View Poll Results: Is Bargnani as a PF a gimmick to raise his trade value or justify keeping him next?

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  • Raise trade value to ship him out.

    17 51.52%
  • Pair him with a legit C next year in TOR.

    6 18.18%
  • I don't know - both are realistic situations right now.

    10 30.30%
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Thread: Is the new focus of AB as PF for the benefit of the Raps in a trade or next year?

  1. #21
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    What's best for the team is to keep the types of players that help you win. Amir and Davis are those types of players, so there's no way on earth I trade either of them. In fact, I'd rather trade every single player on the team, including DeRozan (who I don't want to trade), than either of those two. Why? Because they're the only players on the team that I believe play the game the "right way".

    What's best for the team is not to necessarily get the most back but to have the right type of players on the team. That's Amir and Davis. And it's NOT Bargnani. I don't care if you get more for Amir because there's a reason you'd get more for Amir. You'd get even more for Davis, probably, but there's not way I trade him, either.

    And I'm not suggesting that either Davis or Amir be the starting center, but to back up the position for 10 or 15 minutes a game. They're not ideal to do that now, but in a couple of years they'll be more than fine. The Raptors aren't going to go out and contend next year, so there really shouldn't be any hurry.

    As for them playing together, I see them as similar to the Davis' who played for the Pacers in the late 90s. They were both similar players but excelled together. It's not as if they both are scorers that would get in each other's way. They both don't need the ball to be effective. They are guys that don't need to be on a certain spot on the floor to be effective. Amir played A LOT of high post this season, which was helped by the fact that his 15 foot jumper improved vastly. And Davis' jumper seems to be coming along fairly well.

    Just because Amir may have more trade value, doesn't mean you trade him and keep the flawed player that is far more of a problem. What sense does that make?
    It's really impossible to argue anything rational with you because you see absolutely no value in Bargnani. All I'm saying is that if you can trade a backup, redundant PF for an equally good player that could start for the team at another position, it makes sense, regardless as to whether or not they keep Bargnani.

  2. #22
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    It's really impossible to argue anything rational with you because you see absolutely no value in Bargnani. All I'm saying is that if you can trade a backup, redundant PF for an equally good player that could start for the team at another position, it makes sense, regardless as to whether or not they keep Bargnani.
    Stop wasting your time. Tim doesn't care about any solutions that involve Bargnani. Even if an ideal solution worked, he'd still find a reason to back his opinion.

    Fact is, if Bargani is traded, and a defensive Centre is acquired (separately or not), then Davis could very well get 30-32 minutes, leaving Amir with 15 - 20 minutes per game. In this scenario, I can't see AJ being satisfied with his minutes going down - especially if Andrea is moved. As for both being on the Court together (in order to rectify Amir's drop in minutes), I just can't agree with them handling true Bigs together - at this time. If Davis increases in size and strength, it's possible, but now we have a big IF being thrown into the equation.

    But let's say both increase their size and strength - how does Amir handle that change, considering his history with injuries. What effect would this have on AJ's quickness, and will he become even more foul prone. Suffice to say, that if Andrea is gone, BC (I hope its' him in charge) will look not just for a Starting Centre, but a back-up guy as well. And that means Johnson will be bound for somewhere else.


    Here's some more of Tim's perspectives:

    As for who to trade, you don't want to trade the guy [Amir] with the most trade value. [Tim W. ]
    Wow. Nothing else to say on this type of statement.

    WHile both need to gain strength, they should be able to eventually both play both PF and center. [Tim W. ]
    A Big who's really a Big, would demolish Amir. Or if not that, the constant banging would have him back on the injury list. Considering Johnson's ankle (an unknown at this time) and back problems, the risk is higher with AJ if we follow through with this scenario (Ed & Amir together). If Amir really is healthy, then why not move him now - regardless of whether you move Andrea - as his trade value is at a peak.

    In fact, I'd rather trade every single player on the team, including DeRozan (who I don't want to trade), than either of those two. [Tim W. ]
    Let's see now. No Andrea. No Demar. But we'd have Davis & Johnson. Sure, our defense will be better, but our Offense will be not just horrible, but down right embarrassing.

    And I'm not suggesting that either Davis or Amir be the starting center, but to back up the position for 10 or 15 minutes a game. They're not ideal to do that now, but in a couple of years they'll be more than fine. [Tim W. ]
    And Tim knows this, because his Genie told him?

    The irony of all this, is that it's not Bargnani who will impede Davis in his PF role - as it seems AB is on a short leash (here or gone) - but Amir who will affect it. And as such, AJ will eventually be moved. When it comes to playing time, I can't accept all this love and camaraderie that goes with being friends/buddies. Take the Derozan/Weems situation. I'm of the belief that Weems stunted Demar's progress in the first year, and that the best thing that could happen to DD, will be when Sonny has moved on.

    With respect to Amir & Ed, this talk about not being a Contender (for some time), just seems to reinforce my perspective on player roles. Why keep 2 of the same players, when Raptor's needs are all across the board - Starting PG, Back-up SG, Starting SF, Centre.

    Now Tim will say that I can't let go of the Andrea thing. Which is absolutely wrong. What I can't let go of, is our propensity to screw up our draft picks whether it's done by playing too much, playing in the wrong position, or expectations which don't justify the player's abilities, or salary. Whatever it is - and this goes for any of Toronto sport team's draft picks - one thing is always true .... they ain't here anymore.

    Quite a few fans believe Andrea was coddled too much (I'd be one of those), so why not try the opposite approach for one year. Bench him if his effort is not there. Or reduce his playing time. This won't reduce his value, as we've already done that with all this Bullshit going on. And besides, with BC's capacity to extract something out of nothing (Miami's pick - JJ, or Barbosa for Hedo), I'm sure he can convince some GM that we screwed up, and that Bargnani has talent.

    In some respects, Bargnani may represent why I've been reluctant to truly adopt Davis into the fold. I just have this deja vu that he'll be gone - whether it's because he becomes a top talent (and decides to flee the Titanic), or because he doesn't fill that expectation quota, we so love to have. I was a big fan of Bosh (not in his final year), as was so many others. Now we hate him. Such is the life of a Toronto fan.
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  3. #23
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post

    Just because Amir may have more trade value, doesn't mean you trade him and keep the flawed player that is far more of a problem. What sense does that make?
    I like Amir but, leaving the Bargs issue aside, it would depend on what you could get for him. I would prefer to see Davis/Amir/Centre X next year as the primary big rotation but if you get a starting 5 or 3 back for Amir I think you have to do that deal. I know that the metrics love Amir but it's pretty clear his ceiling is as a 3rd big and they have lots of holes to fill in that starting lineup.

    On the Bargs issue, doing anything with the roster for the sake of Bargnani is insanity and it's pretty clear they won't be making moves to build around him. It's pretty clear that the stage has been set to trade him sooner rather than later.

  4. #24
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    It's really impossible to argue anything rational with you because you see absolutely no value in Bargnani. All I'm saying is that if you can trade a backup, redundant PF for an equally good player that could start for the team at another position, it makes sense, regardless as to whether or not they keep Bargnani.
    You ever think that I'm the one who's thinking rationally? I'm not blinded by loyalty or empty scoring or potential. I look at the game objectively and reach conclusions based on what I see. If I see the same thing over and over and over again, it's pretty hard to ignore it. The people who want to try and figure out how to keep Bargnani aren't looking at the team objectively. Why would you try and keep a player when there is overwhelming evidence saying that he is not good for the team? Please tell me what sense this makes?

    And my point is that neither Amir nor Davis are redundant. Not if you're trying to win. You keep the players that help you win and get rid of the players that don't.
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  5. #25
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  6. #26
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    I admire your loyalty to Bargs but the suggestion to move Amir or even Ed is beyond comprehension. Move a potentially good frontcourt player in Ed on a rookie contract? Are you serious? Just to keep Andrea?
    sounds like you're higher on amir than ed... are you?
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  7. #27
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    You ever think that I'm the one who's thinking rationally? I'm not blinded by loyalty or empty scoring or potential. I look at the game objectively and reach conclusions based on what I see. If I see the same thing over and over and over again, it's pretty hard to ignore it. The people who want to try and figure out how to keep Bargnani aren't looking at the team objectively. Why would you try and keep a player when there is overwhelming evidence saying that he is not good for the team? Please tell me what sense this makes?

    And my point is that neither Amir nor Davis are redundant. Not if you're trying to win. You keep the players that help you win and get rid of the players that don't.
    yes, i love pointless rant arguments in forums.
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  8. #28
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Stop wasting your time. Tim doesn't care about any solutions that involve Bargnani. Even if an ideal solution worked, he'd still find a reason to back his opinion.
    Apparently your reading comprehension is about as good as your manners. You don't seem to get it. Why are you going to try and keep a player who doesn't help your team? There IS no ideal solution because Bargnani can't help your team win. He's too much of a liability half the time he's on the court.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Fact is, if Bargani is traded, and a defensive Centre is acquired (separately or not), then Davis could very well get 30-32 minutes, leaving Amir with 15 - 20 minutes per game. In this scenario, I can't see AJ being satisfied with his minutes going down - especially if Andrea is moved. As for both being on the Court together (in order to rectify Amir's drop in minutes), I just can't agree with them handling true Bigs together - at this time. If Davis increases in size and strength, it's possible, but now we have a big IF being thrown into the equation.
    So did the same genie that you accused me of listening to tell you that Amir isn't going to be happy with 20 mpg? And you also probably need to do a little more math. With three bigs, you can have each player playing 32 mpg. That's more than Amir played last season. I have no idea where you are getting this 15-20 mpg.

    As for neither Amir nor Davis being able to defend a true big center, that's what the center is for.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    But let's say both increase their size and strength - how does Amir handle that change, considering his history with injuries. What effect would this have on AJ's quickness, and will he become even more foul prone. Suffice to say, that if Andrea is gone, BC (I hope its' him in charge) will look not just for a Starting Centre, but a back-up guy as well. And that means Johnson will be bound for somewhere else.
    Amir's history of injuries? This is the FIRST season he's had ANY trouble with injuries. In fact he commented on that exact fact. Amir and Davis defended most of the best players this year, whether they were center or PF, so your point makes very little sense.


    Here's some more of Tim's perspectives:[/QUOTE]

    You have a problem with what I say. Say it to me. Don't be a dick and talk to someone else publicly about me. If you feel you can't keep up in an argument with me, which seems to be true, then talk about something else.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    As for who to trade, you don't want to trade the guy [Amir] with the most trade value. [Tim W. ]
    Wow. Nothing else to say on this type of statement.
    Wow, way to take something out of context. Try reading the rest of the discussion where someone else brought up the possibility that Amir has more trade value, so you should trade him. I was simply continuing that possibility for the sake of the discussion. Again, I don't know if you did that purposely to be a dick, or whether you just don't read very well.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    A Big who's really a Big, would demolish Amir. Or if not that, the constant banging would have him back on the injury list. Considering Johnson's ankle (an unknown at this time) and back problems, the risk is higher with AJ if we follow through with this scenario (Ed & Amir together). If Amir really is healthy, then why not move him now - regardless of whether you move Andrea - as his trade value is at a peak.
    Amir has never had injury problems before, so there's absolutely no reason to think that he will continue to do so.

    And I've never said that Amir would play all his minutes at center defending the starting center. Most likely, he'd be defending against backup players or the other team's PF. Neither one should play center full time, but it's not a stretch to say that both can play limited minutes as a backup center.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Let's see now. No Andrea. No Demar. But we'd have Davis & Johnson. Sure, our defense will be better, but our Offense will be not just horrible, but down right embarrassing.
    Yes, because I'm proposing to trade those guys for nothing. Jesus christ, think about it for a second! What I don't want are scorers who can't play a lick of defense. Is this simply too hard a concept for you to understand? Do I need to repeat it for you to understand it?

    Why do some people think that because some of us don't want Bargnani that we don't want anyone who can score? You know what we want? Someone who actually plays both f%$%ing ends of the court. That's what good players do. That's what players on contenders do.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    And Tim knows this, because his Genie told him?
    No, because I've followed the NBA long enough to realize that players get stronger as they get older. Both Amir and Davis are 23 and 21 respectively. Just use you f%^$ing head. The same one you apparently completely ignored when you wrote this post.

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    The irony of all this, is that it's not Bargnani who will impede Davis in his PF role - as it seems AB is on a short leash (here or gone) - but Amir who will affect it. And as such, AJ will eventually be moved.
    And you know this because a Genie told you? Christ, this has got to be the least self aware comment I"ve seen in a while. I can certainly be arrogant sometimes, but at least I try not to be hypocritical. You blast me for one thing then turn around and do the same thing in THE EXACT SAME POST!!

    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    When it comes to playing time, I can't accept all this love and camaraderie that goes with being friends/buddies. Take the Derozan/Weems situation. I'm of the belief that Weems stunted Demar's progress in the first year, and that the best thing that could happen to DD, will be when Sonny has moved on.

    With respect to Amir & Ed, this talk about not being a Contender (for some time), just seems to reinforce my perspective on player roles. Why keep 2 of the same players, when Raptor's needs are all across the board - Starting PG, Back-up SG, Starting SF, Centre.

    Now Tim will say that I can't let go of the Andrea thing. Which is absolutely wrong. What I can't let go of, is our propensity to screw up our draft picks whether it's done by playing too much, playing in the wrong position, or expectations which don't justify the player's abilities, or salary. Whatever it is - and this goes for any of Toronto sport team's draft picks - one thing is always true .... they ain't here anymore.

    Quite a few fans believe Andrea was coddled too much (I'd be one of those), so why not try the opposite approach for one year. Bench him if his effort is not there. Or reduce his playing time. This won't reduce his value, as we've already done that with all this Bullshit going on. And besides, with BC's capacity to extract something out of nothing (Miami's pick - JJ, or Barbosa for Hedo), I'm sure he can convince some GM that we screwed up, and that Bargnani has talent.

    In some respects, Bargnani may represent why I've been reluctant to truly adopt Davis into the fold. I just have this deja vu that he'll be gone - whether it's because he becomes a top talent (and decides to flee the Titanic), or because he doesn't fill that expectation quota, we so love to have. I was a big fan of Bosh (not in his final year), as was so many others. Now we hate him. Such is the life of a Toronto fan.
    .
    You know, I've never had a problem with your posts before, but if you want to have a discussion with me, then have one. If you're afraid to, then don't do this bullshit thing of talking "about me". It's cowardly, insulting, and, quite frankly, ignorant as hell.
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  9. #29
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I like Amir but, leaving the Bargs issue aside, it would depend on what you could get for him. I would prefer to see Davis/Amir/Centre X next year as the primary big rotation but if you get a starting 5 or 3 back for Amir I think you have to do that deal. I know that the metrics love Amir but it's pretty clear his ceiling is as a 3rd big and they have lots of holes to fill in that starting lineup.

    On the Bargs issue, doing anything with the roster for the sake of Bargnani is insanity and it's pretty clear they won't be making moves to build around him. It's pretty clear that the stage has been set to trade him sooner rather than later.
    However much I like Amir, if it truly makes the team better, then you do the deal. My problem is that you don't deal Amir and keep Bargnani, because that doesn't make the team better.
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  10. #30
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    I think that you can keep bargnani, amir and davis, you dont have to necessarily trade one of them, give them each like 25 min. and play davis at C off the bench at times. Next year is a good year for free agent bigs (nene,chandler,gasol) we can get a C through free agency. Injuries happen every year, if we have a rotation of 4 solid bigs (bargnani, amir, davis, and new C) chances are one of them will get hurt sometime during the season, depth is important. If we can defend at the point of attack, which I think Bayless can do better than calderon, and we anchor our defense at the back end with a 10 and 10, shot blocking C, I think that it will address a lot of our defensive problems. Moving bargnani to the PF is our best option atm, in my opinion.

    Who we really need to trade is calderon, his contract is hefty, his defense is poor, and Bayless needs to start.

  11. #31
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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Stop wasting your time. Tim doesn't care about any solutions that involve Bargnani. Even if an ideal solution worked, he'd still find a reason to back his opinion.

    Fact is, if Bargani is traded, and a defensive Centre is acquired (separately or not), then Davis could very well get 30-32 minutes, leaving Amir with 15 - 20 minutes per game. In this scenario, I can't see AJ being satisfied with his minutes going down - especially if Andrea is moved. As for both being on the Court together (in order to rectify Amir's drop in minutes), I just can't agree with them handling true Bigs together - at this time. If Davis increases in size and strength, it's possible, but now we have a big IF being thrown into the equation.

    But let's say both increase their size and strength - how does Amir handle that change, considering his history with injuries. What effect would this have on AJ's quickness, and will he become even more foul prone. Suffice to say, that if Andrea is gone, BC (I hope its' him in charge) will look not just for a Starting Centre, but a back-up guy as well. And that means Johnson will be bound for somewhere else.


    Here's some more of Tim's perspectives:



    Wow. Nothing else to say on this type of statement.



    A Big who's really a Big, would demolish Amir. Or if not that, the constant banging would have him back on the injury list. Considering Johnson's ankle (an unknown at this time) and back problems, the risk is higher with AJ if we follow through with this scenario (Ed & Amir together). If Amir really is healthy, then why not move him now - regardless of whether you move Andrea - as his trade value is at a peak.



    Let's see now. No Andrea. No Demar. But we'd have Davis & Johnson. Sure, our defense will be better, but our Offense will be not just horrible, but down right embarrassing.



    And Tim knows this, because his Genie told him?

    The irony of all this, is that it's not Bargnani who will impede Davis in his PF role - as it seems AB is on a short leash (here or gone) - but Amir who will affect it. And as such, AJ will eventually be moved. When it comes to playing time, I can't accept all this love and camaraderie that goes with being friends/buddies. Take the Derozan/Weems situation. I'm of the belief that Weems stunted Demar's progress in the first year, and that the best thing that could happen to DD, will be when Sonny has moved on.

    With respect to Amir & Ed, this talk about not being a Contender (for some time), just seems to reinforce my perspective on player roles. Why keep 2 of the same players, when Raptor's needs are all across the board - Starting PG, Back-up SG, Starting SF, Centre.

    Now Tim will say that I can't let go of the Andrea thing. Which is absolutely wrong. What I can't let go of, is our propensity to screw up our draft picks whether it's done by playing too much, playing in the wrong position, or expectations which don't justify the player's abilities, or salary. Whatever it is - and this goes for any of Toronto sport team's draft picks - one thing is always true .... they ain't here anymore.

    Quite a few fans believe Andrea was coddled too much (I'd be one of those), so why not try the opposite approach for one year. Bench him if his effort is not there. Or reduce his playing time. This won't reduce his value, as we've already done that with all this Bullshit going on. And besides, with BC's capacity to extract something out of nothing (Miami's pick - JJ, or Barbosa for Hedo), I'm sure he can convince some GM that we screwed up, and that Bargnani has talent.

    In some respects, Bargnani may represent why I've been reluctant to truly adopt Davis into the fold. I just have this deja vu that he'll be gone - whether it's because he becomes a top talent (and decides to flee the Titanic), or because he doesn't fill that expectation quota, we so love to have. I was a big fan of Bosh (not in his final year), as was so many others. Now we hate him. Such is the life of a Toronto fan.
    .

    Just a Great Read.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Just a Great Read.
    So is Harry Potter, and they're both fiction.

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    Do you guys honestly expect Andrea to be back next year?? And would BC trade Ed Davis? who is almost,if not already better than bargnani

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    Here's what I get from it all: It's his way of saying "come and get him!". First he goes on about how Ed is a double double machine waiting to happen (I agree) he just needs minutes. Then he says bargs is a shitty rebounder/defender and needs to play beside a solid defensive C as a PF to be truly effective (I agree) but then states we need a C. If Ed is such a gem, why would you limit his minutes? If anything, Ed needs more minutes. Are they going to play him at C though? It doesn't sound like it if BC is talking about going out and getting one.

    It was basically Colangelo officially telling the world Bargs is on block. Have at 'em.
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  15. #35
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    Colangelo was posturing at the press conference to try and keep Bargnani's trade value high. I think this is some of the "smooth" operating that BC's supporters so often point to as a reason to keep him around despite him running the team into the ground.

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Starter RapthoseLeafs's Avatar
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    Default Tim and I

    You know, I've never had a problem with your posts before, but if you want to have a discussion with me, then have one. If you're afraid to, then don't do this bullshit thing of talking "about me". It's cowardly, insulting, and, quite frankly, ignorant as hell.
    Tim,
    My rant - and yes, it was a rant - came about because of an earlier forum post If the raps do decide to keep Bargnani. In that debate, you kept up with the same points that we've heard over and over again - relative to Andrea. You just wouldn't let it go.

    That being said, I probably say things over and over again as well, so I guess we're even. Suffice to say, that forum topic got derailed by arguing over why we would keep him, when the forum topics' focus was how you play him if he doesn't move. Should Raptors trade Andrea, and don't get back equal value, I suspect a number of fans will be happy - including you.

    Maybe that's being presumptuous on my part, but never-the-less, this is where I find fault to some of the logic here - going so far as to think hate is blinding rationale thinking. I've been told that I'm not a Raptor fan, but a Bargnani fan - which is bullshit - but so be it. Bargnani is a Raptor, and I back every player on this team. I may not agree with specific roles, but I support our players. And that's not saying you don't, although AB might be an exception. What bothers me, is how we boo/despise certain players, yet call ourselves fans.

    As for never having problems with my post before, I'll have to disagree there. We've had discussions before, and too often there's been an subtle (or not so subtle) inference that I'm delusional when it comes to Bargnani. Fact is, he's no different than any other draft pick, where I think we've screwed up. Years from now, when he's gone, I'll completely forget about him. Just like I have about Vince, and soon enough about Bosh. Probably Davis too, when we screw that up as well. I'm an optimistic fan, and a pessimistic Toronto supporter - if that makes sense.

    As for being cowardly, I've dropped in on many game day threads over at RaptorsHQ, where I felt like a Christian in the Lions den, and still post. Definitely not welcomed - more ridiculed if anything. I liked the challenge, despite knowing it's a small group who are hijacking the threads. Even on here, if someone espouses keeping AB, it seems that a swarm descends on that person. It then becomes like a bunch of bullies - not that I'm saying you're a bully.

    Point being - I am a fan. And if I think Andrea can be worked into the system - even as a 6th man - than I should be able to say as much, without hearing the same thing over and over again. Granted, my offending post probably stretched how I stated things, but it's point was how we give up on rationale debate too often.

    If I offended you with my frustration, I apologize. The simple truth is, all this hate for Andrea is really going overboard. It discourages me as a fan, to think more people hate Bargnani, than they do Bosh. The former wants to stay, while the latter couldn't give 2 shits.

    And with that, I'll end this rant.
    .

  17. #37
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    Dude, not liking a player does not mean that you're not a fan. You shouldn't blindly support a player just because he plays for the team. Knicks fans probably hated Eddy Curry, but their all still good fans. I think everyone wants Bargnani to succeed...badly. But it's glaringly obvious that he won't, at least not here. They probably "hate" a player because he is clearly hurting the team that they are a fan of.

    The outroar about him is probably because most people, (including myself) were on the fence about him finally made a decision. He's crapped the bed completely and they feel like the they've wasted their time. Also, it's the internet and stuff, it and hyperbole go hand in hand.

    I don't even hate Bosh I either. I thought all of the stuff was petty as hell. We did a really shitty job of building around him in retrospect. If I were him, I would've left too. I appreciate what he did for the team.

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    Quote RapthoseLeafs wrote: View Post
    Tim,
    My rant - and yes, it was a rant - came about because of an earlier forum post If the raps do decide to keep Bargnani. In that debate, you kept up with the same points that we've heard over and over again - relative to Andrea. You just wouldn't let it go.

    That being said, I probably say things over and over again as well, so I guess we're even. Suffice to say, that forum topic got derailed by arguing over why we would keep him, when the forum topics' focus was how you play him if he doesn't move. Should Raptors trade Andrea, and don't get back equal value, I suspect a number of fans will be happy - including you.

    Maybe that's being presumptuous on my part, but never-the-less, this is where I find fault to some of the logic here - going so far as to think hate is blinding rationale thinking. I've been told that I'm not a Raptor fan, but a Bargnani fan - which is bullshit - but so be it. Bargnani is a Raptor, and I back every player on this team. I may not agree with specific roles, but I support our players. And that's not saying you don't, although AB might be an exception. What bothers me, is how we boo/despise certain players, yet call ourselves fans.

    As for never having problems with my post before, I'll have to disagree there. We've had discussions before, and too often there's been an subtle (or not so subtle) inference that I'm delusional when it comes to Bargnani. Fact is, he's no different than any other draft pick, where I think we've screwed up. Years from now, when he's gone, I'll completely forget about him. Just like I have about Vince, and soon enough about Bosh. Probably Davis too, when we screw that up as well. I'm an optimistic fan, and a pessimistic Toronto supporter - if that makes sense.

    As for being cowardly, I've dropped in on many game day threads over at RaptorsHQ, where I felt like a Christian in the Lions den, and still post. Definitely not welcomed - more ridiculed if anything. I liked the challenge, despite knowing it's a small group who are hijacking the threads. Even on here, if someone espouses keeping AB, it seems that a swarm descends on that person. It then becomes like a bunch of bullies - not that I'm saying you're a bully.

    Point being - I am a fan. And if I think Andrea can be worked into the system - even as a 6th man - than I should be able to say as much, without hearing the same thing over and over again. Granted, my offending post probably stretched how I stated things, but it's point was how we give up on rationale debate too often.

    If I offended you with my frustration, I apologize. The simple truth is, all this hate for Andrea is really going overboard. It discourages me as a fan, to think more people hate Bargnani, than they do Bosh. The former wants to stay, while the latter couldn't give 2 shits.

    And with that, I'll end this rant.
    .
    The problem I had was that you weren't talking "to" me. You weren't trying to have a conversation with me, as if actually directing your argument to me wasn't good enough. And while I've certainly had problems with your point of view, I've never had a problem with you, personally. At least not that I recall. I just feel you stepped over the line, there, and I didn't appreciate it.

    As for the discussion at hand, I apologize if I took that thread a bit off topic, but my point was that keeping Bargnani would be detrimental to the team, so there IS no solution if you keep him, in my opinion. It's all bad. It's like asking the question, "Let's say there's a meteor about to hit the earth. How do you, personally, stop it?" Well, you can't. There is no good answer.

    I also think the term "hate" is way overused. Just because I am passionate about the fact that Bargnani shouldn't be a part of the future of the team doesn't mean I hate him. Look at it this way. Say you have a friend or relative who wants to start a career in public relations, but they are shy, socially awkward and completely wrong for that field. I don't HATE careers in public relations or this person, I just am sure that they would hate the field and fail miserably at it. In that example, however, they can try it and see and there's really no harm done. But in the case of Bargnani, it means damaging the long term prospects of the team and setting the franchise back. As a fan of the team, I have a real problem with this.

    I think one main reason people seem to like Bosh more than Bargnani is, despite all of Bosh's faults, at least he worked hard and seemed to try most of the time he was on the court. Most people just don't see that with Bargnani.

    Lastly, I just don't seem to get emotionally invested in players, anymore. I don't know why, but I just don't. I certainly will get enamoured with a player's game, but it's usually rationally based and I tend not to get too attached to them. That could be why I couldn't care in the least whether Bargnani wants to be in Toronto or not. If I don't see it on the court, then I don't care (as long as it doesn't affect what I see on the court). I have one goal as a fan. To see the Raptors win a Championship. That means I only want players who will help them achieve that goal.

    And by the way, I felt the same about Villanueva's game when he was a Raptor. Thankfully, I only had to put up with that for a year.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    but my point was that keeping Bargnani would be detrimental to the team, so there IS no solution if you keep him, in my opinion. It's all bad.
    Seeing Tim fixate on AB like this and make it so personal was sad at first. But now, after all these month, seeing a grown up man, write pages and pages, repeat the same sad story everyday, sitting and praying that one player will be traded and suddenly and magically, all our problems as a TEAM will go away, is actually becoming quite funny.

    Keep on doing what you doing Timmi, you are the comical relief that Raptor Republic needs.

  20. #40
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    I believe the Bargnani-Davis/Johnson pairings will surprise some people.

    I would like the Raptors to acquire a defensive big man who can play 20-24 minutes. As a backup and an occasional starter when someone is injured or needs a rest.

    I hope the Raptors do not resign Weems, Ajinca, and Evans unless it's an end-of-bench situation.

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