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  • #91
    Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    In his second year he is averaging a double double per 36 minutes and 2.5 blocks. Keep in mind his rebounding numbers may be a little low due to playing with Blake who grabs so many boards. I'd be willing to put some money into a guy like that.

    Lets not do the Per 36 since that is such misleading statistic and many scrubs will look like Micheal Jordan when going based on that stat. The bottom line is that he is unproven and his current numbers are nothing to write home about:

    http://www.nba.com/playerfile/deandre_jordan/index.html

    The Key here is that we can not just keep in investing on players without really looking at what they are and hoping it will pay off. Prime example is AB !! We invested 5 years in developing AB and hoping he will be a great defender and ... and now, we are blowing it up and can not wait to ship him out of the town.

    The analogy for these sort of investment is like a stock broker that is just gambling on its entire portfolio. Sooner or later, he will end up broke just like we did after five years. In this league , you can go forward with blowing your team up every year, change focus.

    Investing in DeAndrea is not going to be cheap. He will probably want a 4-5 year deal worth 9-10 million a year.

    Is he worth it ? Maybe, but such a high risk.

    Saying there is no chance at these guys is a little pessimistic, we don't know know what will happen. Maybe the Mavs lose in the first and Cuban decides to blow it up

    That is wishful thinking. even if Cuban decide to blow it up he will not trade his starting center who has finally given them a defensive anchor down in the paint. He will move other players before he moves Tyson Chandler. If you read the report on Chandler in Dallas now, it is all positive and I don't think Cuban will ship him.
    Per 36 is a misleading stat for guys who play 10 minutes a game and never actually get the numbers they are listed at. If you look through Jordan's game logs, you'll find he has been putting up pretty solid numbers for much of the season and has had quite a few double doubles. He has been inconsistent certainly, but saying that his per 36 numbers are not a good indication of his ability doesn't make much sense to me. I think if BC is really in the market for a center, DeAndre is exactly the kind of guy that would fit well on this team. It is risky, but so is signing anyone to a big contract. Also, the Bargnani comparison is flawed, Jordan's problem is offense, not defense. Offense is easier to teach and to compensate for. Even if DeAndre never learns to score, he can still be a big part of this team with his shot blocking. I am honestly sort of torn about who I would rather sign if we had a choice between Oden and Jordan for the same money (9 mil a season). Oden is obviously the better player at the moment, but he is always injured and I don't think his ceiling any is higher than Jordan's is. Thing to keep in mind to is that if you want a decent 7 footer, you have to pay. Everyone and their mom wants an athletic, shot blocking, 7 foot center and you have to be willing to take a risk on a young prospect if you ever want to get one.
    Maybe your right that Chandler likely won't be available, I'm just saying that he is on the market this summer, and if we are really desperate for a center there is always a chance BC will make a grab for him. One thing you can count on with BC, he will take gambles.
    "Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival."

    -Churchill

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    • #92
      Maleko wrote: View Post
      I fail to understand or agree that ED and Amir being redundant is an issue. You of course do not want the same style PG since a change of pace is good and at times desireable, and perhaps at the C position for matchups, but at the PF position I for one like that they play a similar (although not identical) game.
      I didn't say it was a bad thing, actually I was saying having 2 players like that is a good 'problem' to have. That's why I said that if a good trade opportunity came along, it would be less of a loss to trade Johnson, since they would still have a similar PF (ie: defensive presence and hustle) in Davis.

      I have always agreed that Bargnani's D has been a liability, especially when on the floor with Calderon & DeRozan, who are equally terrible defensively. However, unlike a majority of people, I don't think that the only viable solution is to trade Bargnani. I think he is still young enough with more potential for growth/improvement in all facets of his game, including defense & rebounding. Even his biggest hater must admit that offensively he creates all sorts of matchup problems for the opposition, which helps him and his teammates to score more effectively. I am just trying to figure out a way to deal with him and motivate him to put more effort in. He has been a polarizing force all season, with RR readers either saying that he's an all-star or a bum that should be traded... I am trying to be objective and am seeing more gray area instead of just black or white... hence my thought to bring in a defensive C and let Bargnani be the #3 'big' as the 6th man off the bench.

      To relate my thought even further to the topic of this thread, I think Oden and Toronto would be the perfect fit. Most other teams would expect Oden to perform like a #1 overall pick should perform, including putting in significant minutes. In Toronto, he could play reduced minutes in a 3-big rotation with Davis & Bargnani, allowing him to ease back more slowly from surgery and put less wear-and-tear on his knees. With him playing less minutes than he likely would elsewhere and Bargnani reduced to 6th man, it could prove to rejuvinate/motivate both former #1 overall picks!
      Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Apr 15, 2011, 05:31 PM.

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      • #93
        hateslosing wrote: View Post
        Per 36 is a misleading stat for guys who play 10 minutes a game and never actually get the numbers they are listed at. If you look through Jordan's game logs, you'll find he has been putting up pretty solid numbers for much of the season and has had quite a few double doubles. He has been inconsistent certainly, but saying that his per 36 numbers are not a good indication of his ability doesn't make much sense to me. I think if BC is really in the market for a center, DeAndre is exactly the kind of guy that would fit well on this team. It is risky, but so is signing anyone to a big contract. Also, the Bargnani comparison is flawed, Jordan's problem is offense, not defense. Offense is easier to teach and to compensate for. Even if DeAndre never learns to score, he can still be a big part of this team with his shot blocking. I am honestly sort of torn about who I would rather sign if we had a choice between Oden and Jordan for the same money (9 mil a season). Oden is obviously the better player at the moment, but he is always injured and I don't think his ceiling any is higher than Jordan's is. Thing to keep in mind to is that if you want a decent 7 footer, you have to pay. Everyone and their mom wants an athletic, shot blocking, 7 foot center and you have to be willing to take a risk on a young prospect if you ever want to get one.
        Maybe your right that Chandler likely won't be available, I'm just saying that he is on the market this summer, and if we are really desperate for a center there is always a chance BC will make a grab for him. One thing you can count on with BC, he will take gambles.
        Well, I hope you are right about DeAndrea. I am sure that offering 9 million a year will land make the Clippers pass on him and get us our center for years to come. Clippers have Griffen and Eric Gorden to worry about and I think they are going to make a serious push for either CP3 or Howard or maybe even Williams on 2012 so they can not really match a 9 million a season offer.

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        • #94
          if we end up drafting derrick williams, which is a distinct plausibility. Then, we've got our center.

          If that is truly at the top of the list, then I don't see why we wouldn't be drafting williams if still available.


          I don't think D.J. is as legit as some think, if he continues to improve next season, i'll be convinced.

          Also, the odd man out there is pretty good, like all-star good, before he got hurt, wouldn't be surprised to hear his name pop up. especially because everyone is so impressed with Jordan, he could probably be snagged for less than usual for an all-star, with little to no competition.
          Last edited by LBF; Fri Apr 15, 2011, 06:46 PM.
          If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

          Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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          • #95
            Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
            The purpose of the thread is not who is a GREAT fit or if we should bring a DEFENSIVE Center or ... The purpose is to see who is available, who is really trade able and ...

            Memphis will easily pay Marc Gasol 10-12 Million to stay there. Why would he come to Toronto, a 22 win team and be a part of this so called rebuild that has failed over the last 5 years ??


            How much is the magical number for Marc and for Memphis that can make Gasol a Raptor ? Or Chandler from Mavs or Nene or ...

            None of these big names will come cheap to the struggling Toronto and will not be available.

            What I am most concern about is that if we do not get this " Defensive Center" are we going then to hear same excuse from Amir and DD next year after another miserable loosing season and embarrassing defensive display?
            i don't know by the sounds of it they are going to invest a lot in zach randolph, don't forget about mr. gay either.
            If Your Uncle Jack Helped You Off An Elephant, Would You Help Your Uncle Jack Off An Elephant?

            Sometimes, I like to buy a book on CD and listen to it, while reading music.

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            • #96
              LBF wrote: View Post
              if we end up drafting derrick williams, which is a distinct plausibility. Then, we've got our center.

              If that is truly at the top of the list, then I don't see why we wouldn't be drafting williams if still available.


              I don't think D.J. is as legit as some think, if he continues to improve next season, i'll be convinced.

              Also, the odd man out there is pretty good, like all-star good, before he got hurt, wouldn't be surprised to hear his name pop up. especially because everyone is so impressed with Jordan, he could probably be snagged for less than usual for an all-star, with little to no competition.
              I don't get it man, are you saying Derrick Williams for C? I am not seeing that.

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              • #97
                If Amir doesn't improve a lick from here on out and brings what he brought this year for the rest of his contract then it was a sound investment. No where do I say I have bold expectations for Amir Johnson. In fact I've said I suspect he could end up relegated to the bench in a 6th man role. If he keeps up his play then I am happy.

                So basically what your saying is that based on his play this year he has earned the right to be a raptor, but Andrea hasn’t?

                He says that at the end of every season.

                We live Canada he’s learning from the best who needs change? Sometimes I feel people take words WAY out of context. If Amir said he wanted to become an all star next year the next minute a thread would be created … titled Amir from Scrub to All Star Bang!


                He only cares about scoring. You can't "learn" desire. Jay pretty much came out and said you can't earn minutes without it so Bargnani and the Raptors are in quite the dilemma if everything stays as is.

                How do you measure a person’s desire? If somebody scores 20+ ppg doesn’t that indicate they have burning desire to score the basketball.

                At what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?[/QUOTE]

                Just a little something to throw out there Larry Bird entered the league as a 23 year old just saying.
                Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Fri Apr 15, 2011, 07:08 PM.

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                • #98
                  DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                  Just a little something to throw out there Larry Bird entered the league as a 23 year old just saying.
                  So what's your point? And for reality sake, I believe he was 21. Drafted in 1978, bday is in december, born in 1956. Unless I am having a total brain fart that tells me Bird was 21 when the season started, turning 22 mid-season, and by both accounts not 23. Either way, still don't see what the age Bird started playing at is relevent to whatever your argument is.

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                  • #99
                    no way we get deandre jordan but if we dont get the number 1 or 2 pick we're looking at kanter or valanciunas
                    So it's a good situation to be in if you're the raptors

                    Comment


                    • Don't jump the gun on a vet C this summer unless its a stop gap like Nazr M. Ditch the bum Bitchnani for prospects, start Amir and Ed, tank one more year to score big in the 2012 draft and then go after your impact Center. By that time we'll have the up and coming pieces to start competing.

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                      • DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                        So basically what your saying is that based on his play this year he has earned the right to be a raptor, but Andrea hasn’t?
                        No, I am not saying that at all. No one has "the right to be a Raptor", people get the "privilege of being a Raptor". By the sounds of Bargnani's coach, a bunch of his teammates and the media that privilege might get revoked...

                        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                        We live Canada he’s learning from the best who needs change? Sometimes I feel people take words WAY out of context. If Amir said he wanted to become an all star next year the next minute a thread would be created … titled Amir from Scrub to All Star Bang!
                        But Amir isn't making empty promises, Bargnani is and so I fail to see your point.

                        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                        How do you measure a person’s desire? If somebody scores 20+ ppg doesn’t that indicate they have burning desire to score the basketball.
                        You don't measure desire, you observe desire. Based on the majority of people who frequent this place and based on the majority of the media and Bargnani's own coach it sort of sounds like we're all observing something different than you are.

                        DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
                        Just a little something to throw out there Larry Bird entered the league as a 23 year old just saying.
                        Alright. Cool. Does that have anything to do with what were are talking about?

                        Oh and I've was meaning to ask you, at what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?

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                        • CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
                          Your points about Johnson are all valid and I don't disagree. I only meant that I didn't think his game overall was impactful enough to be considered the Raptors' MVP.

                          The more I think about it, the fact that Johnson, DeRozan and Bargani could all be considered and dismissed just as easily for team MVP, goes to show just how desperate this team is for a true impact player!
                          It's all relative. Does ANY 22 win team really have an MVP? The problem with both Bargnani and DeRozan as MVPs is that they had little to no positive impact on the defensive end, and really didn't make their teammates much better on the offensive end. Bargnani's ability to score certainly helped the spacing, but he isn't much of a passer. I think the two player's you'd choose from for team MVP would be Amir and Calderon. Those were the only two Raptors that seemed to consistently have a positive impact on the court throughout the season, and the numbers back that up.
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                          • anyone up for yao ming
                            ya dun noe

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                            • we should draft enes kanter
                              ya dun noe

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                              • Apollo wrote: View Post

                                Oh and I've was meaning to ask you, at what point do you go from optimistic that he will suddenly change to certain nothing will change?
                                IMO
                                He should be able to play his natural position
                                The team should try finding a true center
                                They should give him a fair chance to build chemistry with one group for an extended period not multiple groups for short periods
                                Finally if none of the above works then we can be fairly confident nothing will change

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