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Amir Johnson wants to be the team leader, says team needs a "legit center"

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  • #61
    SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
    If we were getting 21 points and 5 rebounds a night from our PF position, I think we would all be pretty happy, I think we can agree that is a pretty good stat line at PF. Bring in a Tyson Chandler, draft a sick SF, start bayless, and trade calderon for a PG prospect to develop off the bench and we are stacked.
    Have Davis at C off the bench, and Amir at PF off the bench, but give all four of our bigs around 25 min. a night, gives us depth, and talent, and defense down low.
    "Defense wins championships."

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    • #62
      SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
      Lets look at dallas as an example: Dirk has never been known for his defense, he is a 7 footer but do they play him at C? No, he doesnt really rebound much better than bargnani either, what has made Dallas so good this year? They have a defensive center like Tyson Chandler and in the past they had true centers like Eric Dampier, they werent their to score only to defend and be big bodies and rebound. Bringing in a shot blocking defensive center, and moving Bargnani to the PF could solve our problems, I mean we drafted him, we developed him, he does have a lot of potential we need to put him in a position to succeed. Believe me I have been advocating trading him and calderon all year lol, even if he did get traded I wouldnt mind, but I think moving him to PF or off the bench is better for us.
      Dirk is a far, far better rebounder than Bargnani. On the offensive glass they are both terrible, but on defense, Dirk is good. He's grabbed 22% of the avaliable defensive rebounds throughout his career (20.8% this year.), while Bargnani has gotten only 15.3% (source); that's a massive 31% difference between the two of them.

      Also the Raptors have played at the 11th fastest pace this season, while the Mavs were 18th. That's why the gap in rebounding doesn't look so big.
      SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
      If we were getting 21 points and 5 rebounds a night from our PF position, I think we would all be pretty happy, I think we can agree that is a pretty good stat line at PF. Bring in a Tyson Chandler, draft a sick SF, start bayless, and trade calderon for a PG prospect to develop off the bench and we are stacked.
      Not when that 21 points are scored inefficiently, and said inefficient player has shown no indication at all that he'll stop being inefficient. Not when he's historically bad at rebounding and generally gives up more than he takes.

      To be blunt, Bargnani has done nothing to show that he deserves to still believed in. He could flourish as a 6th man, but it's simply not worth (probably) stunting Davis' and Amir's development for it. We won't feel stupid if we get good value for him. The guy's a square peg, the team's a round hole.

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      • #63
        SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
        If we were getting 21 points and 5 rebounds a night from our PF position.
        That is a great point when you are looking at what AB does . Amir is putting up 6.2 rebound and less than 9 points a game and he is regarded as a miracle worker in this board.

        AB needs to add One more rebound and his stat of 21-22 Pt a game and 5-6 rebound is quite respectable.

        News Alert for Amir Johnson :
        Instead of asking for KG to back you up as a center , Hit the gym and beef up because you better get used to playing center.

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        • #64
          DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
          So if what your saying is in fact correct. Lets assume Andrea played against weakest player and PF all season. Then basically what you are saying is Amir took a cheap shot at himself and Ed since according to you they were the ones playing the role of big man.
          How on earth do you figure that? Neither Amir nor Davis are much more than 220 lbs, yet they've been asked to defend guys like Dwight Howard, Brook Lopez, Andrew Bogut and all the biggest and strongest players in the league. Hell, Joey Dorsey, who's all of 6'7, started one game against Orlando so Bargnani wouldn't have to defend Dwight Howard.

          Asking these guys to do heavy lifting is fine. That's what they're there for. Asking them to do ALL the heavy lifting is unfair. Especially when they're not exactly built for it at this point in their careers.
          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
          Follow me on Twitter.

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          • #65
            SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
            Have Davis at C off the bench, and Amir at PF off the bench, but give all four of our bigs around 25 min. a night, gives us depth, and talent, and defense down low.
            It doesn't quite work that way. On paper, you can dole out minutes like that, but not in practice. Do you take guys out when they're playing well just to keep the minutes even? Do you force guys into situations that might not be best just to give them minutes? And why on earth would a Tyson Chandler-like center want to sign with Toronto knowing he's probably going to be only playing 25 mpg?

            Besides, Bargnani is a rhythm shooter. How is he going to react to fewer minutes? He's never performed well when asked to play a limited roll. And during the time he's on the floor, you're still going to have the same defensive problems you do now. You can't simply cover up his defensive liabilities by sticking him beside a good defensive player. He'll still be a problem on defensive rotations when he's supposed to be the one responsible for rotating. And he's still going to struggle one on one against a lot of the big men in the league.

            As I've been saying, I really don't understand the desperate need to try and figure out how to make it work with a player who's really not all that great to begin with.
            Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
            Follow me on Twitter.

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            • #66
              WhatWhat wrote: View Post
              Dirk is a far, far better rebounder than Bargnani. On the offensive glass they are both terrible, but on defense, Dirk is good. He's grabbed 22% of the avaliable defensive rebounds throughout his career (20.8% this year.), while Bargnani has gotten only 15.3% (source); that's a massive 31% difference between the two of them.

              Also the Raptors have played at the 11th fastest pace this season, while the Mavs were 18th. That's why the gap in rebounding doesn't look so big.

              Not when that 21 points are scored inefficiently, and said inefficient player has shown no indication at all that he'll stop being inefficient. Not when he's historically bad at rebounding and generally gives up more than he takes.

              To be blunt, Bargnani has done nothing to show that he deserves to still believed in. He could flourish as a 6th man, but it's simply not worth (probably) stunting Davis' and Amir's development for it. We won't feel stupid if we get good value for him. The guy's a square peg, the team's a round hole.
              I dont disagree with dirk being a better rebounder, but I dont think bargnani is inefficient offensively he shoots 44% from the field for his career, dirk shoots 47% from the field, and has much more talented guys around him that are drawing attention. Im not saying bargnani is better than Dirk by any means, but what I am saying is that Dirk does NOTHING besides score, I know you think he is a great rebounder, but 7 rebounds for a 7 footer is nothing that special with the kind of minutes he plays, we know he is not known for his defense. But Dallas has been able to flourish because they use Dirk for what he is a scorer, and get someone else do to the things that he doesnt do (Chandler, dampier). As for Davis and Amir's development, they have both played great and I agree they need to be developped but teams need depth, their are always injuries, until those injuries happen playing 4 bigs around 24-25 min. a game doesnt sound like stunting anyones growth, to me. Believe me I know what your saying, I have hated Bargnani too over the years, and blamed him for the raptors' defensive woes, but I think he needs to be used as a tool, used as what he is, a scorer, and the defense needs to be sured up with a real C.
              "Defense wins championships."

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              • #67
                Tim W. wrote: View Post
                It doesn't quite work that way. On paper, you can dole out minutes like that, but not in practice. Do you take guys out when they're playing well just to keep the minutes even? Do you force guys into situations that might not be best just to give them minutes? And why on earth would a Tyson Chandler-like center want to sign with Toronto knowing he's probably going to be only playing 25 mpg?

                Besides, Bargnani is a rhythm shooter. How is he going to react to fewer minutes? He's never performed well when asked to play a limited roll. And during the time he's on the floor, you're still going to have the same defensive problems you do now. You can't simply cover up his defensive liabilities by sticking him beside a good defensive player. He'll still be a problem on defensive rotations when he's supposed to be the one responsible for rotating. And he's still going to struggle one on one against a lot of the big men in the league.

                As I've been saying, I really don't understand the desperate need to try and figure out how to make it work with a player who's really not all that great to begin with.
                Tyson Chandler averages 27 min. a game for his career and this year as a maverick, and bargnani averages 30 min. for his career, I dont think that is a huge demotion. Anyway Im not trying to say we need Tyson Chandler (though he is a free agent, and it would be a perfect fit) I was using Chandler as an example of how using a score first PF who really is not known for his defense (dirk), and balancing it out with a shot blocking, rebounding C (dampier, chandler) can work well like it did in Dallas. Their is no need for desperation, the raptors are not desperate, we dont need to get rid of Bargnani to free up cap space, we have plenty of that, so their is no need to rush into trading him either.

                Imagine a lineup of:

                C- Chandler or some other defensive minded Center
                PF- Bargnani
                SF- J.Johnson or Top 3 draft choice
                SG- Derozan
                PG- Bayless

                I think this lineup will have lots of POP offensively, and will be a much better defensive lineup for us too, I think we need to flip Calderon though ... our bench will also be deep.

                C- Davis
                PF- Amir
                SF- James Johnson or Top 3 draft pick
                SG- Barbosa
                PG- Point Guard prospect to develop who is a defensive minded player

                I think that lineup has a chance, call me crazy.
                "Defense wins championships."

                Comment


                • #68
                  SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                  I dont disagree with dirk being a better rebounder, but I dont think bargnani is inefficient offensively he shoots 44% from the field for his career, dirk shoots 47% from the field, and has much more talented guys around him that are drawing attention. Im not saying bargnani is better than Dirk by any means, but what I am saying is that Dirk does NOTHING besides score, I know you think he is a great rebounder, but 7 rebounds for a 7 footer is nothing that special with the kind of minutes he plays, we know he is not known for his defense. But Dallas has been able to flourish because they use Dirk for what he is a scorer, and get someone else do to the things that he doesnt do (Chandler, dampier). As for Davis and Amir's development, they have both played great and I agree they need to be developped but teams need depth, their are always injuries, until those injuries happen playing 4 bigs around 24-25 min. a game doesnt sound like stunting anyones growth, to me. Believe me I know what your saying, I have hated Bargnani too over the years, and blamed him for the raptors' defensive woes, but I think he needs to be used as a tool, used as what he is, a scorer, and the defense needs to be sured up with a real C.
                  No, Bargs IS inefficient offensively. He had an ORat of 105 this season and an average of 104 over his career. That's well below league average. In comparison, Dirk is light years beyond Bargnani having just posted an ORat of 118. It is stupid and pointless to compare the two and continue to say, 'Well Dallas put these guys around Dirk and that worked out fine'. They are vastly different players. One is an yearly MVP candidate, the other might wind up a decent piece on a good team.

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                  • #69
                    Brasky wrote: View Post
                    No, Bargs IS inefficient offensively. He had an ORat of 105 this season and an average of 104 over his career. That's well below league average. In comparison, Dirk is light years beyond Bargnani having just posted an ORat of 118. It is stupid and pointless to compare the two and continue to say, 'Well Dallas put these guys around Dirk and that worked out fine'. They are vastly different players. One is an yearly MVP candidate, the other might wind up a decent piece on a good team.
                    I think if you ask GMs around the league about bargnani you will find that they have a much higher opinion of him than you do. He is at WORST a great trading chip, and at BEST a star PF. One year ago today we were talking about building the franchise around him, now we are talking about just getting rid of him, it doesnt need to be all or nothing, thats all im saying, we can keep him in a limited role, as just a pure offensive threat. He shoots 44% from scored 21+ points a game this year, and has improved ever year scoring, he added a lot of low post moves to his game, and is still improving, no matter how you wanna dish it out ORAT or whatever you cannot argue against him being a good scorer. We need to use him better.

                    Now if it was a situation where we are at the salary cap, and cant improve our team without trading him ... that would be difference trade him, but we are not in a position like that at all, we have almost 20 mill in free cap space, we have a top 3 pick, and we have a plethora of young talent on this team, no need to trade arguably (I know this will piss you guys off lol) our best player ... This isnt me talking, many people around the NBA actually believe ... he is our best player.
                    "Defense wins championships."

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                    • #70
                      SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                      I think if you ask GMs around the league about bargnani you will find that they have a much higher opinion of him than you do. He is at WORST a great trading chip, and at BEST a star PF. One year ago today we were talking about building the franchise around him, now we are talking about just getting rid of him, it doesnt need to be all or nothing, thats all im saying, we can keep him in a limited role, as just a pure offensive threat. He shoots 44% from scored 21+ points a game this year, and has improved ever year scoring, he added a lot of low post moves to his game, and is still improving, no matter how you wanna dish it out ORAT or whatever you cannot argue against him being a good scorer. We need to use him better.

                      Now if it was a situation where we are at the salary cap, and cant improve our team without trading him ... that would be difference trade him, but we are not in a position like that at all, we have almost 20 mill in free cap space, we have a top 3 pick, and we have a plethora of young talent on this team, no need to trade arguably (I know this will piss you guys off lol) our best player ... This isnt me talking, many people around the NBA actually believe ... he is our best player.
                      I think you have some very valid points in there, namely, Bargnani has more trade value than many fans and many analysts think.

                      I have been thinking more and more about trading him lately, however in the interest of fairness I'm going to start thinking about situations to keep him.

                      Check out the Trade Forum in a while.

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                        I think if you ask GMs around the league about bargnani you will find that they have a much higher opinion of him than you do. He is at WORST a great trading chip, and at BEST a star PF. One year ago today we were talking about building the franchise around him, now we are talking about just getting rid of him, it doesnt need to be all or nothing, thats all im saying, we can keep him in a limited role, as just a pure offensive threat. He shoots 44% from scored 21+ points a game this year, and has improved ever year scoring, he added a lot of low post moves to his game, and is still improving, no matter how you wanna dish it out ORAT or whatever you cannot argue against him being a good scorer. We need to use him better.

                        Now if it was a situation where we are at the salary cap, and cant improve our team without trading him ... that would be difference trade him, but we are not in a position like that at all, we have almost 20 mill in free cap space, we have a top 3 pick, and we have a plethora of young talent on this team, no need to trade arguably (I know this will piss you guys off lol) our best player ... This isnt me talking, many people around the NBA actually believe ... he is our best player.
                        I guess we'll likely see what trade value Bargnani does have this offseason.... if he is not moved can we assume it is 0? Or at the very least complete crap?

                        I agree that bargnani is at best a Star PF one day... however his 'at worst' is not a great trade chip, but rather a liability as a player and as a contract thereby not only hurting this team in the short term but also the long run.

                        He is also not our best player... the people who think this are Bargs boys and those who do not watch the Raptors play but simply look at PPG on the stat sheet. There are no shortage of so called 'pundits' and 'analysts' who do this as they can not be bothered to actual watch a bad team. This makes their life alot easier as who really cares what one of the worst teams in the league with no stars is doing anyways?

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                        • #72
                          SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                          Tyson Chandler averages 27 min. a game for his career and this year as a maverick, and bargnani averages 30 min. for his career, I dont think that is a huge demotion. Anyway Im not trying to say we need Tyson Chandler (though he is a free agent, and it would be a perfect fit) I was using Chandler as an example of how using a score first PF who really is not known for his defense (dirk), and balancing it out with a shot blocking, rebounding C (dampier, chandler) can work well like it did in Dallas. Their is no need for desperation, the raptors are not desperate, we dont need to get rid of Bargnani to free up cap space, we have plenty of that, so their is no need to rush into trading him either.

                          Imagine a lineup of:

                          C- Chandler or some other defensive minded Center
                          PF- Bargnani
                          SF- J.Johnson or Top 3 draft choice
                          SG- Derozan
                          PG- Bayless

                          I think this lineup will have lots of POP offensively, and will be a much better defensive lineup for us too, I think we need to flip Calderon though ... our bench will also be deep.

                          C- Davis
                          PF- Amir
                          SF- James Johnson or Top 3 draft pick
                          SG- Barbosa
                          PG- Point Guard prospect to develop who is a defensive minded player

                          I think that lineup has a chance, call me crazy.
                          The thing is, Bargnani is no Dirk Nowitzki, so already you're a poor copy of a plan that has actually had some mixed results. While Dallas has been to the Finals and had a lot of success, they've also been one of the most underachieving teams in the playoffs in the last ten years. 4 out of the last 7 years, despite winning an average of 57 games a year, Dallas has lost in the first round. That's the problem with teams that are not great defensively. They do great in the regular season but too often underachieve in the playoffs.

                          Again, I really don't see the point in jumping through hoops to try and make Bargnani work because he's simply not that good. If he was a perennial All-Star, like Dirk or Chris Bosh, I can see trying to make it work. But Bargnani isn't even an All-Star. Why go to so much trouble. Just trade the guy and let someone else deal with the problem.
                          Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                          Follow me on Twitter.

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                          • #73
                            GarbageTime wrote: View Post
                            I guess we'll likely see what trade value Bargnani does have this offseason.... if he is not moved can we assume it is 0? Or at the very least complete crap?

                            I agree that bargnani is at best a Star PF one day... however his 'at worst' is not a great trade chip, but rather a liability as a player and as a contract thereby not only hurting this team in the short term but also the long run.

                            He is also not our best player... the people who think this are Bargs boys and those who do not watch the Raptors play but simply look at PPG on the stat sheet. There are no shortage of so called 'pundits' and 'analysts' who do this as they can not be bothered to actual watch a bad team. This makes their life alot easier as who really cares what one of the worst teams in the league with no stars is doing anyways?
                            I think that if he doesnt get traded in the offseason we can just assume that his trade value is 0, because maybe our GM was not willing to part with him that easily, which may mean they have a high opinion. I also dont think that his contract is that bad, 10 mill for a guy who puts up those numbers is reasonable. Its not fair that we put all of the blame of our defensive woes and lack of success on one guy, this is a team sport, and I dont think we should trade him unless the right deal presents itself.

                            Like I said before we have almost 20 million in free cap space, that is more than enough to sign even a max player. We also have some very promising players that we can grow internally through, not to mention the top 3 pick.

                            Bargnani is a special talent you have to agree with me there, very few 7 footers can put the ball on the floor, and shoot like he can. No doubt he has to improve a lot (defensively and rebounding wise) but we should not rush into a deal and give up on a player that can be used in this league quite effectively given the right role.
                            "Defense wins championships."

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                            • #74
                              Tim W. wrote: View Post
                              The thing is, Bargnani is no Dirk Nowitzki, so already you're a poor copy of a plan that has actually had some mixed results. While Dallas has been to the Finals and had a lot of success, they've also been one of the most underachieving teams in the playoffs in the last ten years. 4 out of the last 7 years, despite winning an average of 57 games a year, Dallas has lost in the first round. That's the problem with teams that are not great defensively. They do great in the regular season but too often underachieve in the playoffs.

                              Again, I really don't see the point in jumping through hoops to try and make Bargnani work because he's simply not that good. If he was a perennial All-Star, like Dirk or Chris Bosh, I can see trying to make it work. But Bargnani isn't even an All-Star. Why go to so much trouble. Just trade the guy and let someone else deal with the problem.
                              This should really be posted on another forum probably, but im going to ask you in what way do you think we can trade him that is going to improve the team in a way, that using our financial flexibility and organic growth (and pick) cant.

                              You're right Dallas hasnt won a championship ... but I think that if we were able to achieve the success that they have had, we would be on the right track.

                              I agree defense wins championships, but sometimes the best defense is a good offense.
                              "Defense wins championships."

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                                This should really be posted on another forum probably, but im going to ask you in what way do you think we can trade him that is going to improve the team in a way, that using our financial flexibility and organic growth (and pick) cant.

                                You're right Dallas hasnt won a championship ... but I think that if we were able to achieve the success that they have had, we would be on the right track.

                                I agree defense wins championships, but sometimes the best defense is a good offense.
                                You're right. I'm moving this over to the Bargnani thread and will respond there.
                                Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
                                Follow me on Twitter.

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