View Poll Results: Is Bargnani as a PF a gimmick to raise his trade value or justify keeping him next?

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  • Raise trade value to ship him out.

    17 51.52%
  • Pair him with a legit C next year in TOR.

    6 18.18%
  • I don't know - both are realistic situations right now.

    10 30.30%
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Thread: Is the new focus of AB as PF for the benefit of the Raps in a trade or next year?

  1. #1
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Is the new focus of AB as PF for the benefit of the Raps in a trade or next year?

    I think it is fair to say BC was the most realistic I have ever heard him in a press conference. Keep in mind a GM can't come out and say, "We are sh!t." or "We have nobody on this team worth anything."

    With that said, the new focus of AB as a PF (from Colangelo today and Bargnani last week) has me wondering:

    Is this new focus because we know he is a failure defensively as a C in the NBA and:

    1) this is the new 'promotion' to raise his trade value with a team that has a C already, or
    2) is it to hopefully keep him around for next year with a legit C next to him in a Raps uniform?

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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    #1.

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    Dear God It Better Be Option 1.

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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    I mean...if we move Davis or Amir to try and cover up White Swan's historically bad rebounding and league worst help defense because he can score inefficiently...I'm following a new team.

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    No, this is the way BC is going for another year. He is going to try to move either Amir or Ed ( two people who have trade values) and see if he can make something happen. Without AB, we are not going to win more than 18 games next season anyway so BC is going to give it one more try.

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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    I mean...if we move Davis or Amir to try and cover up White Swan's historically bad rebounding and league worst help defense because he can score inefficiently...I'm following a new team.
    I think AB scores efficiently and in variety of the way But I think Tim will be following you too

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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    I think AB scores efficiently
    You're wrong, he doesn't. Otherwise nobody would want him traded so much/the media wouldn't be calling him out. He's only been efficient for one season in his entire career: the last one Bosh played.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    I think AB scores efficiently and in variety of the way But I think Tim will be following you too
    The key words are: I think. Obviously you are entitled to think what you please, as am I or anyone else, however mathematics and statistics do not back the thought.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    No, this is the way BC is going for another year. He is going to try to move either Amir or Ed ( two people who have trade values) and see if he can make something happen. Without AB, we are not going to win more than 18 games next season anyway so BC is going to give it one more try.
    I admire your loyalty to Bargs but the suggestion to move Amir or even Ed is beyond comprehension. Move a potentially good frontcourt player in Ed on a rookie contract? Are you serious? Just to keep Andrea?
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    ^^^ If the Plan is to keep Andera and try him at PF ( Which is what BC said) and bring a Legitimate center, then you need to do it either through Free Agency or giving up some real talent.

    In both case, one of the guys , Amir or Ed, should be moved as a trading chip or in the case of Amir as giving Raps more room in Salary front.

    I am sure BC will try really hard to hold on onto ED so the Odd man out is AMIR IF the plan is too keep AB.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star ezz_bee's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Without AB, we are not going to win more than 18 games next season anyway so BC is going to give it one more try.
    With AB we are only going to win 25 so what's the difference? Either way we need more/better players. Bargnani will not play power forward here IMO unless as a back up PF/backup C.

    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    ^^^ If the Plan is to keep Andera and try him at PF ( Which is what BC said) and bring a Legitimate center, then you need to do it either through Free Agency or giving up some real talent.

    In both case, one of the guys , Amir or Ed, should be moved as a trading chip or in the case of Amir as giving Raps more room in Salary front.

    I am sure BC will try really hard to hold on onto ED so the Odd man out is AMIR IF the plan is too keep AB.
    Why the "should"? BC himself said the goal next year was to continue to load up on "good" contracts, which BOTH Amir and Ed (speaking in terms of production per $$$ versus players of comparable position and salary) as I wrote in my extensive post about three weeks ago, it would be VERY difficult to trade Amir and get a player who give better production per cost of salary. IF Bargnani gets more burn at PF this year you do not need to get rid or Amir or Ed, It just means that you don't resign reggie evans. That's what we had this year, Reggie/Evans/Amir as the PFs and Bargnani as C. Also unless BC is successful in bringing in that BIG C. Moving Bargs to the PF won't make a difference if he is being paired with reggie/evans/amir as it is still he same front court line ups. The only way I see bargs getting burn at PF is if Coangelo is actively shopping him. I could go either way with bargnani next year (which is friendlier than most posters who want to see him gone like yesterday) but in terms of Power Forwards we get really good production from Amir and Davis so I see Bargnani as the odd man out. IF I were GM this is the front court rotation I'd use

    Amir/Davis/Evans
    (BIG CENTER)/Bargnani/Evans/Ajinca/Alibi

    I would also use Barg's at the three for a couple of shifts a game maybe 2-3 offensive positions a game to a max of 5 min's total at the 3 spot. But no matter how you slice it I just don't see him getting a lot of burn at PF. He seems to be better are gaurding 5's and you don't get to choose who guards you on the offensive side of the ball.
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    Raptors Republic Starter pesterm1's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    ^^^ If the Plan is to keep Andera and try him at PF ( Which is what BC said) and bring a Legitimate center, then you need to do it either through Free Agency or giving up some real talent.

    In both case, one of the guys , Amir or Ed, should be moved as a trading chip or in the case of Amir as giving Raps more room in Salary front.

    I am sure BC will try really hard to hold on onto ED so the Odd man out is AMIR IF the plan is too keep AB.
    by the looks of it right now the raptor are drafting 3rd. on most mock drafts they have a center in the 3rd slot. its pretty easy to understand the raptors taking a center with the high pick (kanter,valanciunas) and then bringin in a Vet center for a few years till the new center is more polished. and trade bargnani. what many fans are trying to say is that it would be easier to do a plan like the one i have listed above and dedicate the team to defense more then it owuld be to find players to hide bargnnais downside.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    I think AB scores efficiently and in variety of the way But I think Tim will be following you too
    If AB was an all star quality above average scorer it could make up for his lack of effort at the other end and you wouldn't be talking about moving Amir or Ed. He isn't above average as a shooter in fact both Ed and Amir may be more efficient. So why would you sacrifice one of them in an attempt to hold on to Bargs. It looks to me as preferential treatment for someone for reasons beyond basketball.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    If BC is able to get the tough, defensive-minded C he has been looking for, then I am 99.9% sure that either Bargnani or Amir will get traded.

    To me, there are pros & cons of both moves:

    BARGNANI
    + 20+ppg C/PF, 26 years old, making $10M over the next couple seasons
    + offensive ability to spread the floor, pull the defensive C away from the basket, decent court vision and passing ability
    - horrendous defense, especially help-defense
    - no desire for rebounding

    AMIR
    + heart & hustle, leaves it all on the court
    + improving short/mid-range shot and FT shooting
    - foul prone, which serious impacts his ability to stay on the floor to consistently play 'starters minutes'
    - game is very similar to Davis, making him a little bit redundant

    For me, it probably would come down to which player would net the Raptors a better return in a trade.

    Assuming the new defensive C is truly a good one, then my preference would be to trade Amir. I love Amir, but with him basically being a copy of Davis who is becoming the starting PF of the future, Amir has become a bit redundant. I think his $5M contract makes him highly desirable and much easier to trade than Bargnani. I also like the fact that New-C/Davis/Bargnani gives the team much more lineup variation to exploit matchups than a New-C/Davis/Amir lineup would.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If BC is able to get the tough, defensive-minded C he has been looking for, then I am 99.9% sure that either Bargnani or Amir will get traded.
    One or both might need to get traded in a deal to get that center.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    One or both might need to get traded in a deal to get that center.
    True indeed. This should be another interesting offseason to say the least.

    I was wondering about a deal that ships out Amir and brings back Oden... may have to include a 3rd and/or 4th team, since Portland is set at the 4 with Aldridge. If Oden can come back healthy (big IF I know), a 3-big rotation of Oden/Davis/Bargnani could be good, especially if the PG/SG/SF defense is improved over last season.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Apr 19th, 2011 at 10:35 AM.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    If BC is able to get the tough, defensive-minded C he has been looking for, then I am 99.9% sure that either Bargnani or Amir will get traded.

    To me, there are pros & cons of both moves:

    BARGNANI
    + 20+ppg C/PF, 26 years old, making $10M over the next couple seasons
    + offensive ability to spread the floor, pull the defensive C away from the basket, decent court vision and passing ability
    - horrendous defense, especially help-defense
    - no desire for rebounding

    AMIR
    + heart & hustle, leaves it all on the court
    + improving short/mid-range shot and FT shooting
    - foul prone, which serious impacts his ability to stay on the floor to consistently play 'starters minutes'
    - game is very similar to Davis, making him a little bit redundant

    For me, it probably would come down to which player would net the Raptors a better return in a trade.

    Assuming the new defensive C is truly a good one, then my preference would be to trade Amir. I love Amir, but with him basically being a copy of Davis who is becoming the starting PF of the future, Amir has become a bit redundant. I think his $5M contract makes him highly desirable and much easier to trade than Bargnani. I also like the fact that New-C/Davis/Bargnani gives the team much more lineup variation to exploit matchups than a New-C/Davis/Amir lineup would.
    Okay, I don't understand this thinking at all. How on earth is having Davis and Amir redundant? They both rebound, play defense, score efficiently, work hard and move well without the ball. They are both the types of players you want on a contender. Amir is probably best suited to come of the bench, whereas Davis' future seems pretty much set as the starting PF of the Raptors. MOst importantly, the two can, and have, played together on the court. WHile both need to gain strength, they should be able to eventually both play both PF and center.

    As for who to trade, you don't want to trade the guy with the most trade value. You want to trade the guy who is least likely to contribute to a contender. And that's Bargnani. Couple that with the fact that Amir has a better contract, I really don't see why you'd trade Amir instead of Bargnani. Plus...Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding will still be a problem no matter who he plays with. We've had 5 years of this and it's become pretty obvious that it's too much of a problem. He's really not that good. Let's just get rid of him and turn the chapter on that part of the Raptors.
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  19. #19
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Okay, I don't understand this thinking at all. How on earth is having Davis and Amir redundant? They both rebound, play defense, score efficiently, work hard and move well without the ball. They are both the types of players you want on a contender. Amir is probably best suited to come of the bench, whereas Davis' future seems pretty much set as the starting PF of the Raptors. MOst importantly, the two can, and have, played together on the court. WHile both need to gain strength, they should be able to eventually both play both PF and center.

    As for who to trade, you don't want to trade the guy with the most trade value. You want to trade the guy who is least likely to contribute to a contender. And that's Bargnani. Couple that with the fact that Amir has a better contract, I really don't see why you'd trade Amir instead of Bargnani. Plus...Bargnani's lack of defense and rebounding will still be a problem no matter who he plays with. We've had 5 years of this and it's become pretty obvious that it's too much of a problem. He's really not that good. Let's just get rid of him and turn the chapter on that part of the Raptors.
    The first thing I said was that my decision as GM would likely ultimately hinge on what I could get back for each player. I personally think that the best way to make a team better is to deal from a position of strength/depth, as that will hurt your team the least. If that approach also is the best way to add an impact player in return, than it's a win-win.

    I don't want Davis or Amir to ever play C, as they would be undersized and playing out of position. I don't think the Raps would generate enough offense with the two of them, as they both are at their best when playing low on the blocks.

    I love Amir, but if the Raps can add the defensive-C or address weaknesses at other positions by dealing Amir, then I would go for it. As good as Amir is and as much as I like having him on the team, he's essentially a backup, with the emergence of Davis. I just think that Davis/Bargnani gives you more variation on offense than Davis/Amir. Where I'm coming from is that I think losing Amir hurts the team less than losing Bargnani would (I wouldn't think this without having seen Davis emerge as the starting PF) AND I think the team could get more for Amir than Bargnani - lose less and gain more.

    I'm not hating, I'm just trying to be objective and it's just my opinion.

  20. #20
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    The first thing I said was that my decision as GM would likely ultimately hinge on what I could get back for each player. I personally think that the best way to make a team better is to deal from a position of strength/depth, as that will hurt your team the least. If that approach also is the best way to add an impact player in return, than it's a win-win.

    I don't want Davis or Amir to ever play C, as they would be undersized and playing out of position. I don't think the Raps would generate enough offense with the two of them, as they both are at their best when playing low on the blocks.

    I love Amir, but if the Raps can add the defensive-C or address weaknesses at other positions by dealing Amir, then I would go for it. As good as Amir is and as much as I like having him on the team, he's essentially a backup, with the emergence of Davis. I just think that Davis/Bargnani gives you more variation on offense than Davis/Amir. Where I'm coming from is that I think losing Amir hurts the team less than losing Bargnani would (I wouldn't think this without having seen Davis emerge as the starting PF) AND I think the team could get more for Amir than Bargnani - lose less and gain more.

    I'm not hating, I'm just trying to be objective and it's just my opinion.
    What's best for the team is to keep the types of players that help you win. Amir and Davis are those types of players, so there's no way on earth I trade either of them. In fact, I'd rather trade every single player on the team, including DeRozan (who I don't want to trade), than either of those two. Why? Because they're the only players on the team that I believe play the game the "right way".

    What's best for the team is not to necessarily get the most back but to have the right type of players on the team. That's Amir and Davis. And it's NOT Bargnani. I don't care if you get more for Amir because there's a reason you'd get more for Amir. You'd get even more for Davis, probably, but there's not way I trade him, either.

    And I'm not suggesting that either Davis or Amir be the starting center, but to back up the position for 10 or 15 minutes a game. They're not ideal to do that now, but in a couple of years they'll be more than fine. The Raptors aren't going to go out and contend next year, so there really shouldn't be any hurry.

    As for them playing together, I see them as similar to the Davis' who played for the Pacers in the late 90s. They were both similar players but excelled together. It's not as if they both are scorers that would get in each other's way. They both don't need the ball to be effective. They are guys that don't need to be on a certain spot on the floor to be effective. Amir played A LOT of high post this season, which was helped by the fact that his 15 foot jumper improved vastly. And Davis' jumper seems to be coming along fairly well.

    Just because Amir may have more trade value, doesn't mean you trade him and keep the flawed player that is far more of a problem. What sense does that make?
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