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Thread: Anyone at MLSE paying attention? Even GSW can get their act together on GM

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Anyone at MLSE paying attention? Even GSW can get their act together on GM

    The Golden State Warriors announced Thursday
    that the team will retain general manager and executive vice president of
    basketball operations Larry Riley.

    Riley, 66, has been the general manager of the team since May 11, 2009. He
    came to the organization in 2006 as an assistant coach and was named assistant
    general manager in November of 2008.

    His team posted a record of just 26-56 in his first season as general manager,
    but the team improved by 10 games this past season to go 36-46 and finish 12th
    overall in the Western Conference.

    "I think Larry has done a great job and I've been very pleased with his
    performance," said Warriors owner Joe Lacob. "He's had a vision since he took
    the job less than two years ago and he has certainly helped move this team in
    an extremely positive direction in terms of our culture, cap management and
    roster additions."

    Also on Thursday, the team announced that it has named Bob Myers as assistant
    general manager and vice president of basketball operations.

    Myers, 36, joins the Warriors after spending the previous five years with
    Wasserman Media Group in Los Angeles. He represented close to 20 NBA players
    at Wasserman Media Group in his position as managing executive.



    Read more NBA news and insight: http://www.hoopsworld.com/TheWireSto...#ixzz1JbiZdTiL
    Golden State has been one of the worst run franchises for the better part of 2 decades (to be semi-fair though they do have a new owner now). Despite this they are still end rumours of leadership by announcing their GM will stay.

    How does this relate to the Raptors? Because they just became the team with the worst ownership in the league - that includes Heisley. Thank you Teachers and bean counters.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I don't think this is a new revelation, it was just never tested and proven before now and so it's not been publicized. The teachers want out, they'll eventually find a deal and hopefully everything is good after that. This lockout couldn't have happened at a better time for the Raptors. If not for the lockout the Raptors would enter free agency with no general manager. By the time MLSE got their ducks in a row the best free agents could be gone, the Raptors' free agents could be gone, the Raptors' #1 could be waiting in limbo already building a highly negative opinion of his new bosses, the best coaching options could be gone, Triano could be gone, Colangelo could be gone and the best GM options available could be gone.

    To all those hoping Colangelo leaves, this is the worst case scenario. You don't stonewall until June 30th and then maybe start looking for someone new. That's completely idiotic in my opinion for the above mentioned reasons. That's got horrible disaster and wasted upcoming season(s) written all over it. The proper way to get rid of a GM is to either fire the guy during the season or have consensus that it's time to move on. One guy on the board with no professional sports management background holding up the process looks horribly embarrassing on the Raptors. One would think a large group of teachers could do the math on this one...

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Golden State has been one of the worst run franchises for the better part of 2 decades (to be semi-fair though they do have a new owner now). Despite this they are still end rumours of leadership by announcing their GM will stay.

    How does this relate to the Raptors? Because they just became the team with the worst ownership in the league - that includes Heisley. Thank you Teachers and bean counters.
    Not clear on how this relates to the Raptors' situation. Golden State was sold to an ownership group headed by Lacob. This closed November 10, 2010.
    http://www.nba.com/warriors/news/war...te_111210.html

    Meanwhile, MLSE is in the middle of a potential sale:
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stor...le-report.html

    If you're in the middle of a sale process, its very rare to start signing senior leadership to long term deals. Should be obvious, but a new owner wants to drive this process themselves (even if they ultimately come to the same decision). Making long-term commitments in the middle of a sale process isn't wise.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    To me, a rebuilding team that's going to potentially lose an entire off-season of great opportunities at a very critical moment makes that team less marketable than having a two time Executive of the Year locked up for two to three more years.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie Liston's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    To me, a rebuilding team that's going to potentially lose an entire off-season of great opportunities at a very critical moment makes that team less marketable than having a two time Executive of the Year locked up for two to three more years.
    Won't be able to sign or trade players during the lockout.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    No but when it ends everyone else will be able to do that except the Raptors as it stands right now. If the owners and PA surprisingly come to an agreement at their next meeting in early July the Raptors are caught with their pants down.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Liston wrote: View Post
    Not clear on how this relates to the Raptors' situation. Golden State was sold to an ownership group headed by Lacob. This closed November 10, 2010.
    http://www.nba.com/warriors/news/war...te_111210.html

    Meanwhile, MLSE is in the middle of a potential sale:
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/stor...le-report.html

    If you're in the middle of a sale process, its very rare to start signing senior leadership to long term deals. Should be obvious, but a new owner wants to drive this process themselves (even if they ultimately come to the same decision). Making long-term commitments in the middle of a sale process isn't wise.
    The point is the Raptors are officially the most dysfunctional franchise in the league with the worst ownership in the league. That is a pretty strong (and accurate statement in my opinion) given some of the owners out there (Heisley and Sterling come immediately to mind).

    The flip side to your argument is with no leadership at the helm (especially a 2x EOY and one of most respected in the league outside Toronto) the franchise falls further behind in hopes of becoming relevant again (see Apollo's comments), weakens the fanbase which in turn will cost sponsorships, creates a negative impression of the franchise which will be difficult to change regardless of old or new ownership (which is already a major issue) all of which negatively impacts the value of the franchise.

    This thinking is extremely short sighted and will only hurt fans, possible new owners, and the Teachers.

    When you are selling a house that is a dump you're going to have a tough time. Take a little money and invest in the house with a new bathroom, kitchen, paint and all of a sudden the dump doesn't look so bad. The seller gets their money back from renovations plus extra. It is all optics - right now the Raps are a dump - THANK YOU TEACHERS OF ONTARIO!

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    A good analogy of what could happen is this: You're selling your house and it's the middle of winter. You want to make it as easy on the potential new owners as possible so you go ahead and cut the electricity off in anticipation that they're going to buy the house and of course want to set up their own utilities account. Meanwhile it's 20 below outside and your pipes freeze, which results thousands of dollars in damages. Suddenly your house that's on the block doesn't look as appealing and you or the new owner, if he's still interested, needs to waste lots of time and money getting everything in order.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Liston, if I am a prospective purchaser on a $1.5 billion deal I am not concerned about a $20mm contract. On a deal this large, that is just over 1% of the value of my purchase price and is immaterial to the operations of MLSE. I posted on another thread that, based on my experience with private equity guys, this has less to do with business and more to do with the Teacher's guys just throwing a hissy fit and wanting their own way. If you ever have a two-year old, then you know what it's like dealing with these guys.

    On the other hand, I am not as concerned as some other fans. Colangelo is a pro and will do a proper job until his time is up. He won't screw anyone over. If he does leave, the team will have plenty of time to find someone else given the pending lockout.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie webcrawler89's Avatar
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    I would keep BryCo just because he's made some good moves recently, very quickly, to put this team on a track to developing. Think about it, within one year, he's gone from trading Bosh and whatever attempts he made to surround him with a contending team to putting together a young group of players to play and grow together, and possibly having a lot of salary cap space this summer (although, obviously, we'll see how that goes with the CBA agreements).

    He definitely had a plan for the last four years he was here, which was to surround Bosh with players to make and play in the playoffs. It didn't work well, he made mistakes, but he always worked to fix those mistakes. I have no reason to believe that's easy being a GM in the league, especially when every year at least half of the teams in the NBA don't make the playoffs, and even the ones in the playoffs, only a few are contenders.
    Last edited by webcrawler89; Fri Apr 15th, 2011 at 03:53 PM.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    A good analogy of what could happen is this: You're selling your house and it's the middle of winter. You want to make it as easy on the potential new owners as possible so you go ahead and cut the electricity off in anticipation that they're going to buy the house and of course want to set up their own utilities account. Meanwhile it's 20 below outside and your pipes freeze, which results thousands of dollars in damages. Suddenly your house that's on the block doesn't look as appealing and you or the new owner, if he's still interested, needs to waste lots of time and money getting everything in order.
    I don't think this is a good analogy at all. You are talking about cutting of a necessity that a buyer will reopen the minute they move in anyways... it will also make the house incredibly uncomfortable when showing to intended buyers. It also risks extreme damage to the product itself. BC is not a necessity, they may not want him there and him not being under contract (or any GM for that matter) will not negatively impact the team, atleast in the short term. Others will fill in for him temporarily... and its hard to argue anyone could do a worse job at this point.

    I think its more like setting up a new source of electricity that costs more but you think is better. The problem is the potential buyers may not and it may actually detract from the sale as it will cost them to remove it and hook up their intended source.

    If BC is resigned his salary is going to be on the books for potential buyers and will be a guaranteed costs. While it may be a small portion of the total value of the sale, it is still an extremely high cost (approx 5 mil a year is nothing to scoff at). When you sell business you want as few guaranteed costs as possible as it will look more enticing for potential buyers. Its why you often see teams gutting their rosters before they sell the team.... the new owners will prefer to take on costs of their own choosing, not long term contracts the previous owner(s) were responsible for.

    It all comes down to what the buyer wants... but when you leave more room for that person to work with when they take over, you likely going to get more interest.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The point is the Raptors are officially the most dysfunctional franchise in the league with the worst ownership in the league. That is a pretty strong (and accurate statement in my opinion) given some of the owners out there (Heisley and Sterling come immediately to mind).

    The flip side to your argument is with no leadership at the helm (especially a 2x EOY and one of most respected in the league outside Toronto) the franchise falls further behind in hopes of becoming relevant again (see Apollo's comments), weakens the fanbase which in turn will cost sponsorships, creates a negative impression of the franchise which will be difficult to change regardless of old or new ownership (which is already a major issue) all of which negatively impacts the value of the franchise.

    This thinking is extremely short sighted and will only hurt fans, possible new owners, and the Teachers.

    When you are selling a house that is a dump you're going to have a tough time. Take a little money and invest in the house with a new bathroom, kitchen, paint and all of a sudden the dump doesn't look so bad. The seller gets their money back from renovations plus extra. It is all optics - right now the Raps are a dump - THANK YOU TEACHERS OF ONTARIO!
    To think this is the Teachers Pension Plan's fault takes a shit load of assumption based on nothing buy guess.

    I would also mention BC has done a horrible job with this team to date... throwing a bucket of paint on a wall that is half demolished does not increase the value of the house. Thats all you are doing with resigning BC if its in hopes it increases the value of the team to potential buyers.

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    I don't think we had the worst ownership the last couple years. Maybe before BC our owners were reluctant to spent money and seek the best but that all changed with the arrival of BC.

    They went out there and got one of the best reputed GMs and made him one of the highest paid GM in this league ( I believe 3 million a season). Then they allow him to hire any coach that he wants , bringing Ivironi and then the ...

    Based on what BC has said on many times before, he has had the green light to spent money and EVEN go over the Cap.He has had this freedom for last 3-5 years !!

    They also gave the GM total power ( again, this is PER BC himself). So I am not sure where we are getting the notations that the owners are not good.

    After 5 years of spending, they have a team with few scrubs and third worst record in the league. I think it only makes sense and it is quite logical for them to take the time and reconsider the man in charge of the money ( BC) before, dumping another 10-15 million and 4-5 years down the toilet.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    To think this is the Teachers Pension Plan's fault takes a shit load of assumption based on nothing buy guess.

    I would also mention BC has done a horrible job with this team to date... throwing a bucket of paint on a wall that is half demolished does not increase the value of the house. Thats all you are doing with resigning BC if its in hopes it increases the value of the team to potential buyers.
    The Teachers are the majority owners - I'm not sure it is that big of an assumption but, I do agree, that is an opinion statement.

    We'd have to disagree on BC's job. It has not been a rousing success but there have been good times especially considering the state of things when he took over. An Atlantic championship, 2 playoff appearances, 5th at the ASG last season was not horrible. There has been a lot of well-noted bad luck along the way (Garbo, Bosh injuries last year, players quitting last year). They do have assets, good value from the 9 and 13 picks the last 2 years, a high draft pick this year, and the 5th lowest payroll heading in to next season with an uncertain future due to the CBA situation.

    Given the state of the franchise over its 16 years of existence, horrible can be a relative term.

    I still stick to the claim there is no worse ownership situation in the league than the current Raptors situation.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The Teachers are the majority owners - I'm not sure it is that big of an assumption but, I do agree, that is an opinion statement.

    We'd have to disagree on BC's job. It has not been a rousing success but there have been good times especially considering the state of things when he took over. An Atlantic championship, 2 playoff appearances, 5th at the ASG last season was not horrible. There has been a lot of well-noted bad luck along the way (Garbo, Bosh injuries last year, players quitting last year). They do have assets, good value from the 9 and 13 picks the last 2 years, a high draft pick this year, and the 5th lowest payroll heading in to next season with an uncertain future due to the CBA situation.

    Given the state of the franchise over its 16 years of existence, horrible can be a relative term.

    I still stick to the claim there is no worse ownership situation in the league than the current Raptors situation.
    First off OTPP is a majority share holder in MLSE... that means they do have an influence in the day to day operations of the corporation, but thats significantly different than being a direct owner of a company. They do not sit there and tell MLSE or the Toronto Raptors exactly what to do. They do however help decide how money will/should be allocated. They do have an influence over how much money will go to salary, they do not however decide how salary will be spent... they exception ofcourse being the executive branches.

    If you look around the league, look at lvls of success and failure, GMs that have been moved and brought in... you will find this ownership group is not nearly as bad as others out there. Its easy to say they are the worst because this team is bad, and they are a big faceless corporation, but just spend sometime reading up on other owners, ownership groups, their involvement with their teams, their actions.... many other teams failures can be directly attributed to onwerships. This teams is due to its GM.

    One of the interesting things I find here is how people who like (or maybe atleast don't dislike) BC still don't like MLSE and even further OTPP. Which I find interesting. When they signed BC they gave him free reigns to do as he pleased, took a step back from the organization. Almost everything this team has done over the past 5 years is BCs child.... the only exception perhaps being Sam Mitchell, but he also did resign him after one year (any of the few players left when his first season started could have been potentially been moved... the majority were...., Bosh was signed to an extension under BC, Jose and Mo Pete weren't BCs but they were quality players anyways) While they didn't open the wallet to unlimited spending they did allow him to spend up to the max, with the ability to spend over if it would be worthwhile. There are not alot of teams that get that privilege. They more or less gave him the ability to do what he wanted, within reasons, which I would think should be supported by those who are on BC's side(?).

    That said I guess I'm the opposite... I have nothing against MLSE or OTPP but do not like what BC has done with this team. I have no issues with them as they are a strong ownership group, which greatly reduces the possibility of the team being moved. It is also an ownership group with a lot of $, which means given the right situation, they will be open to spend above the cap... thereby helping create the possibility of a championship team in Toronto. (note: I don't think spending money necessarily means winning, but there aren't a lot of teams who win that don't spend. While having money doesn't guarantee it will be spent, its atleast is more likely than not having money).

    Now I just want to take note that I have not always disliked BC... I do however think that he has made some very bad decisions since he took over. I'm not sure if they were due to an overreaction due to injuries, Bosh potentially leaving etc, or if it was due to arrogance in his own ability. I was initially excited about him coming, happy with his first year, satisfied with his second, understanding of his 3rd, disappointed in this 4th, disgusted with his 5th. I think any of his good moves have been suprpassed by his bad ones.... and more than anything his unwillingness to let go of this Bargnani dream he has led to the majority of this teams problems (that and both building around and not trading Bosh... when it was abundantly clear that Bosh was neither someone to build around or was going to stick around with the team).

    I will be highly disappointed in MLSE if BC is resigned with this team.... I will much less disappointed if BC is resigned and does something about the failed Bargnani experiment. Atleast then he and this organization can start taking steps forward rather than backwards or sideways.

    I think we as fans put way too much credence into who or what owns a team. The ones I would be much more concerned about are the ones who stick their nose into the GMs business and limit his ability to do what he wants or needs to do. Not the ones that sit back and say run this team and your next contract will be based on what you achieved. This ownersip group is making the right decision as of right now by not yet resignin BC. Both from a financial perspective (ie. OTPP want to keep costs low in order to potentially sell their share) and from a team perspective (ie. not rewarding BC for spending 5 years to build a 22 win team). While I do want stable management with this team... I want good stable management, not just the status quo because its easy.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    To be clear, while I do prefer BC is kept on at GM, my frustration is not only stemming from re-signing or not re-signing BC. My frustration is that the franchise is at a critical juncture and there is no extension for current GM nor is there no search underway for a replacement - that is a farce, in my opinion, and doing more harm than good in the big picture.

    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    First off OTPP is a majority share holder in MLSE... that means they do have an influence in the day to day operations of the corporation, but thats significantly different than being a direct owner of a company. They do not sit there and tell MLSE or the Toronto Raptors exactly what to do. They do however help decide how money will/should be allocated. They do have an influence over how much money will go to salary, they do not however decide how salary will be spent... they exception ofcourse being the executive branches.
    I have to disagree on the influence OTPP has on the day to day operations of the company. The very fact that Richard Peddie and Larry Tanenbaum have come out and publically supported BC is a clear indication that the OTPP are telling MLSE and the Raptors exactly what to do on this situation.

    If you look around the league, look at lvls of success and failure, GMs that have been moved and brought in... you will find this ownership group is not nearly as bad as others out there. Its easy to say they are the worst because this team is bad, and they are a big faceless corporation, but just spend sometime reading up on other owners, ownership groups, their involvement with their teams, their actions.... many other teams failures can be directly attributed to onwerships. This teams is due to its GM.
    The discussion of the state of the team is irrelevant to my frustration: resign BC or let him go, but do something. Not resigning him while not starting a search is a sure-fire way to ensure the franchise wastes another year given its current state. I have and do follow other teams in the league. Given where the Raptors currently are and the level of success they have had over the last 5 years since BC has been here, the team would be considered average in my opinion. Two playoff appearances with one division title, a season where they collapsed over the final 25 games and missed playoffs on last day of season, a season where the Jermaine O'Neal gamble failed is not great but it is the best this franchise has ever seen. The Raptors have had more regular season success over the last 5 years than any other stretch in the franchise history.

    One of the interesting things I find here is how people who like (or maybe atleast don't dislike) BC still don't like MLSE and even further OTPP. Which I find interesting. When they signed BC they gave him free reigns to do as he pleased, took a step back from the organization. Almost everything this team has done over the past 5 years is BCs child.... the only exception perhaps being Sam Mitchell, but he also did resign him after one year (any of the few players left when his first season started could have been potentially been moved... the majority were...., Bosh was signed to an extension under BC, Jose and Mo Pete weren't BCs but they were quality players anyways) While they didn't open the wallet to unlimited spending they did allow him to spend up to the max, with the ability to spend over if it would be worthwhile. There are not alot of teams that get that privilege. They more or less gave him the ability to do what he wanted, within reasons, which I would think should be supported by those who are on BC's side(?).
    I've never had much problem with the ownership situation until recently when it has been reported that an accountant with no basketball experience outside of recreation is holding up the GM situation. The people who make the sports-related decisions (Peddie, Tenennbaum) are all supportive of BC and want him back. The fact remains that if OTPP/MLSE do not want him back, then start the search for a replacement, get the ball rolling, be proactive - it is the fans and sponsors afterall that generate the revenues for the franchise. This situation is not helping fans or sponsors right now with so much uncertainty hanging over the leadership and future of the franchise.

    The comment of spending and implied generousity of the OTPP/MLSE is very arguable given what teams have spent on salaries this season. A review of team payrolls (link: HoopsHype) shows 8 teams who are luxury tax payers (payroll over $70.3M) with 6 of the 8 being playoff teams (UTA and HOU exceptions). The salary cap is actually $58M of which 24 teams of 30 are over and with 8 teams over the luxury tax there are then another 13 teams within $5M of the luxury tax. Basically there are 21 teams in the league with a payroll of $65M or greater. Most owners in the league spend money. Of the teams not included within the $5M range to the luxury tax, another team is $6M away (IND) and the rest are all lottery teams with the exception of OKC and CHI. OKC and CHI are at $57M and $55M respectively and are as successful as they are after multiple years in the lottery and, in the case of CHI, a stroke of very good luck. With the uncertainty of the new CBA, going by the old rules, both of those teams are going to be at or near luxury tax levels in 1-2 seasons as developed lottery players go off rookie deals (Rose and Westbrook, specifically).

    That said I guess I'm the opposite... I have nothing against MLSE or OTPP but do not like what BC has done with this team. I have no issues with them as they are a strong ownership group, which greatly reduces the possibility of the team being moved. It is also an ownership group with a lot of $, which means given the right situation, they will be open to spend above the cap... thereby helping create the possibility of a championship team in Toronto. (note: I don't think spending money necessarily means winning, but there aren't a lot of teams who win that don't spend. While having money doesn't guarantee it will be spent, its atleast is more likely than not having money).
    The idea of MLSE keeping the team from being moved is not based on sound thinking in my opinion. They are the 10th most valuable franchise in the league according to Forbes, even being third worst in the league the attendance was still 19th in the league and has been in the upper third for most seasons (look at ATL's attendance relative to success), TOR is the 4th largest market in North America, and the Raptors have a fan base of an entire country versus just one city which is very good for Stern and the NBA.

    Now I just want to take note that I have not always disliked BC... I do however think that he has made some very bad decisions since he took over. I'm not sure if they were due to an overreaction due to injuries, Bosh potentially leaving etc, or if it was due to arrogance in his own ability. I was initially excited about him coming, happy with his first year, satisfied with his second, understanding of his 3rd, disappointed in this 4th, disgusted with his 5th. I think any of his good moves have been suprpassed by his bad ones.... and more than anything his unwillingness to let go of this Bargnani dream he has led to the majority of this teams problems (that and both building around and not trading Bosh... when it was abundantly clear that Bosh was neither someone to build around or was going to stick around with the team).
    From what I'm seeing you were happy when the team went from 5th worst to Atlantic championship and playoff contender - rightfully so. Steps were taken to improve roster weaknesses (C) in an attempt to become more than a first round exit (JO trade) and it failed. The next plan (Turk) also failed at the end of the season despite a slow start they were still 5th at the ASG break and missed the playoffs on the last day of the season. I find it ironic that this year is disgusting when the moves made by BC has given them the 5th lowest payroll next season (lower if Barbosa opts out) and has started with a base of solid draft picks in DD and ED and young players with potential to develop in to solid role players. No doubt this team is lacking a franchise player but those are usually only obtained through the draft which we have a high draft pick for the first time in 6 years. The rumours and change in company line regarding Bargnani (trade) makes it quite clear that there is an unwillingness to not trade Bargnani. Any trade that makes the team better in the long term, I have confidence BC will do. The Bosh has been discussed numerous times but really only has a solid foundation with the benefit of hindsight - no team was willing to give fair value for a player unwilling to sign an extension and why would the Raps trade him when they were 5th around the trade deadline after a slow start? I do agree Bosh was not a guy to build around but there are really only 5 or 6 players in the league worthy of considering franchise guys so every team tends to build around someone.

    I will be highly disappointed in MLSE if BC is resigned with this team.... I will much less disappointed if BC is resigned and does something about the failed Bargnani experiment. Atleast then he and this organization can start taking steps forward rather than backwards or sideways.
    We'll have to disagree on this. I do think the orgnization has taken considerable steps forward. I also think BC is to be commended for not putting his own situation before the team. I think he could have made deals that would have got the team in to the playoffs but it would have created a Charlotte type situation or the situation Indiana has been in for the last 5 years.

    I made this comment in another thread at one time about the hypocricy of fans wanting a winning team but those same fans being unwilling to go through what it takes to get there - i.e. some losing seasons with high draft picks the 'reward'. Everyone seems to agree the best way to build a team is through the draft so here we are. Presti in OKC is given much praise however the franchise lost a lot in the beginning as the team was built to what it is today. BC made a winner immediately only to watch it fall apart through injuries/flawed cornerstones and now we are back to another rebuild. Given his prior work in TOR and PHX and the current state of the roster, I have no doubt he can do it again - and faster than many think (do not forget the OKC went from 33 to 31 to 20 to 23 to 50 wins between playoff appearences). In fact, forgetting the current GM situation, I am very optimistic that a franchise that can compete for the top of the standings and deep playoff pushes can be built rather than an 7/8th seed franchise or borderline playoffs franchise. I also have no doubt Bargnani and Calderon will be moved if a good deal can be found.

    I think we as fans put way too much credence into who or what owns a team. The ones I would be much more concerned about are the ones who stick their nose into the GMs business and limit his ability to do what he wants or needs to do. Not the ones that sit back and say run this team and your next contract will be based on what you achieved. This ownersip group is making the right decision as of right now by not yet resignin BC. Both from a financial perspective (ie. OTPP want to keep costs low in order to potentially sell their share) and from a team perspective (ie. not rewarding BC for spending 5 years to build a 22 win team). While I do want stable management with this team... I want good stable management, not just the status quo because its easy.
    Again, before I even begin, I'll have to start by saying we'll have to agree to disagree on this. I agree on the owners sticking noses in, however, given the accoutant representing 2/3's of the ownership is holding up the re-signing of BC when the Chairman of MLSE (and 20% minority owner) and the CEO and President of MLSE want him back - I think Pinocchio is lying up a storm down the hall. This is a very accomplished GM with 2 EOY awards (which are voted on by peers), numerous compliments from Peddie and Tanenbaum, and high praise from people like Barkley at ASG and Cuban during Mavs last visit. To say that BC spent 5 years to build a 22 win team forgets 2 playoff appearances, an Atlantic division title, and missing last year on the final day of the season due to injuries and players quitting. The fact these two troubled years delivered ED and DD at 9 and 13 while still being competitive is a good thing. Even this year after a slow start and before the season was decimated by injuries, people here and in the media were discussing playoff possibilities. I do not think if the path of success was reversed (i.e. 22, 40, 33, 41, 47) anyone would be debating whether or not BC was suitable for the job or should be kept on.

    Forgetting the fact I think BC should be resigned, not actively pursuing a replacement is a huge mistake as well. I'm not sure if the financial perspective is that relevant when it would be less than 1% of the purchase price and a GM with BC's experience is in charge. Guys like Billy Knight and Ed Stefanski leave teams for whatever reasons only to land somewhere else and enjoy success there - it doesn't mean they are not competent at their profession.

    Given the fact the Raptors have had the best 5 year stretch of regular season basketball with 2 postseason appearances and a third lost on the final day of the season under BC and prior to this there were 3 appearances in 11 years, none in the previous 4 years before he arrived, and 33 wins being the highest the Raps ever achieved in the non-playoff years, I think Raptors fans have a case of selective memory going on what Colangelo has done with the franchise during his time here.

    This is a long post. To wrap up, my view from your post is that you think Bargnani is awful and BC won't trade him therefore you are disgusted by BC and OTPP is right not to extend him. While my line of thought has been questioned with possible assumptions I have made (which is fine), I think the same argument can be made towards your line of thinking and drawn assumptions (which is also fine).

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    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    One of the interesting things I find here is how people who like (or maybe atleast don't dislike) BC still don't like MLSE and even further OTPP. Which I find interesting. When they signed BC they gave him free reigns to do as he pleased, took a step back from the organization. Almost everything this team has done over the past 5 years is BCs child.... the only exception perhaps being Sam Mitchell, but he also did resign him after one year (any of the few players left when his first season started could have been potentially been moved... the majority were...., Bosh was signed to an extension under BC, Jose and Mo Pete weren't BCs but they were quality players anyways) While they didn't open the wallet to unlimited spending they did allow him to spend up to the max, with the ability to spend over if it would be worthwhile. There are not alot of teams that get that privilege. They more or less gave him the ability to do what he wanted, within reasons, which I would think should be supported by those who are on BC's side(?).
    Nicely Said. There are many GMs who envy the freedom and resources and support that BC had in Toronto for the past five years. BC was given all the tools to success and has made terrible mistakes that are hard to look passed on.


    Quote GarbageTime wrote: View Post
    Now I just want to take note that I have not always disliked BC... I do however think that he has made some very bad decisions since he took over. I'm not sure if they were due to an overreaction due to injuries, Bosh potentially leaving etc, or if it was due to arrogance in his own ability. I was initially excited about him coming, happy with his first year, satisfied with his second, understanding of his 3rd, disappointed in this 4th, disgusted with his 5th.
    Same here. I was one of his biggest fans till I saw all the questionable moves that he made over the years here. The fact that he has blown the team up over 3 times now, signs player one summer and moves them next and ... just tells me that he is out of answers here and he has nothing more to offer. He may become successful again some where else but he is out of answers in Toronto.

    BC's mistakes started with drafting AB as the first over all pick but it does not finish and it is not limited to just AB. He has made mistake in almost 70-80% of all his transactions and moves.
    Although, he is good at blowing the team up, shipping out his mistakes out of the town ( JO, Hedo) and start from Zero again, but at some point of time you have to ask yourself, how many times are we going to start from zero again ?

    As I said before, these sort of repeated mistake by the same offender and lack of progress will not fly in any other professional cooperation out there in the real world and I hope the MLSE also wakes up and stop this non-sense and waste of time, money and resources in the hands of BC.
    Last edited by Raptor4Ever; Sun Apr 17th, 2011 at 03:05 PM.

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