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Thread: Available legitimate Center for Toronto

  1. #61
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    lol out of all people amir johnson.... amir johnson... Since when did his opinion matter? We basically received this player from milwaukee for free. All of a sudden its becoming rational thought to trade our former number one pick who is just about to enter his prime because AMIR JOHNSHON out of all people thinks we need a center. Amir should be more worried about his ass being shipped out because Bargnani made it pretty clear his natural position is PF.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    So you're going to overlook the fact that he is one of the best players on the team and immediately move to something completely irrelevant like how he became a Raptor? The fact that this is the fourth page of this thread should tell you that you are in a minority when it comes to who cares about Amir Johnson's opinion.

    Bargnani made it clear that he's not willing to hustle on defense or the glass; no matter what position he plays it's not going to affect effort. Jay made it clear that unless Bargnani changes his ways he's going to lose minutes... Probably to guys like Amir Johnson. Colangelo didn't make it clear what Bargnani's future holds.

  3. #63
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    How is that irrelivant... Im assuming youve been a steady rapors republic player for many years. If I all of a sudden I came on and posted that we need a new administrator because the current one isant dong a good job how would you react? wouldn't you be offended that a new kid on the block is making some pretty bold statements especially since they havent proven anything yet themeselves. Also, from a francise standpoint a lot more time and effort has been invested in developing Andrea and all off a sudden you kiss all that goodbye?

    Its much easier to cut ties with a player you've only had around for a year or two and who is not considered a focal point.

    He's never played alongside a legitamite center and until that happens we can't assume it will have no impact on his game.

  4. #64
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    Default Quick Points

    • If anybody said that I would be offended but that doesn't necessarily mean they would be wrong.
    • Amir has more seniority than most guys on the team and has been in the league longer than Bargnani.
    • No one on the Raptors has proven them self. The only playoff time Bargnani ever saw he stunk it up.
    • Guys get traded all the time. Is it best to continue to waste effort into a guy who isn't willing to defend or rebound solely because they've already invested five years? Why not trade him for somebody who fits their plans more effectively? Why not do it while he's still young enough to provide hope to some other GM.
    • They're in year one of a rebuild. Bargnani is no more deep rooted than anyone else on this team.
    • Playing along side a legitimate center would certainly help him but it's easier for the Raptors to trade him to a team with one than it is for the Raptors to make a trade to acquire one. Not to mention they have enough PFs already.

  5. #65
    Raptors Republic Rookie webcrawler89's Avatar
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    Amir Johnson is from the Detroit Pistons Defensive University of "Get the F*** outta my House". Don't think he didn't learn anything from Rasheed Wallace, or Ben Wallace, Antonio McDyess or even Tayshaun Prince. Just because he didn't get play time in Detroit or Milwaukee is not akin to saying he's not a good player or that his opinions don't matter. He has a very valid point too. If you're 7ft center doesn't anchor your defense, then who does?

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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    lol out of all people amir johnson.... amir johnson... Since when did his opinion matter? We basically received this player from milwaukee for free. All of a sudden its becoming rational thought to trade our former number one pick who is just about to enter his prime because AMIR JOHNSHON out of all people thinks we need a center. Amir should be more worried about his ass being shipped out because Bargnani made it pretty clear his natural position is PF.
    And Demar.

    Quote webcrawler89 wrote: View Post
    I like the idea of picking up Greg Oden for the following reasons:

    He's still only 23 ie a year younger than Andrew Bynum. If the Lakers can continue to have faith in Bynum, even though Oden has played less, there's no reason not to believe he won't be able to ever play in the future.

    Although microfracture surgery takes a long time to heal, and players can end up not being the same afterwards (Webber), it's come a long way in the past decade, and is much more effective than it used to be (see Stoudamire).

    Bone cells in the human body are the only cells that, when repaired with scar tissue, are stronger then they were previously. Also, it's been noted that microfracture surgery, if performed on younger people, are more effective because the body is better able to heal at that age.

    Greg Oden has skill to play in the paint, play as a centre. Even if he doesn't put up high numbers, this guy is a defensive power akin to Dwight Howard (obvious diff being his injuries.)

    Personally, I think a lot of people are stupid to overlook Oden at this age. All he needs is time for his body to heal properly, and then possibly an atheltic Trainer to get him to move and contort his body in proper ways without causing further damage (ie as Nash does). Heck, putting two braces on his legs would help keep him from further injuries. But make no mistake that he's got immense talent, and personally I think, with his stock so low, even if it still seems like a risk, it is a fantastic time to make a move for him because the dividends would pay off within a maximum 2 years or so.

    That's just my attempt to make a case for him.
    The only problem here is that we would have to pay about $10M per year to pry him away. Portland has already stated they will extend the $8.8M QO, if his rehab is going to plan. If they don't extend that says A LOT about how he is/is not recovering from his surgeries. $10M is a lot to a guy who a) hasn't played much at all, and b) may not play much at all.

    I love his talent and potential, but am scared off by his injury history.

  7. #67
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Well my point is you don’t publically blame the big dog. I don’t think that will earn Amir any cookie points.
    Oh yea another very good point. I totally forgot that Amir has been around longer than Andrea. Thanks for pointing that out. Amir is perfect example of why Toronto shouldn’t give up on Bargnani. Big men develop at slower pace then others. If you looked at Amir’s career before this year people would laugh at the notion Toronto would keep Amir over Andrea. Some still do laugh at that notion.
    Who can they add that is number one willing to come here and b at a cheaper salary that would be more efficient or effective than bargnani? Assume 25 and 8 next year .

    Bargnani is on pretty much the face of the franchise I don’t know you get more deep rooted than that.
    Sure its easy to trade a number pick entering the prime of his career to another team but its also very stupid and much more risky.
    Yea its just so happens he is the most skilled pf out of the bunch not his fault.

  8. #68
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    lol out of all people amir johnson.... amir johnson... Since when did his opinion matter? We basically received this player from milwaukee for free. All of a sudden its becoming rational thought to trade our former number one pick who is just about to enter his prime because AMIR JOHNSHON out of all people thinks we need a center. Amir should be more worried about his ass being shipped out because Bargnani made it pretty clear his natural position is PF.
    Who cares how each player was acquired? What difference does it make? All that matters is how they performed and there's a common belief that Amir was the MVP for the season for the Raptors. Bargnani certainly had some great games, but overall, Amir was more productive, more consistent and is the player that many feel would be the more likely player who can contribute to a winning team. Bargnani is certainly the more skilled offensive player, but he's simply too flawed.
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  9. #69
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Who cares how each player was acquired? What difference does it make? All that matters is how they performed and there's a common belief that Amir was the MVP for the season for the Raptors. Bargnani certainly had some great games, but overall, Amir was more productive, more consistent and is the player that many feel would be the more likely player who can contribute to a winning team. Bargnani is certainly the more skilled offensive player, but he's simply too flawed.
    lol where are you hearing these things? Amir was our MVP? do you have any sources to back this up? If we even had an mvp it must clearly be between Demar and Andrea. Amir has been around longer than Andrea yet Andrea has had by far the more productive career up until and including this year. So although Amir may be able to add some value to a winning team as a key bench and hustle player Andrea has the potential to contibute much more to a winning team than just hustle and heart.
    And like you said earlier Toronto is no rush since we wont be winning in the next few years. So why bother trading Andrea let him develope with the young players. Play his at C spot for now to build chemistry with Ed then when a good center is available grab him and move andrea to his natural position.
    Last edited by DunkinDerozan; Fri Apr 15th, 2011 at 04:42 PM.

  10. #70
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    TIM W:
    Who cares how each player was acquired? What difference does it make? All that matters is how they performed and there's a common belief that Amir was the MVP for the season for the Raptors. Bargnani certainly had some great games, but overall, Amir was more productive, more consistent and is the player that many feel would be the more likely player who can contribute to a winning team. Bargnani is certainly the more skilled offensive player, but he's simply too flawed.


    I have no issue accepting complaints about Bargnani's game, but to do so with the argument being Johnson as the Raptors' MVP??? Come on, for most of the season Johnson was invisible on offense and couldn't keep himself on the court long enough to impact it at either end, due to his ongoing foul trouble! From what I read throughout the season, most RR readers preferred Davis to Johnson as the #1 PF... no way a #2 PF is your MVP!

    For me, Amir & Bayless & Barbosa are the 3 players at the top of the 'trade bait' heap, given the fact that they are all redundant. I agree that the Raptors should target a good defensive anchor type of C, but I'd rather have a 3-big rotation of Davis-Bargnani-anchor than Davis-Johnson-anchor, as it gives the Raps more rotation options and different looks.

  11. #71
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Well my point is you don’t publically blame the big dog. I don’t think that will earn Amir any cookie points.
    Oh yea another very good point. I totally forgot that Amir has been around longer than Andrea. Thanks for pointing that out. Amir is perfect example of why Toronto shouldn’t give up on Bargnani. Big men develop at slower pace then others. If you looked at Amir’s career before this year people would laugh at the notion Toronto would keep Amir over Andrea. Some still do laugh at that notion.
    Who can they add that is number one willing to come here and b at a cheaper salary that would be more efficient or effective than bargnani? Assume 25 and 8 next year .

    Bargnani is on pretty much the face of the franchise I don’t know you get more deep rooted than that.
    Sure its easy to trade a number pick entering the prime of his career to another team but its also very stupid and much more risky.
    Yea its just so happens he is the most skilled pf out of the bunch not his fault.
    The Raptors don't have a "big dog". They have a bunch of players, most of whom were forced into larger rolls than they would normally play.

    As for your theory that Amir Johnson having played in the league longer means that Bargnani still has lot of room for growth, you do realize that Bargnani has played more than twice as many minutes in the league as Amir, right? It's hard to argue that Bargnani hasn't had a chance to develop when he's played so many minutes. Big men tend to take so long to develop because they don't get much playing time. It's not lack of playing time that has prevented Bargnani from learning defense or rebounding.

    And why would we assume 25 and 8 from him? There's literally no evidence whatsoever that supports this claim. Especially the 8 rebounds. You might as well claim that we assume that Amir will average 15 and 12.

    Lastly, your point about Bargnani being the most skilled PF is incorrect. He's the most skilled OFFENSIVELY. I don't understand why we keep having to say this. Davis and Amir are much more well rounded players than Bargnani is. Who is a more skilled player, Jason Kapono or Shane Battier? Kapono certainly is a better scorer, but Battier is a better overall player.
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  12. #72
    Raptors Republic Rookie webcrawler89's Avatar
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    Ok so when you move Andrea to his "natural position" at PF? what happens do Ed? Amir? THey just come off the bench or get shipped off?

    Seriously, fans like you are what keeps this city down. I'd rather take a risk on having a good TEAM as opposed to holding on to one single Good player.

  13. #73
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Well my point is you don’t publically blame the big dog. I don’t think that will earn Amir any cookie points.
    Oh yea another very good point. I totally forgot that Amir has been around longer than Andrea. Thanks for pointing that out. Amir is perfect example of why Toronto shouldn’t give up on Bargnani. Big men develop at slower pace then others. If you looked at Amir’s career before this year people would laugh at the notion Toronto would keep Amir over Andrea. Some still do laugh at that notion.
    Who can they add that is number one willing to come here and b at a cheaper salary that would be more efficient or effective than bargnani? Assume 25 and 8 next year .

    Bargnani is on pretty much the face of the franchise I don’t know you get more deep rooted than that.
    Sure its easy to trade a number pick entering the prime of his career to another team but its also very stupid and much more risky.
    Yea its just so happens he is the most skilled pf out of the bunch not his fault.
    "Sense of entitlement" is one of the biggest detriments on not only the NBA but on society as a whole today.

  14. #74
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    Well my point is you don’t publically blame the big dog. I don’t think that will earn Amir any cookie points.
    Oh yea another very good point. I totally forgot that Amir has been around longer than Andrea. Thanks for pointing that out. Amir is perfect example of why Toronto shouldn’t give up on Bargnani. Big men develop at slower pace then others. If you looked at Amir’s career before this year people would laugh at the notion Toronto would keep Amir over Andrea. Some still do laugh at that notion.
    Who can they add that is number one willing to come here and b at a cheaper salary that would be more efficient or effective than bargnani? Assume 25 and 8 next year .

    Bargnani is on pretty much the face of the franchise I don’t know you get more deep rooted than that.
    Sure its easy to trade a number pick entering the prime of his career to another team but its also very stupid and much more risky.
    Yea its just so happens he is the most skilled pf out of the bunch not his fault.
    Hpw the hell do you assume 25 and 8 next year from Bargnani? If he can improve his shooting % then perhaps he gets to 25, but I don't see him hitting 8 boards, especially since he regressed this year from last year (in blocks too)! Unless of course you mean 8 head slaps per game. It would be a stretch to get down to that but perhaps possible.
    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    lol where are you hearing these things? Amir was our MVP? do you have any sources to back this up? If we even had an mvp it must clearly be between Demar and Andrea. Amir has been around longer than Andrea yet Andrea has had by far the more productive career up until and including this year. So although Amir may be able to add some value to a winning team as a key bench and hustle player Andrea has the potential to contibute much more to a winning team than just hustle and heart.
    And like you said earlier Toronto is no rush since we wont be winning in the next few years. So why bother trading Andrea let him develope with the young players. Play his at C spot for now to build chemistry with Ed then when a good center is available grab him and move andrea to his natural position.
    And do what with Ed?

  15. #75
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Well, ah, they should trade Ed of course. The most important thing in basketball is 21PPG.

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    I think a number of the posters fail to understand the importance of a quality defensive Center.

    Question: Would any of you take a temporary stop-gap like Magloire until we could sign a legit starting C?

  17. #77
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    Magloire isn't a stop gap. He would be lucky to make it through camp.

  18. #78
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    "Sense of entitlement" is one of the biggest detriments on not only the NBA but on society as a whole today.
    Couldn't agree more... the main reason I have been vocal about trading Ford, Jack and now Bayless!

    As for Bargnani, rather than giving up on him, here's my alternative thought:
    - bring in a defensive C that can start the game to help set the tone and be used in close game situations when the Raps need to focus on D.
    - let Bargnani come off the bench as the 6th man, to play much higher % of his minutes against opposition 2nd stringers, allowing his offensive advantages to be even greater and his defensive disadvantages be lessened
    - Amir could potentially be used as trade bait, to go with a 3-big rotation of Davis, new defensive C and Bargnani (possibly with Evans retained as 4th big)

    RATIONALE:
    1) Amir @ $4.5-5M per season would likely fetch as much or more than Bargnani on the trade market and the Raps would be dealing a redundant player (they already have Davis for the same position/role)
    2) Bargnani's sense of entitlement would be destroyed and *HOPEFULLY* the light bulb would go on and losing his starting job would serve to motivate him more consistently, especially on defense and on the glass, in an attempt to win back the starting job (I could see Bargnani being a legit threat for 6th-man-of-the-year award next season)
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Fri Apr 15th, 2011 at 05:02 PM.

  19. #79
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I have no issue accepting complaints about Bargnani's game, but to do so with the argument being Johnson as the Raptors' MVP??? Come on, for most of the season Johnson was invisible on offense and couldn't keep himself on the court long enough to impact it at either end, due to his ongoing fould trouble! From what I read throughout the season, most RR readers preferred Davis to Johnson as the #1 PF...

    For me, Amir & Bayless & Barbosa are the 3 players at the top of the 'trade bait' heap, given the fact that they are all redundant. I agree that the Raptors should target a good defensive anchor type of C, but I'd rather have a 3-big rotation of Davis-Bargnani-anchor than Davis-Johnson-anchor, as it gives the Raps more rotation options and different looks.
    I'm certainly not the only one who picked Amir as the team's MVP at the All-Star break. You're also exaggerating a fair bit. Amir certainly had his fair share of troubles, especially at the beginning of the season, staying on the floor, but the guy averaged nearly 30 mpg in January and February (while injured), and the only reason he didn't continue to do that is because the coaches he sprained his ankle. And he kept playing anyway until he could barely walk, anymore.

    As for his offense, I noticed him plenty. No, he wasn't like Bargnani, but he was a major force on the offensive boards and was a brilliant pick and roll partner will Calderon. And while Bargnani is obviously a much more superior shooter, Amir is far better at moving without the ball and knowing where to go to get the pass. Plus, the only reason he's not 4th in the league in FG% is because he got hurt.

    And while Amir didn't make a huge impact on the offensive end, he didn't make a negative impact. Bargnani certainly was the team's best scorer, but couple that with the fact he was a liability on the defensive end pretty much nullifies his offensive impact.
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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I'm certainly not the only one who picked Amir as the team's MVP at the All-Star break. You're also exaggerating a fair bit. Amir certainly had his fair share of troubles, especially at the beginning of the season, staying on the floor, but the guy averaged nearly 30 mpg in January and February (while injured), and the only reason he didn't continue to do that is because the coaches he sprained his ankle. And he kept playing anyway until he could barely walk, anymore.

    As for his offense, I noticed him plenty. No, he wasn't like Bargnani, but he was a major force on the offensive boards and was a brilliant pick and roll partner will Calderon. And while Bargnani is obviously a much more superior shooter, Amir is far better at moving without the ball and knowing where to go to get the pass. Plus, the only reason he's not 4th in the league in FG% is because he got hurt.

    And while Amir didn't make a huge impact on the offensive end, he didn't make a negative impact. Bargnani certainly was the team's best scorer, but couple that with the fact he was a liability on the defensive end pretty much nullifies his offensive impact.

    Your points about Johnson are all valid and I don't disagree. I only meant that I didn't think his game overall was impactful enough to be considered the Raptors' MVP.

    The more I think about it, the fact that Johnson, DeRozan and Bargani could all be considered and dismissed just as easily for team MVP, goes to show just how desperate this team is for a true impact player!

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