most kids out of high school are RAW, and more and more teams start drafting out of potential. It slows the game down. In my brain that's a fact.
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  17. #17
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    I'm surprised you feel that way. If you feel some players aren't ready after a year of NCAA (of where ever) imagine if they didn't play that year.
    Employee, that's why there's D-league.

    Quote Employee wrote: View Post
    For every LBJ there's 2 Kwame Browns. You could say that Kwame never amounted to anything, but then again teams prob wouldn't have drafted him #1 after watching another year.

    Most kids out of high school are RAW, and more and more teams start drafting out of potential. It slows the game down. In my brain that's a fact.
    It's the team's choice to take risks. There's no one to blame but the team. That's not a young player issue, that's a team management issue. Drafting young guys does not slow the game down. If they're not ready to hit the floor they typically don't. If they're not ready for extended minutes they typically don't. Teams taking guys with on year of college are still take nearly the same amount of risk.

    DeRozan was a huge risk based on potential. He stunk, was a total disappointment, for most of his one and only season of college. He got hot in the second half and impressed enough that Colangelo gave him a chance. It was an excellent choice but a risky choice.

  18. #18
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Employee, that's why there's D-league.



    It's the team's choice to take risks. There's no one to blame but the team. That's not a young player issue, that's a team management issue. Drafting young guys does not slow the game down. If they're not ready to hit the floor they typically don't. If they're not ready for extended minutes they typically don't. Teams taking guys with on year of college are still take nearly the same amount of risk.

    DeRozan was a huge risk based on potential. He stunk, was a total disappointment, for most of his one and only season of college. He got hot in the second half and impressed enough that Colangelo gave him a chance. It was an excellent choice but a risky choice.
    Ok, it's the team's choice, for sure. And I agree, there's always going to be risks, even out of college. But I think we saw more and more teams drafting high school players and taking bigger and bigger risks. When teams are allowed to take those risks then there's more of a chance of getting a bust.

    If my memory serves correct, I think there was a D League but it was just beginning. I love the D League and think it's a great tool. Your argument is that is where the high school kids could be playing. My argument is that is another roster spot taken from a vet that knows the game.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    It's the team's choice to take risks. There's no one to blame but the team. That's not a young player issue, that's a team management issue. Drafting young guys does not slow the game down. If they're not ready to hit the floor they typically don't. If they're not ready for extended minutes they typically don't. Teams taking guys with on year of college are still take nearly the same amount of risk.

    DeRozan was a huge risk based on potential. He stunk, was a total disappointment, for most of his one and only season of college. He got hot in the second half and impressed enough that Colangelo gave him a chance. It was an excellent choice but a risky choice.
    If a player with a lot of potential, but will take time to develop, is available, teams HAVE to take a chance on him or else they might lose out on a great player. The best teams gamble, and you're asking them not to do that. What would be better is to not put them in the position where they have to choose. Raise the age limit and make drafting a little less of a gamble and have the rookies a little more polished. It's good for the team AND the fans.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Their view is that guys shouldn't be forced to do anything. Those old guys can do what most old guys do who don't want to give it up, move to China. Brandon Jennings should have never been forced to go overseas to be a pro when he wanted to be a pro.

    If a guy is ready and willing he should be allowed to turn pro. Laws put in place which take rights away from people to "protect" them are never really put in place to protect them, they're put in place to serve other purposes. The age limit did nothing to help the NBA. The NBA is getting those kids no matter what. That rule was all about the NCAA losing out on marketable stars who were going to the NBA young.
    i see your point, and in alot of ways i agree with you...

    but, for me, it comes down to work experience. i can't walk into any accounting firm and go "hey, i was great at math in high school. give me your highest paying job right now!"

    the ncaa and foreign leagues give the league a means of ensuring they invest their money in employees who havent only tested their skills against other children.

    at the end of the day, its a job. there has to be requirements or else what you get is kwame brown going #1.

    the NBA should be able to put "X amount of years of relevant work experience" on their monster dot com job posting. right?

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