View Poll Results: Should the players accept the current proposal by owners by Wednesday?

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  • Yes

    24 77.42%
  • No - not a good deal, keep negotiating

    3 9.68%
  • No - not a good deal, decertify

    4 12.90%
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Thread: The Lockout & the Raptors: Players approve CBA, Owners too! (1944)

  1. #1041
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Remember the "Stretch Exception"

    The “stretch exception”: Under this proposal, a team could waive any player and stretch out the remainder of the money he is owed, reducing the salary cap number for that waived player. For instance, if an underperforming player had three years left on his contract and was waived under the stretch exception, his remaining unpaid salary would be stretched out over a period as long as seven years. (Example: A player owed $21 million for three years who is waived under the stretch exception would still be paid his $21 million, but the cap cost would be spread over seven years, meaning he would count $3 million annually against the cap instead of $7 million.) In theory, this would free up more money to be paid to players who were worthy of the increased salary. (Also, an additional pile of money would be freed up through the amnesty clause, a one-time opportunity when this deal gets done for each team to waive one player without his salary counting against the salary cap or the luxury tax. This clause would be especially helpful to Orlando, which could remove Gilbert Arenas and the $62.4 million he is owed over the next three years, and Portland, which could do the same with Brandon Roy’s $49 million in guaranteed money over the next three seasons.)
    Source: Sheridanhoops.com

  2. #1042
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Maximum Raises

    There has been little movement here, with the owners asking that maximum raises be 4 1/2 percent for Bird players and 3 percent for others. The union wants to keep the current system of 10.5 percent raises for Bird players, with the caveat that the maximum raises would drop to 9 percent for a player signing a four- or five-year contract. For non-Bird players the union is asking for maximum raises of 8 percent in two- and three-year contracts, and 7 percent for players receiving four- or five-year deals.
    Source: Sheridanhoops.com

  3. #1043
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Escrow tax

    The owners want to change things to have an NHL-style system with an unlimited escrow tax withheld, while the union wants to keep something resembling the present system in place.
    Source: Sheridanhoops.com

  4. #1044
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Word on the Bird

    The owners are continuing to ask that tax-paying teams be prohibited from using the mid-level exception or the so-called Early Bird exception.
    Source: Sheridanhoops.com

  5. #1045
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default Players Win on Max Contracts Issue

    The old system will remain, with the hard cap on individual salaries remaining roughly 25 percent of the cap for players with 1-6 years of service, 30 percent for players with 7-9 years, and 35 percent for players with 10 or more years of experience.
    Source: Sheridanhoops.com

  6. #1046
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Default League to cancel two more weeks today

    Hearing that NBA will cancel two more weeks of games tomorrow. In other words, Christmas is still on...for now
    Source: Twitter @FisolaNYDN

  7. #1047
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default

    Further to Apollo's post:



    According to the Daily News' source, this latest cancellation would total at least 102 games and run through Nov. 28.

    The source told the Daily News that the NBA will announce the latest cancellation of games on Tuesday.

    At present, the league's annual slate of Christmas Day games remain a possibility, however no new talks between the owners and players union are scheduled.

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/71...cording-report

  8. #1048
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    I understand not wanting to go into the bear pit if you are too far apart cause it's pointless but it is not good that there are no talks planned. Maybe if you had some talks you end up with Kobe and Buss and Ariss and Wade going for a beer at 3:00 in the morning and having a come to Jesus moment. That's how most of these things get settled in the end anyway - the recent NFL lockout for one. Both sides should be in a room trying to do a deal indefinitely.

  9. #1049
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I understand not wanting to go into the bear pit if you are too far apart cause it's pointless but it is not good that there are no talks planned. Maybe if you had some talks you end up with Kobe and Buss and Ariss and Wade going for a beer at 3:00 in the morning and having a come to Jesus moment. That's how most of these things get settled in the end anyway - the recent NFL lockout for one. Both sides should be in a room trying to do a deal indefinitely.
    I would tend to agree.

    Unfortunately, the problem appears to be, as of last Thursday, neither side was willing to budge from their respective most recently negotiated position.

    It is a staring contest and each side is waiting for the other to blink.

  10. #1050
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    They need to get in a room together soon..

    and settle this old fashioned kumite style.



    ya.... im bored

  11. #1051
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...rs-and-players


    Owners

    Players


    LOSSES: In recent years owners have not only lost money operating their teams, but also in selling them. Bob Johnson, George Shinn, Bruce Ratner, et al ... owners have long been OK with occasional losses, but having little prospect of making that money back in the re-sale is tough. The league simply can't afford to keep losing money as it has.

    NOT OUR FAULT: Players are doing what they can do. TV ratings are high and attendance has been good even in a recession. The sport is as popular as ever, thick with likable young stars and poised to keep growing. Meanwhile, the league has spent mightily on GMs, coaches, marketing and international expansion, and non-player costs haven't demonstrated a great return on investment. Also, the Warriors recently sold for $450 million and the Hornets, who have been dealt as bad a hand as any team with a tiny market that has been beset by Hurricane Katrina, even have plenty of potential purchasers.



    TOUGH TIMES: The economy stinks. Everyone agrees the NFL is the most profitable sport, and even NFL players just agreed to cuts similar to what NBA players are being asked to accept.

    NOT THAT TOUGH: The NBA's economy doesn't stink. Revenues have been up almost every year. And reasonable people agree the mere passage of time -- likely to bring rich new national TV deals in 2016 and ever-increasing international growth -- will solve a lot of problems. Not to mention, league revenues have grown so much recently that owners are enjoying a billion in extra annual revenues -- after player salaries are all paid -- compared to when they made the last CBA.



    BOTTOM LINE: Teams ought to function as stand-alone businesses.

    HOBBY: Many owners have said on the record that they bought teams for reasons beyond the balance sheet. If they are hobbies, playthings, or loss-leaders ... why must they show profits?



    PLAYERS HAVE IT GOOD: No matter what, NBA jobs are good jobs, with the players guaranteed something like $2 billion a season even after cuts.

    ENOUGH ALREADY: Compared to the last CBA, the only big concession from either side has been the players' reducing their share of basketball-related income from 57 percent to 52.5 percent, which gives owners more than a billion in extra dollars to spend.



    WE CAN FIX THE GAME: Basketball has the least competitive balance of any major American sport. Tweaking the teams' payment system through revenue sharing and a harder cap can help every team have a shot at competing and will make the sport more popular.

    PROVE IT: It hasn't worked as advertised in other sports. In the meantime, aren't you mostly worried about controlling individual owners' costs to help resale values? And all these proposed restrictions ... aren't they all about protecting the worlds' sharpest and richest businessmen from making poor decisions? Why do these people need that kind of protection?

    The best of arguments in the dispute. Click on the link and you get a better visual.

    Many people throughout this thread talked about the profits owners do not share with the players when they sell a franchise. One thing I was not aware of was not all owners are selling for a profit (except Charlotte). Many owners who have bought in the last 5-10 years might not be in line for a huge profit when selling - they might even take a loss. Obviously this does not apply to a) profitable teams or b) owners who have had the team for a long time.

    So losing money operating each year and looking to recoup losses on the sale is hardly a given - and as I have stated elsewhere in this thread, that is not a sound business practice anyways. Relying on asset appreciation to cover operational losses or lack of positive cashflow is a good way to go bankrupt in the long term.

  12. #1052
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I understand not wanting to go into the bear pit if you are too far apart cause it's pointless but it is not good that there are no talks planned. Maybe if you had some talks you end up with Kobe and Buss and Ariss and Wade going for a beer at 3:00 in the morning and having a come to Jesus moment. That's how most of these things get settled in the end anyway - the recent NFL lockout for one. Both sides should be in a room trying to do a deal indefinitely.
    The NFL situation cannot be compared..they had no "system" issues to speak of...more about the division of money. And all were committed not to miss any games (because of the tv monies). The NBA of course wants a bit of a rewrite of how the star/most costly players are handled/movement which is significant. All nfl owners had very much to lose without a deal.

    Unless u were being in metaphor selecting Arison & Buss to be ownership representation...this would not fly. They are of course 2 of the richest franchises and might have already cut a deal without any system changes. We all know that it is the small market teams driving the talks now.

  13. #1053
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I understand not wanting to go into the bear pit if you are too far apart cause it's pointless but it is not good that there are no talks planned. Maybe if you had some talks you end up with Kobe and Buss and Ariss and Wade going for a beer at 3:00 in the morning and having a come to Jesus moment. That's how most of these things get settled in the end anyway - the recent NFL lockout for one. Both sides should be in a room trying to do a deal indefinitely.
    I'm not so sure that any of those people represent the majority interests of either party. Two big market team owners meeting two star players isn't going to change the minds of all the teams losing money or not making what they feel is fair.

    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would tend to agree.

    Unfortunately, the problem appears to be, as of last Thursday, neither side was willing to budge from their respective most recently negotiated position.

    It is a staring contest and each side is waiting for the other to blink.
    Fisher's unprofessional mud slinging no doubt isn't helping matters.

  14. #1054
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Bendit wrote: View Post
    The NFL situation cannot be compared..they had no "system" issues to speak of...more about the division of money. And all were committed not to miss any games (because of the tv monies). The NBA of course wants a bit of a rewrite of how the star/most costly players are handled/movement which is significant. All nfl owners had very much to lose without a deal.

    Unless u were being in metaphor selecting Arison & Buss to be ownership representation...this would not fly. They are of course 2 of the richest franchises and might have already cut a deal without any system changes. We all know that it is the small market teams driving the talks now.
    I'm not literally suggesting those 4 specific guys go for a beer and solve world hunger, it's just by way of example. It could be Sarver and Nash or Gilbert and Matt Bonner. Same with the NFL example. If you go back and study how the MLB labour wars were resolved it often involved a group of owners/players in off-the-record discussions. Same thing with the NHL back during their disaster. I'm not saying it will necessarily work here but I know what won't work, both sides sitting on their hands....
    Last edited by slaw; Tue Oct 25th, 2011 at 04:13 PM.

  15. #1055
    Raptors Republic Veteran Bendit's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I'm not literally suggesting those 4 specific guys go for a beer and solve world hunger, it's just by way of example. It could be Sarver and Nash or Gilbert and Matt Bonner. Same with the NFL example. If you go back and study how the MLB labour wars were resolved it often involved a group of owners/players in off-the-record discussions. Same thing with the NHL back during their disaster. I'm not saying it will necessarily work here but I know what won't work, both sides sitting on their hands....
    There might well be off the record discussions happening as we speak (if the US can speak to the Taliban....). It would be foolish not to with at least the mediator shuttling between rooms. However, imo, it would be dicey to put a couple of players up against a couple of shark owners who have been deal makers (to their advantage) in their other lives. It really should be Hunter and Stern only maybe with one asst.

  16. #1056
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Good point Bendit. Tossing the players into a room on their own against tycoons is like tossing them into a shark tank. I also agree that only the higher ups should discuss their position approved by their group and work from there. Easier said than done when you have many dominate personalities on each side just dieing for some combat action (Paul Allen, Garnett, wade, etc.).

  17. #1057
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Six days after talks broke off in a nasty public dispute, NBA owners and players will return to the bargaining table Wednesday, the Daily News has learned.

    The two sides are scheduled to meet in a midtown Manhattan hotel, according to league sources.

    When they broke off talks last Thursday, the two sides were miles apart on a new deal. The resumption of talks is the reason the league held off on the cancellation of at least two more weeks of the regular season. The Daily News reported on its website Monday that the league intended yesterday to announce the cancellation of games from at least Nov. 15-28.

    But with the two sides returning to the table, those plans have been put on hold, at least temporarily. So far, the first 100 games of the season, from Nov. 1-14, have been canceled.

    Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...#ixzz1bsU2V1P6
    Here we go again.....

  18. #1058
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    So true, so true. I made this point a few pages back.

    Gone, are the days of true loyalty, perseverance, competiveness, and grit. That is, when it comes to NBA superstars deciding on if they should stay or go. When you think of Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Michael Jordan, you think Celtics, Lakers, and the Bulls. When you think of Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Karl Malone, John Stockton, and Reggie Miller, you think Knicks, Spurs, Jazz, and the Pacers.

    Players mentioned wouldn’t have dreamed of teaming up together in their prime. They were too focused on figuring out how to destroy one another. Could you imagine Malone or Ewing leaving their perspective clubs to join Michael and Scottie Pippen in the mid ‘90s? I’ll answer that for you. Heck no.

    It seems as if players such as these don’t exist anymore. Don’t get me wrong, superstars like LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, and Chris Paul to name a few, would have definitely excelled in the Jordan era as well, but there’s something internal missing from this generation.

    Instead of bringing up a problem that has been regurgitated repeatedly over the last couple of years, I’m going to take it a step further and issue the reason for this sudden change and bring about a solution.

    Championships are the problem. What I mean by that is, so much is placed on winning a title. It’s like you can’t have a great career without winning one. Say what you want about this new generation of players, but you have to give them credit for observing and studying history.

    They’re looking at the careers of Malone, Barkley, Stockton, Miller and others who represent the greatest players this league has ever seen, and noticing an irremovable stain that’s attached to their legacy forever -- never winning the big one.

    This generation of players like Carmelo, LeBron, and Chris Bosh are willing to take that PR hit in ditching their squads to sign with other stars in order to get a step closer to that ultimate prize. You may call it a lack of competiveness, but is it really? All they’re trying to accomplish is what most feel great athletes should accomplish. Right or wrong, that’s the mindset.

    Owners have seen this trend and it looks as if this trend isn’t going away anytime soon as Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, and Deron Williams are likely to follow the same path. That’s why it’s important that the system be changed, due to players changing.

    A hard cap or a luxury tax system with ultra punitive measures sounds like what’s best for this current crop of players. The wealth needs to be spread around and when I say wealth, I mean superstars or all-star players.

    It’s been real easy to rag on the owners during this lockout, but what are they to do when star players are choosing to set up shop in only five cities while the other 25 teams pick up the scraps? That’s not fair to the league or to the fans of those small-market cities.

    Players want the current system to remain somewhat intact. They want teams like the Lakers or Heat to have the option if they want to sign a high-profile player and go over the luxury tax, which is not fair because most teams don’t have that option because they can’t afford it. If superstars aren’t willing to stick it out with their current teams, then a change has to be made.

    "If LeBron stayed in Cleveland, Melo stayed in Denver, and Bosh stayed in Toronto, we probably wouldn’t be having this lockout or it would have been lifted by now," a league executive told CSNNW.com

    In no way was this meant to attack the players, it’s just the reality of what’s been going on of late. You can’t knock them for exercising their right to sign with the team of their choice, but they have to understand that it comes with consequences. Players can’t have their cake and eat it, too.


    http://www.csnnw.com/pages/landingdw...06&feedID=8351
    There is nothing in here that I disagree with and it is a huge factor in my support of the owner's position in this labour dispute.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Wed Oct 26th, 2011 at 10:10 AM.

  19. #1059
    Raptors Republic Icon mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default The small market teams have become the majority and are in control

    A couple of days before the start of training camp in 2006, David Stern received an uncomfortable letter at the NBA’s New York offices.

    Eight owners signed a petition that demanded Stern address the small market/big market financial disparity they felt was a serious and growing problem. Obviously, they didn’t need to write him a letter like he was their local representative in Congress; he works for them. They did so to make a symbolic point and then released the letter to some media outlets to make sure the issue became public.

    It read: “We are asking you to embrace this issue because the hard truth is that our current economic system works only for larger-market teams and a few teams that have extraordinary success on the court and for the latter group of teams, only when they experience extraordinary success. The rest of us are looking at significant and unacceptable annual financial losses."

    The authors of the letter were Paul Allen of Portland, Herb Simon on Indiana, Bob Johnson of Charlotte, George Shinn of New Orleans, Larry Miller of Utah, Michael Heisley of Memphis, Glen Taylor of Minnesota and Herb Kohl of Milwaukee.

    Johnson and Shinn have since sold their teams and Miller has passed away, giving way to his son, Greg. But the situations in those markets haven’t changed.

    In essence, that letter is the root of the current lockout. And, it is turning out, perhaps a core reason the owners can’t make a deal with the players after more than two years of negotiations.

    Multiple league sources have emphatically told ESPN.com in the past several days that the sticking points with the players’ union do not solely break down market-size lines and that there’s unity among the owners on the need to win significant economic concessions from the players.

    But there seems to be a difference between unity and harmony.

    TrueHoop’s Henry Abbott reported Tuesday that the owners were holding a hastily-scheduled meeting in New York to further address revenue sharing issues. It comes on the heels of an owners’ meeting last week where enhanced revenue sharing was discussed -- a conversation that has been going on for nearly as long as talks with the players -- but no plan was agreed to. Stern has promised a new system that will at least triple the money being shared by teams. But so far that has just been a promise, as no plan is in place.

    The NBA’s last collective bargaining agreement was ratified in 2005 and included an increased piece of the pie for the players in the form of a jump to 57 percent of basketball-related revenue. Just a year later, those eight teams that drafted the ’06 letter were already complaining openly to Stern that it wasn’t working for them.

    In his podcast with Bill Simmons on Monday, union president Billy Hunter re-told a story about meeting with Stern during the 2007 NBA Finals in Cleveland, nine months after Stern received that letter. At the time, Hunter said, Stern talked about the need to roll back the players’ share and revealed his owners were already talking about locking out the union in 2011 if their demands for givebacks weren’t agreed to.

    That was two years before an economic crisis slammed the country and further hammered the bottom lines. Since then, the number of allies for the eight owners who wrote the letter has only increased, and it has shaped the dynamic in both talks with the union and with big-market owners.

    Robert Sarver of Phoenix and Dan Gilbert of Cleveland didn’t sign the letter in ’06, but they are now two of the biggest advocates for change in both revenue sharing and reducing player compensation. The Maloof family that owns the Kings was coming off six consecutive winning seasons and was used to selling every seat when the letter was authored. Now, they are in dire financial straits and are certainly looking for reform. In addition to the Bobcats and Hornets changing hands, the Wizards, Warriors, 76ers, Pistons and Hawks have also been sold in the past two years to groups who are expecting a new CBA to be more favorable to owners than the previous one. The Nets were also sold last season, but new owner Mikhail Prokhorov is not believed to be among those clamoring for change.

    Then look what has happened to the big-market teams. At the time of the last CBA, the Knicks, Celtics and Bulls were all experiencing some sort of down cycle. Even the Lakers were struggling, missing the playoffs in 2005 for the first time in 10 years. Now, all of those teams have returned to prominence and their revenues have soared as well, opening up a gulf of disparity in cash.

    When the Lakers agreed to a new local television deal worth several billion dollars last winter, it only further united their small-market competition in pressing for a makeover of both the revenue-sharing system and the split with the players.

    “That Lakers’ TV deal scared the hell out of everybody,” one league official said. “Everyone thought there is no way to compete with that. Then everyone started thinking that it wasn’t fair that they didn’t have to share it with the teams they’re playing against.”

    Pile all of those factors together and you have a faction of owners in 2006 that has turned into a majority in 2011. They are furious that the players are getting paid so much. They are furious that the NBA's current revenue sharing ($60 million a year) is worth less than half of a league like the NHL ($137 million). And they are trying to take advantage of throwing their new weight around.


    This is what deputy commissioner Adam Silver was referring to last week when he mentioned “robust” discussions about revenue sharing at recent owners’ meetings. This is also what Hunter has been referring to when he’s described a fracture within the ownership ranks.

    At the heart of this labor dispute is money, of course. But there’s that other classic element at play as well: power. And who has it among the ownership ranks is changing.

    http://espn.go.com/blog/truehoop/pos...s-took-control
    .

  20. #1060
    Raptors Republic Superstar heinz57's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    “That Lakers’ TV deal scared the hell out of everybody,” one league official said. “Everyone thought there is no way to compete with that. Then everyone started thinking that it wasn’t fair that they didn’t have to share it with the teams they’re playing against.”
    wait, what!?!?!? i always assumed that game day revenue including the gate and tv deals were shared with the visiting team. isn't that just common sense?!

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