View Poll Results: Should MLSE retain Colangelo?

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Thread: Grange: "retain Colangelo"

  1. #21
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    You think Colangelo had more to do with winning that division title and early successes more than Bosh and Mitchell did?


    I liked some of his acquisitions for that squad (TJ, Parker, Garbo) but they have all fallen off the NBA map (other than Parker playing for a bottom feeder) but Bosh's performance (2nd All NBA team) and Mitchell finding chemistry amongst 8-9 new acquisitions were larger factors to winning than Colangelo was.

    He didn't make 'ballsy' moves to build around Bosh otherwise he would have not drafted Bargnani who is a 'natural 4' as BC has indicated. Gettign O'Neal might be considered corageous but only becasue of his previous injury status. When did he ever cquire a swing who could make some plays down the stretch. Builing with Bosh and around him are 2 different things.

    If BC is kept on I expect more of the same. I'm hoping a change is in the works.
    You don't have to drink BC koolaid, but you have to be fair too. Every major move BC did was greeted with major approval from the media, fans and his star player (Bosh)... hindsight is 20/20, but BC made the big splash and wasn't afraid to make follow-up moves when they didn't pan out the way everybody expected them to.

    1) Bosh wanted a dynamic PG who could penetrate and create opportunities for him, since that was the way the league was going back then, so BC traded PF depth (Charlie V.) for a young PG (Ford)

    2) Bosh wanted to shift to PF because he was sick of getting hammered while playing C and wanted to be able to focus on offense instead of defense (hmmm who does that sound like now), so BC traded PG depth (Ford) for a proven C (O'Neal)

    3) Bosh & O'Neal didn't pan out, Bargnani was looking like a decent talent (and looked to be developing some good chemistry with Bosh) and the overwhelming consensus was that the team was lacking a stud wing, so BC traded C depth (O'Neal) for a proven SF (Marion)

    4) Marion seemed destined to leave the team for nothing and the team drafted a highly touted wing (DeRozan), so BC replaced one proven wing (Marion) with another proven wing who had a glowing reputation as both a distributor and 3-pt shooter (Turkoglu), to help spread the floor and give Bosh more room to operate

    These moves were all home-run style moves that didn't pan out, but BC deserves credit for making them AND for correcting them when they didn't work out. He tried his best to build a solid team around a player perceived to be a franchise player in Bosh... the biggest problem was that Bosh never was a true franchise player... he was a good player on a terrible team. For 7 years, nobody faulted BC for building around Bosh, so don't start knocking him using hindsight!
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Tue Apr 19th, 2011 at 03:47 PM.

  2. #22
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Now it's a 'rebuild' but at the strart of the season it wasn't. Colangelo changes courses and words more frequently than any GM in the league. They made up their mind to go with a rebuild mid-season when he realized that the talent he assembled was shabby and that no trade was going to help them. Thats when the talk turned to youth, rebuilding and injuries, etc.
    No way! BC may have talked a strong game at the start of the season, saying that making the playoffs was the goal, but I would bet that a big % of fans didn't believe that for a second. All the chatter on RR last offseason was that this was going to be a rebuilding year, there was no expectation for this team to win more than 20-25 games. Yes he made moves during the season, but when you have lottery picks in back-to-back seasons and trade away your franchise player for a draft pick and TPE, you're rebuilding no matter what you say or how you spin it!

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    You think Colangelo had more to do with winning that division title and early successes more than Bosh and Mitchell did?
    When there were only 6 returning players from a 27 win team with the same coach only to win 47 games a season later, then yes, I think BC had more to do with it than Mitchell and Bosh.

    I liked some of his acquisitions for that squad (TJ, Parker, Garbo) but they have all fallen off the NBA map (other than Parker playing for a bottom feeder) but Bosh's performance (2nd All NBA team) and Mitchell finding chemistry amongst 8-9 new acquisitions were larger factors to winning than Colangelo was.
    Who acquired the players? This is a chicken and egg discussion and obviously opinions differ. I'll agree to disagree.

    He didn't make 'ballsy' moves to build around Bosh otherwise he would have not drafted Bargnani who is a 'natural 4' as BC has indicated. Gettign O'Neal might be considered corageous but only becasue of his previous injury status. When did he ever cquire a swing who could make some plays down the stretch. Builing with Bosh and around him are 2 different things.
    Swinging for the fences on O'Neal and Turkoglu were ballsy. The man is not afraid to stick his neck out and go for broke. What I like about the current situation is a proper team can be built versus patched together.

    If BC is kept on I expect more of the same. I'm hoping a change is in the works.
    I disagree. The change in style of playes that have been brought in (young, athletic, defensive and/or rebounding minded) is an obvious change in direction. Bargnani and Calderon are the only players left from the BC-stereotype - and I fully expect one or both to be gone before next year.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    You're a Raps fan and you still have hope? I admire your optimism.
    Well that we can agree on! It is certainly makes it harder to stay optimistic on some of these threads, too! lol

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Starter jimmie's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    No way! BC may have talked a strong game at the start of the season, saying that making the playoffs was the goal, but I would bet that a big % of fans didn't believe that for a second. All the chatter on RR last offseason was that this was going to be a rebuilding year, there was no expectation for this team to win more than 20-25 games. Yes he made moves during the season, but when you have lottery picks in back-to-back seasons and trade away your franchise player for a draft pick and TPE, you're rebuilding no matter what you say or how you spin it!
    Not to mention, in his presser, Colangelo said that they turned their minds to a rebuild as soon as the Chandler trade got nixed by Jordan. You may choose to believe whether that's true or not, but it makes sense to me. Had that move gone through, there would have been no room for a rebuild, but the resulting roster (w/ Chandler, Diaw vs. Calderon) would have had a solid chance at the playoffs. When the deal fell off the table, and nothing remotely similar was available, a rebuild became pretty much the only option. I think the team is actually in a better, more exciting position today than had that trade been successful.
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  6. #26
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    You don't have to drink BC koolaid, but you have to be fair too. Every major move BC did was greeted with major approval from the media, fans and his star player (Bosh)... hindsight is 20/20, but BC made the big splash and wasn't afraid to make follow-up moves when they didn't pan out the way everybody expected them to.

    1) Bosh wanted a dynamic PG who could penetrate and create opportunities for him, since that was the way the league was going back then, so BC traded PF depth (Charlie V.) for a young PG (Ford)

    2) Bosh wanted to shift to PF because he was sick of getting hammered while playing C and wanted to be able to focus on offense instead of defense (hmmm who does that sound like now), so BC traded PG depth (Ford) for a proven C (O'Neal)

    3) Bosh & O'Neal didn't pan out, Bargnani was looking like a decent talent (and looked to be developing some good chemistry with Bosh) and the overwhelming consensus was that the team was lacking a stud wing, so BC traded C depth (O'Neal) for a proven SF (Marion)

    4) Marion seemed destined to leave the team for nothing and the team drafted a highly touted wing (DeRozan), so BC replaced one proven wing (Marion) with another proven wing who had a glowing reputation as both a distributor and 3-pt shooter (Turkoglu), to help spread the floor and give Bosh more room to operate

    These moves were all home-run style moves that didn't pan out, but BC deserves credit for making them AND for correcting them when they didn't work out. He tried his best to build a solid team around a player perceived to be a franchise player in Bosh... the biggest problem was that Bosh never was a true franchise player... he was a good player on a terrible team. For 7 years, nobody faulted BC for building around Bosh, so don't start knocking him using hindsight!
    Before assuming that all moves were made with "what Bosh wanted" I will revisit this as you did.

    1) This was the first year of BC's tenure and Bosh wasn't asking him for anything. This was a BC move and a good one for the time being. Bosh started asking for a swing that can take the presssure off the last 2 years in a Raps uniform. He took DeRozan instead of Jennings who would have fit that 'request' more. I like Demar's upside but if you are going to point these things out please do it chronologically and as it happened.

    2) Bosh wanted to play the 4 because he is not a center. I do agree that they tried acquiring JO to help with this issue but before his acquisition and not shortly after the JO trade to Miami he was back to guarding the tougher match-up (center or 4) because of who he was teamed up with in the front court (#7).

    3) Marion is not a stud wing and doesn't create any shots for himself.

    4) DeRozan was unproven and once again not polished nor the type of swing that could make an immediate impact. Turks was playing with 4 other all-stars in Orlando and BC was said to be in love with his game. If you think acquiring Turks ina contract year was solely for appeasing Bosh your not looking at the situation in it's totality. BC didn't have to spend the money but he wanted to make a splash for a player that DID NOT fit his roster.

    He deserves credit for making poor moves in an attempt to build around Bosh? He wasn't building around Bosh only with him no matter what BC would try to make everyone believe.

    And if he tried to build around a player who you clearly say is not a franchise player what does that say about Colangelo? Why waste time (5 years) and resources doing this when your whole outlook was flawed to begin with???

  7. #27
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    [QUOTE=Matt52;78734]When there were only 6 returning players from a 27 win team with the same coach only to win 47 games a season later, then yes, I think BC had more to do with it than Mitchell and Bosh.

    Well he did win an award for GM of the year that year but Mitch won COY and Bosh was 2nd All NBA team. There were no other all-stars on that team so I would side more with the players and coaches than the GM. When Lakers or Celts win championships most of credit is usually attributed to the players that play the game and coaching staff as both are more engaged than the GM but thats your opinion.

    How many players were returning from last years squad that won 40 games? Would you blame him for the regression? Notice that when the coach (Mitchell) got fired the team got progressively worse and haven't seen the playoffs since. When the player (Bosh) left they hit the 3rd worse record in team history. Coincidence?

  8. #28
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Before assuming that all moves were made with "what Bosh wanted" I will revisit this as you did.

    1) This was the first year of BC's tenure and Bosh wasn't asking him for anything. This was a BC move and a good one for the time being. Bosh started asking for a swing that can take the presssure off the last 2 years in a Raps uniform. He took DeRozan instead of Jennings who would have fit that 'request' more. I like Demar's upside but if you are going to point these things out please do it chronologically and as it happened.

    2) Bosh wanted to play the 4 because he is not a center. I do agree that they tried acquiring JO to help with this issue but before his acquisition and not shortly after the JO trade to Miami he was back to guarding the tougher match-up (center or 4) because of who he was teamed up with in the front court (#7).

    3) Marion is not a stud wing and doesn't create any shots for himself.

    4) DeRozan was unproven and once again not polished nor the type of swing that could make an immediate impact. Turks was playing with 4 other all-stars in Orlando and BC was said to be in love with his game. If you think acquiring Turks ina contract year was solely for appeasing Bosh your not looking at the situation in it's totality. BC didn't have to spend the money but he wanted to make a splash for a player that DID NOT fit his roster.

    He deserves credit for making poor moves in an attempt to build around Bosh? He wasn't building around Bosh only with him no matter what BC would try to make everyone believe.

    And if he tried to build around a player who you clearly say is not a franchise player what does that say about Colangelo? Why waste time (5 years) and resources doing this when your whole outlook was flawed to begin with???
    The team, coaches, management, ownership, fans, city, country, media, etc... all agreed with BC's strategy to build around/with Bosh as the centrepiece of the team. All the big moves made by BC were to try and build as strong and deep a team as possible, while keeping Bosh on the pedistal of being "the guy".

    2 offseasons ago I joined RR and was one of very few people that wanted to trade Bosh before his final season under contract started and I was chastised for it all over the place! I was in the extreme minority of people who did not think building around/with Bosh was the right thing to do, but I understand how/why people thought it was and can respect the efforts made by BC.

    This season and now this offseason is truly the first time BC can build the team from the bottom-up the way he wants and nobody is above the team, the way Bosh was. BC has made some good draft picks that past two years and made a couple shrewd moves to dump salary and stockpile assets, which is why I am optimistic about the future direction of this franchise and would like to give BC the chance to continue his methodical approach to rebuilding, putting the long-term sustainability ahead of short-term 'lets just make the playoffs and lose in round-1' attitude that was so prevalent during the Bosh era.

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    But again, there is the what have you done for me lately mentality. He won an Atlantic title, 2 playoff appearances, made ballsy moves to build around Bosh that didn't pan out, and, in less than one season of a rebuild, has the 5th lowest payroll committed for next year, acquired a few young players with upside (Bayless and James Johnson in particluar) and has made two great draft picks at 9 and 13 in the last 2 seasons. The worst of the rebuild is over in my opinion - bad contracts gone (Calderon and Bargnani arguable), high draft pick secured, young players acquired and developing, and financial flexibility means the ball is rolling.

    The team will most likely not compete for the playoffs again next season but for the long term development of the franchise, that is probably in its best interest especially considering the talent coming out next year.

    I don't think anyone has said BC is irreplaceable - if I am wrong, link the post. What people, myself included, are saying is:

    1) he is a very accomplished and good GM,
    2) given no search has begun, what viable candidate will be out there to not only replace him but to be better given his experience,
    3) who better to rebuild a franchise than a GM with a proven track record in the draft,
    4) who better to rebuild a franchise than a Gm with a proven track record of diamonds in the rough,
    5) who better to rebuild a franchise than a GM who is not afraid to pull the trigger on blockbuster deals.

    For a history of the franchise before Colangelo arrived, memory refresher:

    2005-06 NBA Toronto Raptors 27 55
    2004-05 NBA Toronto Raptors 33 49
    2003-04 NBA Toronto Raptors 33 49
    2002-03 NBA Toronto Raptors 24 58
    2001-02 NBA Toronto Raptors* 42 40
    2000-01 NBA Toronto Raptors* 47 35
    1999-00 NBA Toronto Raptors* 45 37
    1998-99 NBA Toronto Raptors 23 27
    1997-98 NBA Toronto Raptors 16 66
    1996-97 NBA Toronto Raptors 30 52
    1995-96 NBA Toronto Raptors 21 61

    And remember the stellar draft picks of the 2000's before BC Michael Bradley, Araujo, Kareem Rush (traded), Charlie V, and Joey Graham of the 2000's. The only solid pick was Bosh in 2003.

    Now recall the record of BC - not stellar this year but considering minus the VC playoff years the most games the Raps EVER won was 33 and all of a sudden it seems apparent how far the franchise has come:

    2010-11 NBA Toronto Raptors 22 60
    2009-10 NBA Toronto Raptors 40 42
    2008-09 NBA Toronto Raptors 33 49
    2007-08 NBA Toronto Raptors* 41 41
    2006-07 NBA Toronto Raptors* 47 35

    If BC is not kept on, I have much less hope moving forward.
    interestin to note that our best year came the year we drafted bargnani.

  10. #30
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Well he did win an award for GM of the year that year but Mitch won COY and Bosh was 2nd All NBA team. There were no other all-stars on that team so I would side more with the players and coaches than the GM. When Lakers or Celts win championships most of credit is usually attributed to the players that play the game and coaching staff as both are more engaged than the GM but thats your opinion.

    How many players were returning from last years squad that won 40 games? Would you blame him for the regression? Notice that when the coach (Mitchell) got fired the team got progressively worse and haven't seen the playoffs since. When the player (Bosh) left they hit the 3rd worse record in team history. Coincidence?
    Well that is sort of my point. He is responsible for the success and the failures. A GM is responsible for every player, coach, support staff on the payroll. You can't credit him with failures while not crediting the success.

    The basis of his failures is only with the benefit of hindsight. The JO trade addressed a need at the time, the Turk sign and trade addressed a need at the time but, unfortunately, neither panned out and Toronto never had the opportunity to get value for Bosh (hence Carmelo Anthony's comment around December, "I'm not Chris Bosh.")

    The fact is he has had more success in five years here than any other stretch of the franchise - even with a 22 win season. There have definitely been some bad breaks (literally and figuratively) but it does not change the fact he is one of the best and most respected GM's around the league.

  11. #31
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    colangelo is the best option as well as triano , unless you can get a guy who has a history for success and won championship(s)(which includes conference titles) you go out and get him or them.

    which right now, i think the only realistic guy you could go after currently is Laimbeer who has had success on the womens side of things and had success as a player.

    But, no experience at the nba level and i'm not sure you want to start him in the middle of the rebuilding process.

    I personally like the plan of Hebsy from Sportsline, he said that nobody is really available who is more qualified than colangelo, so you give him a 3 year deal at the same money he is making now 4m/yr, see what happens.

    Let Triano and Colangelo finish what they started, the only time i think we'll really know colangelo is nipple deep in shits creek is if he fires triano, which i think will be a last resort/forced decision by him.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryan_Colangelo

    Pretty tough to find a guy better than a two time exec. of the year and a guy who put together multiple 50 and even 60 plus win teams.
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  12. #32
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    Quote DunkinDerozan wrote: View Post
    interestin to note that our best year came the year we drafted bargnani.
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  13. #33
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    BC is a good GM, you don't win excutive of the year for nothing.

  14. #34
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    Colangelo has to stay, he is one of the most active GM's we've ever had, for better or for worse. A lot of raptor fans are greedy and want good G.M's to be sacked, and all I can think of, is the Rob Babcock era. He saved us from that, and for that reason alone, I will welcome him back in Toronto with open arms. In addition, the rebuild isn't so bad with Derozan blossoming, Ed Davis being a promising rookie, and Bargnani either as a trade chip, or a fundamental piece which he can still be in the upcoming years. Considering the disgusting amount of money some bums make like Ben Gordon, and Charlie V, etc, bargnani's contract is very attracting as many basketball analysts have already pointed out. I just hope luck can come torontos way and we manage a top 2 pick.

  15. #35
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    Default Poll added. Please vote.


  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    NH in Toronto:
    Looks like BC is ready to trade A. Bargnani. Any actual takers or interest out there? How bout Bargs/Bayless for Jennings and Maggette?

    Steve Kyler:

    I am not sold Colaneglo will be retained... from everything we are hearing coming out of Toronto, its a reach that he's back.

    That said, I don't know its Colangelo's call... I also am not sold that Bargs has a huge market, at least not in terms of an upgrade.

    You can always liquidate players and get less back... but to get items to improve is always hard... that's the art of the deal.

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  17. #37
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    I almost threw up in my mouth when I read that deal. Maggette is as anti ball movement as they come.

  18. #38
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I almost threw up in my mouth when I read that deal. Maggette is as anti ball movement as they come.
    On the plus side, it would allow me to focus my criticism on someone new.
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  19. #39
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    On the plus side, it would allow me to focus my criticism on someone new.
    Too funny.

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