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The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

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  • #16
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    Tim, one year of college and out is still leading to watching young guys struggle on the court. This is all about the NCAA and has nothing to do with the NBA. If the NBA was truely concerned about development and the players having a backup plan they would mandate that a player can't enter the draft until he graduates college or reaches the age of 23.

    And most guys who go to the NDBL are never seen again.
    I agree that 1 year does very little, which is why I'd like to see at least two years. It's really hard to come out of college polished after less than 2 years. I don't care WHY they do it, I just would like to see them do it.

    As for the NDBL, the reason most players who go into the NDBL are never seen again has nothing to do with the age limit. If Jennings had gone into the NDBL, which was an option, instead of Europe, he still would have been a top 15 pick.

    Speaking of the NDBL, I'd love to see them utilize it more. If it means some guys who don't want to go to college going there instead, then so be it. I'd also like to see all NBA teams own their own NDBL team. It would mean they would be more likely to send players down there for extended periods, since they'd still have control over their development. Sending Alibi back and forth was a little ridiculous. If they had guys on their own NDBL team that could work with Alibi and develop him, then it allow NBA teams to focus on more things iike, you know, trying to win.
    Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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    • #17
      It would suck to be without basketball but take our high draft pick this year, play a 40 game season next year leaving us little time to improve and head right back to the head of the ping pong class for another year. Not my most intelligent post but this is all depressing

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      • #18
        Apollo wrote: View Post
        Their view is that guys shouldn't be forced to do anything. Those old guys can do what most old guys do who don't want to give it up, move to China. Brandon Jennings should have never been forced to go overseas to be a pro when he wanted to be a pro.

        If a guy is ready and willing he should be allowed to turn pro. Laws put in place which take rights away from people to "protect" them are never really put in place to protect them, they're put in place to serve other purposes. The age limit did nothing to help the NBA. The NBA is getting those kids no matter what. That rule was all about the NCAA losing out on marketable stars who were going to the NBA young.
        I'm surprised you feel that way. If you feel some players aren't ready after a year of NCAA (of where ever) imagine if they didn't play that year. For every LBJ there's 2 Kwame Browns. You could say that Kwame never amounted to anything, but then again teams prob wouldn't have drafted him #1 after watching another year.

        Most kids out of high school are RAW, and more and more teams start drafting out of potential. It slows the game down. In my brain that's a fact.
        Eh follow my TWITTER!

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        • #19
          Jclaw wrote: View Post
          It would suck to be without basketball but take our high draft pick this year, play a 40 game season next year leaving us little time to improve and head right back to the head of the ping pong class for another year. Not my most intelligent post but this is all depressing
          Next year's draft is being pegged as ultra ultra deep. Depressing still, I know.
          Eh follow my TWITTER!

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          • #20
            Employee wrote: View Post
            I'm surprised you feel that way. If you feel some players aren't ready after a year of NCAA (of where ever) imagine if they didn't play that year.
            Employee, that's why there's D-league.

            Employee wrote: View Post
            For every LBJ there's 2 Kwame Browns. You could say that Kwame never amounted to anything, but then again teams prob wouldn't have drafted him #1 after watching another year.

            Most kids out of high school are RAW, and more and more teams start drafting out of potential. It slows the game down. In my brain that's a fact.
            It's the team's choice to take risks. There's no one to blame but the team. That's not a young player issue, that's a team management issue. Drafting young guys does not slow the game down. If they're not ready to hit the floor they typically don't. If they're not ready for extended minutes they typically don't. Teams taking guys with on year of college are still take nearly the same amount of risk.

            DeRozan was a huge risk based on potential. He stunk, was a total disappointment, for most of his one and only season of college. He got hot in the second half and impressed enough that Colangelo gave him a chance. It was an excellent choice but a risky choice.

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            • #21
              Phil: Some people are "pretty convinced there's not going to be a year next year"

              "Who knows what the NBA is going to look like next year?" Jackson continued. "It's going to take on a whole different proportion. How long is it going to last? I think there are some people who are pretty convinced there's not going to be a year next year."
              Source: ESPN.com

              David Stern then turned around and issued Phil Jackson a $75,000 fine for his trouble.

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              • #22
                Apollo wrote: View Post
                Employee, that's why there's D-league.



                It's the team's choice to take risks. There's no one to blame but the team. That's not a young player issue, that's a team management issue. Drafting young guys does not slow the game down. If they're not ready to hit the floor they typically don't. If they're not ready for extended minutes they typically don't. Teams taking guys with on year of college are still take nearly the same amount of risk.

                DeRozan was a huge risk based on potential. He stunk, was a total disappointment, for most of his one and only season of college. He got hot in the second half and impressed enough that Colangelo gave him a chance. It was an excellent choice but a risky choice.
                Ok, it's the team's choice, for sure. And I agree, there's always going to be risks, even out of college. But I think we saw more and more teams drafting high school players and taking bigger and bigger risks. When teams are allowed to take those risks then there's more of a chance of getting a bust.

                If my memory serves correct, I think there was a D League but it was just beginning. I love the D League and think it's a great tool. Your argument is that is where the high school kids could be playing. My argument is that is another roster spot taken from a vet that knows the game.
                Eh follow my TWITTER!

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                • #23
                  Apollo wrote: View Post
                  It's the team's choice to take risks. There's no one to blame but the team. That's not a young player issue, that's a team management issue. Drafting young guys does not slow the game down. If they're not ready to hit the floor they typically don't. If they're not ready for extended minutes they typically don't. Teams taking guys with on year of college are still take nearly the same amount of risk.

                  DeRozan was a huge risk based on potential. He stunk, was a total disappointment, for most of his one and only season of college. He got hot in the second half and impressed enough that Colangelo gave him a chance. It was an excellent choice but a risky choice.
                  If a player with a lot of potential, but will take time to develop, is available, teams HAVE to take a chance on him or else they might lose out on a great player. The best teams gamble, and you're asking them not to do that. What would be better is to not put them in the position where they have to choose. Raise the age limit and make drafting a little less of a gamble and have the rookies a little more polished. It's good for the team AND the fans.
                  Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                  Follow me on Twitter.

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                  • #24
                    Apollo wrote: View Post
                    Their view is that guys shouldn't be forced to do anything. Those old guys can do what most old guys do who don't want to give it up, move to China. Brandon Jennings should have never been forced to go overseas to be a pro when he wanted to be a pro.

                    If a guy is ready and willing he should be allowed to turn pro. Laws put in place which take rights away from people to "protect" them are never really put in place to protect them, they're put in place to serve other purposes. The age limit did nothing to help the NBA. The NBA is getting those kids no matter what. That rule was all about the NCAA losing out on marketable stars who were going to the NBA young.
                    i see your point, and in alot of ways i agree with you...

                    but, for me, it comes down to work experience. i can't walk into any accounting firm and go "hey, i was great at math in high school. give me your highest paying job right now!"

                    the ncaa and foreign leagues give the league a means of ensuring they invest their money in employees who havent only tested their skills against other children.

                    at the end of the day, its a job. there has to be requirements or else what you get is kwame brown going #1.

                    the NBA should be able to put "X amount of years of relevant work experience" on their monster dot com job posting. right?

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                    • #25
                      Well, assuming the Owners come back with a reasonable proposal this could all be over in a couple weeks! Wonderful!... ugh.

                      NBA Commissioner David Stern said Friday the league plans to submit to the players' union a revised proposal for a new collective bargaining agreement within the next couple of weeks.

                      Neither Stern nor deputy commissioner Adam Silver would offer details of what would be in their proposal to replace the current CBA, which expires June 30. They are not close to a new deal, triggering fears of a lockout, which Silver says is "beginning to have an impact on our business.''

                      The league submitted its original proposal in January 2010 and the players quickly rejected it during a meeting at the All-Star weekend in Dallas. The union offered a counterproposal last July, but the owners had no interest in it, and there has been no progress since then.

                      But the league seems willing to reopen negotiations. Stern said his negotiating committee would look to set up a meeting with the players' side once the new proposal has been delivered.

                      "There are other ways to reach the same goal, and that is a system in which all 30 teams can compete, and, if they are well managed, to make a profit. We have never suggested to the union that there's only one way to accomplish that end. And so, we have gone back to ownership,'' Silver said.

                      "But the goal has not changed and will not change from the team standpoint. We need a new system, and the current system is broken and is unsustainable.''

                      Owners are seeking radical changes to the CBA. Stern said the league is projecting losses of about $300 million - less than the projections in recent years - and Silver said roughly 22 teams will lose money this season.

                      The issue for the league remains the players' guarantee of 57 percent of basketball-related income, and the union has said it is open to discussing a reduction of its share. However, Silver disputed that, saying players' association executive director Billy Hunter told him 57 percent remains the target.

                      "If players are taking are taking 57 percent of the gross, it's mathematically impossible to move to a profitable position without a new system,'' Silver said.
                      Source

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                      • #26
                        Au Contraire

                        There is no way you're going to convince me that this isn't a political issue. One year of college isn't enough to mold a player. Most guys in the league take 3-5 years before they show the tell tale signs of if they're going to work out or not. The league sells this mandate on the premise that it's the best thing for the players' but if they truly meant what they're saying they would mandate "college degree or 23 years of age or no entry into the draft". This is about keeping a good relationship with the NCAA by not stealing their cash cows that the NBA doesn't need at age 17 or 18 anyway. That one year can make a big difference to a college program looking to sell merchandise and tickets. That year doesn't mean a thing to the NBA who already have their billion dollar money makers branded and established. Come on guys, don't fool yourself into thinking this is a social action. This is an political action. The league makes moves with the business in mind. At the end of the day, the age of draft busts doesn't affect their business. Just as many people are going to bust each year no matter what. There are only so many jobs to go around and the real stars who are going to make them the big coin are earning a place in the league one way or another.

                        People use Kwame Brown as an example of why it's wrong to allow guys straight out of high school. The guy has no heart. He would have failed no matter what route he took. The guy who drafted him is Michael Jordan and he's proven to not be able to manage a team successfully. We're talking about the guy who drafted a high lotto bust at both extremes. We have Kwames Brown, fresh out of high school. Then we have Adam Morrison, NCAA sweetheart who played four years of college and was a scoring champion. He's even more of a bust. Poor managers are going to find ways to fail and good managers are going to find ways to succeed no matter what the age minimum is on draft prospects.

                        The cream always rises to the top.

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                        • #27
                          Apollo wrote: View Post
                          There is no way you're going to convince me that this isn't a political issue. One year of college isn't enough to mold a player. Most guys in the league take 3-5 years before they show the tell tale signs of if they're going to work out or not. The league sells this mandate on the premise that it's the best thing for the players' but if they truly meant what they're saying they would mandate "college degree or 23 years of age or no entry into the draft". This is about keeping a good relationship with the NCAA by not stealing their cash cows that the NBA doesn't need at age 17 or 18 anyway. That one year can make a big difference to a college program looking to sell merchandise and tickets. That year doesn't mean a thing to the NBA who already have their billion dollar money makers branded and established. Come on guys, don't fool yourself into thinking this is a social action. This is an political action. The league makes moves with the business in mind. At the end of the day, the age of draft busts doesn't affect their business. Just as many people are going to bust each year no matter what. There are only so many jobs to go around and the real stars who are going to make them the big coin are earning a place in the league one way or another.

                          People use Kwame Brown as an example of why it's wrong to allow guys straight out of high school. The guy has no heart. He would have failed no matter what route he took. The guy who drafted him is Michael Jordan and he's proven to not be able to manage a team successfully. We're talking about the guy who drafted a high lotto bust at both extremes. We have Kwames Brown, fresh out of high school. Then we have Adam Morrison, NCAA sweetheart who played four years of college and was a scoring champion. He's even more of a bust. Poor managers are going to find ways to fail and good managers are going to find ways to succeed no matter what the age minimum is on draft prospects.

                          The cream always rises to the top.
                          Whether it's a political issue or not I still don't agree. Michael Jordan is a doofus when it comes to being a GM but I would hope even him wouldn't draft him at #1 again after watching him for a year in college.

                          As a general rule do you agree that typically players take longer to adapt to the NBA from high school? Don't you agree that while player X is developing in college that the roster spot that he would have used up the NBA could be used by a vet who knows the game and can make an impact?
                          Eh follow my TWITTER!

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                          • #28
                            Employee wrote: View Post
                            As a general rule do you agree that typically players take longer to adapt to the NBA from high school?
                            I agree and I disagree depending on what you're asking me. If you're asking me if a player who plays one year of college is better than a kid who just played his first NBA pro season straight out of high school then I would say NO. If you're asking me to compare a player with one year of college to a guy fresh out of high school then yes but that's obviously not a fair comparison. The NBA has a developmental league for a reason guys. Most of those those people in D league played NCAA and most of them were "the man" on their NCAA squads. And a kid out of high school who goes high in the lotto is probably getting more PT in D-league than most freshman in NCAA ball.

                            Employee wrote: View Post
                            Don't you agree that while player X is developing in college that the roster spot that he would have used up the NBA could be used by a vet who knows the game and can make an impact?
                            If we're talking the 13th man dressed on the bench or the two guys in suits then I say no. Those guys aren't helping no one. They're there for emergencies in most cases. They're typically players the GM is taking a flier on and have little long term future or impact in the NBA.

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                            • #29
                              One more thing.The NBA PA looks out for all it's people. It's there so they can collectively stand up for themselves. They realize that allowing high school grads in will take away a job from someone else. This reason alone should tell you they've sniffed out this age limit rule as a load of crap. If it truly helped the players they would endorse it. It has nothing to do with helping the players succeed.

                              And how many kids used to opt out of playing college for the NBA? Very few, typically the most talented. And what of those without the marks to go to a good program but have the skills to get drafted?

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                              • #30
                                Apollo wrote: View Post
                                I agree and I disagree depending on what you're asking me. If you're asking me if a player who plays one year of college is better than a kid who just played his first NBA pro season straight out of high school then I would say NO. If you're asking me to compare a player with one year of college to a guy fresh out of high school then yes but that's obviously not a fair comparison. The NBA has a developmental league for a reason guys. Most of those those people in D league played NCAA and most of them were "the man" on their NCAA squads. And a kid out of high school who goes high in the lotto is probably getting more PT in D-league than most freshman in NCAA ball.
                                The point is, what is a bigger gamble, drafting a high school player or a sophomore? And which one is going to take longer to develop? The answer is pretty obvious and why I'd want the age limit raised.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

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