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Thread: Why does Ed Davis make Amir Johnson redundant?

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  1. #1
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    Default Why does Ed Davis make Amir Johnson redundant?

    I've read numerous times that Amir Johnson is now redundant, so he should be traded. Quite frankly, I don't understand this. While Davis and Amir play the same position, I'm not sure how that makes one of them redundant. You still need, at least, three quality big men if you hope to be a decent team. And neither Amir nor Davis have the type of games that will get in the way of one another. This isn't Jermaine O'Neal and Bosh, or Calderon and Turkoglu. We've seen both Amir and Davis work well when they're on the floor together. Because he can hit the 15 footer and play the high pick and roll, Amir has done very well in the high post, while Davis seems best suited for the low post.

    To me, the whole point of rebuilding is to acquire as many assets as you can and keep the ones that will help your team win, if you can, and trade the rest. Now, I'm not against trading Amir if it really makes the team better, but I certainly wouldn't go out and TRY and trade him.

    The way I see it, Amir is optimally a bench player. It's not that I don't think he should be a starter, but he's got the type of high energy game that is probably best coming off the bench. And a player like Amir is rarer than I think many people realize. I think if Amir is traded, the Raptors will end up regretting it because they'll struggle to find a backup big that is as good and helps the team as much as Amir does.

    A front line of whatever center is acquired, Davis and Amir has 96 minutes between them, which means each player could end up playing 32 mpg. More than enough minutes between the three of them.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    yeah,,I'd add that if he continues to improve the way he has so far it would be another point to keep him on the team.Many times this season they both played together and usually that was when the Raptors were making a run.I doubt it is coincidence.And let's not forget that injuries almost always happen so I'm against trading him.Unless it is some kind of great trade for us.And I doubt other team's gms like his game as much as I do.So I'm sure they can co-exist and make the team a lot better.It is not sure but considering the way they work out and the tempo of Ed's adjusting to the nba and his improvement and Amir's growth since he is a raptor I foresee them becoming great players.Not all star players maybe but very good ones.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    This has always sort of confused me too, Amir and Ed are very different players. Amir is almost 24, 6'10" and 210 pounds. If he lived in the gym the guy would never become big, he is simply built thin, and I think he is going to pay the same role he did this year for the foreseeable future: Pick and roll finisher, high energy guy coming off the bench.
    Ed is 21, 215 lbs (listed) and looks like he could easily get up to 240+. He has great touch around the rim and was known for having a good low post game in college, which we have yet to see due to his lack of bulk. I'm an optimist, and I see Ed developing in one of two ways: he gets a jumper and becomes a Garnett type of player or he becomes good in the pick and roll and becomes a (taller thinner) Karl Malone type guy. I'm not saying he'll be as good as those two, but those are the molds I could see him filling into.
    There is also the fact that you can never have too many guys on your team who hustle.
    Last edited by hateslosing; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 05:10 AM.
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    This has always sort of confused me too, Amir and Ed are very different players. Amir is almost 24, 6'10" and 210 pounds. If he lived in the gym the guy would never become big, he is simply built thin, and I think he is going to pay the same role he did this year for the foreseeable future: Pick and roll finisher, high energy guy coming off the bench.
    Ed is 21, 215 lbs (listed) and looks like he could easily get up to 240+. He has great touch around the rim and was known for having a good low post game in college, which we have yet to see due to his lack of bulk. I'm an optimist, and I see Ed developing in one of two ways: he gets a jumper and becomes a Garnett type of player or he becomes good in the pick and roll and becomes a (taller thinner) Karl Malone type guy. I'm not saying he'll be as good as those two, but those are the molds I could see him filling into.
    There is also the fact that you can never have too many guys on your team who hustle.
    Um no, Amir is FAR bigger than Ed. That was the figure when he came into the league at 18.






    Amir is EASILY bigger then 230. He's probably around 235-240.
    Last edited by RaptorsFan4Life; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 08:47 AM.

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    Amir is gone for a center ...Bargnani is staying !! 7 milions for what? are you all freaking serious?
    God it is truth what they saying about canadians and basketball!

    poor offensive game , fouls trouble , defensively useless against big bodies ...keep Davis trade Amir , pretty simple , with Kleiza back you don't even need another extra PF

    Bargnani might leave next season if things are going bad...and only after you see him playin' with a legit centre!

    you must be crazy if you think BC is going to trade 20 points per game for someone who might stay on the bench for fouls trouble!

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    Quote footie wrote: View Post
    Amir is gone for a center ...Bargnani is staying !! 7 milions for what? are you all freaking serious?
    God it is truth what they saying about canadians and basketball!

    poor offensive game , fouls trouble , defensively useless against big bodies ...keep Davis trade Amir , pretty simple , with Kleiza back you don't even need another extra PF

    Bargnani might leave next season if things are going bad...and only after you see him playin' with a legit centre!

    you must be crazy if you think BC is going to trade 20 points per game for someone who might stay on the bench for fouls trouble!
    A couple of questions. Are you talking about Barbosa, because he's the only player on the Raptors making close to $7 million? If you're talking about Amir, then he's actually made $5 million this season. Or were you fudging the numbers in order to try and make a point? Does that mean I can say that Bargnani made $10 million this season to make my point? Amir actually WILL be making $7 million in the last year of his contract, but that same year Bargnani will make $12 million.

    As for Amir's offense, you do realize that Amir is the Raptors most efficient offensive, player, right? And the player who has the most positive impact on the offense, right? Or were you just talking about how many points he scores? Or were you just trying to make stuff up to try and make a point?

    And how exactly would Bargnani "leave" next season? You do realize he's under contract for another four years, right? If you mean just abandon his contract, is there any way we can get him to do it this summer, because that would solve a lot of problems?

    I do find it a little ironic and a little telling that so many of the die-hard Bargnani fans dislike Amir. I guess if you really like Bargnani, then you have no appreciation for hard working big men who defend, rebound and score efficiently.
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    Raptors Republic Starter DunkinDerozan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post

    As for Amir's offense, you do realize that Amir is the Raptors most efficient offensive, player, right? And the player who has the most positive impact on the offense, right? Or were you just talking about how many points he scores? Or were you just trying to make stuff up to try and make a point?
    +10 loool way to take your amir argument to the next level

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    I just think the efficense does not mean much especially if you don't score over 13 - 15 points and jesus he's avereging one rebound per match more than Bargs !!!!
    his defense is not stellar ...and you give up some sure offense for Amir???? the 20 points of Bargs in thise condition are not rubbish if you put another real offensive treat close to him he will improve his % ...

    Anyway on facebook yesterday he said " At the moment I think I can buy the return ticket " so what do you think he means????

    Sorry I think he's someone else who is going to be trade for a big defensive centre ...
    they might trade him next year but only after you see him playin' in his natural position...

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    As for Amir's offense, you do realize that Amir is the Raptors most efficient offensive, player, right? And the player who has the most positive impact on the offense, right? Or were you just talking about how many points he scores? Or were you just trying to make stuff up to try and make a point?
    What exactly did you mean by Amir being the most efficient offensive player on the Raptors? What exactly do you mean by Amir having the most positive impact on the Raptors offense.

    While Amir has the highest TS%, this is not exactly surprising considering:
    1. He finishes very well on the break
    2. He is a good offensive rebounder and can put the ball back in the basket
    3. He is a good free throw shooter
    4. He does not often shoot from a distance (58% of his shots were at the rim)
    The first three are definite positives. Prior to last season, Amir had a 5:1 ratio of shots at the rim vs. shots from 10+ feet. Amir worked with Alex English to develop a mid-range game and it resulted in a 5:2 ratio in 2010-11. His TS% went down but that is the expectation when a player takes a higher percentage of his shots from the 10 to 23 foot range.

    I suspect his TS% will go down even further next year if he spends even more minutes paired off with Ed Davis as he will need to take more mid-range shots than ever before. Yet, I would argue he becomes more valuable to the offense as he improves his versatility, regardless of what the TS% says.

    In my opinion, the TS% is a flawed statistics because it weights heavily in favor of players who shoot a very high percentage of their shots at the rim or a large percentage of their shots from 3-point land. Comparing Amir’s TS% to Andrea’s TS%, when they have an entirely different shot distribution, does not provide much, if any, value.

    TOP 10 TS% for 2010-11 (minimum 500 minutes played)
    1. Tyson Chandler: 69.7 TS% Tyson takes 73% of his shots at the rim (4.0 out of 5.5) and scores 10.1 points per 27.9 minutes (87% of league's average).
    2. Brian Cardinal 66.6 TS%. Brian takes 89% of his shots from 3-point range (1.6 out of 1.8) and scores 2.6 points per 11.0 minutes (57%).
    3. Shaquille O'Neal 65.9 TS%. Shaquille takes 85% of his shot at the rim (4.6 out of 5.4) and scores 9.2 points per 20.3 minutes (109%).
    4. Nene Hilario 65.7 TS%. Nene takes 68% of his shot at the rim (5.9 out of 8.7) and scores 14.5 points per 30.6 minutes (114%).
    5. DeAndre Jordan 64.8 TS%. DeAndre takes 81% of his shots at the rim (3.5 out of 4.3) and scores 7.1 points per 25.6 minutes (67%).
    6. Ronny Turiaf 64.8 TS%. Ronny takes 72% of his shots at the rim (1.8 out of 2.5) and scores 4.2 points per 17.8 minutes (57%).
    7. Ryan Hollins 64.8 TS%. Ryan takes 65% of his shots at the rim (2.0 out of 3.1) and scores 5.3 points per 16.9 minutes (76%).
    8. Chris Andersen 63.7 TS%. Chris takes 80% of his shots at the rim (2.4 out of 3.0) and scores 5.6 points per 16.2 minutes (83%).
    9. Daequan Cook 63.0 TS%. Daequan takes 86% of his shots from 3-point range (3.6 out of 4.2) and scores 5.6 points per 14.0 minutes (96%).
    10. James Jones 62.9 TS%. James takes 81% of his shots from 3-point range (3.5 out of 4.3) and scores 5.9 points per 19.1 minutes (74%).

    Amir Johnson 60.8 TS%. Amir takes 58% of his shots at the rim (4.0 out of 6.9) and scores 9.6 points per 25.7 minutes (90%).

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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    Amir is EASILY bigger then 230. He's probably around 235-240.
    I heard he is easily close to 7 feet now as well since he was 6'9" when he came to the league. I wonder why he does not put the time in the Gym and add some muscle to that body and weight and PLAY the Center.

    Is he just lazy and asking for the organization to bail him out and get him a Center while he can work hard and fill up the role himself ??!!!

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    Quote footie wrote: View Post
    Amir is gone for a center ...Bargnani is staying !! 7 milions for what? are you all freaking serious?
    God it is truth what they saying about canadians and basketball!

    poor offensive game , fouls trouble , defensively useless against big bodies ...keep Davis trade Amir , pretty simple , with Kleiza back you don't even need another extra PF

    Bargnani might leave next season if things are going bad...and only after you see him playin' with a legit centre!

    you must be crazy if you think BC is going to trade 20 points per game for someone who might stay on the bench for fouls trouble!
    bargs is being expendable because of ed not amir, if the right deal comes along amir should be traded.

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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    Um no, Amir is FAR bigger than Ed. That was the figure when he came into the league at 18.

    Amir is EASILY bigger then 230. He's probably around 235-240.
    I have yet to see any stats that indicate Amir is more than 215 and he is listed on at least 6 B-ball sites as 210. Maybe you're right an they just never update their info, but I tend to believe NBA.com is up to date since they have guys like Bargs listed at 250 when they were drafted at 225. The guy does not look like he has put on much weight since he was drafted.
    And he is definitely not 7 feet tall, look at him beside some 7 footers.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've read numerous times that Amir Johnson is now redundant
    Here's the thing... redundancy is not necessarily a bad thing. Would Tim Duncan and a player exactly like Tim Duncan coming off the bench be a bad thing for a team? I don't think so. But that would be "redundant".... Weren't Tim Duncan and David Robinson playing together pretty redundant? Having 5 Lebron James on a team would be redundant, would any coach, GM or fan be opposed to that? Having Marcin Gortat back up Dwight Howard was redundant......

    It doesn't matter at all if they are the same style player or not, atleast not if one is starting and the other is coming off the bench. I'd be perfectly fine with one of them playing C if either of them had enough size to defend that position consistently.

    Amir should not be traded. Period. He was the best player on the team this year, still has potential for growth and at the very least will be a consistent and efficient contributer for years to come.

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    I don't think many people think Amir is redundant and to ship him out "just because". What I do think is that he is a valuable trade asset given the improvements he has shown and his relatively decent contract. If we had to trade him to get something we need more in return I am fine with that. If we keep him and he continues to grow and become a little more consistent, great, we have a solid big man in the rotation.

    I will say this, I was disappointed in his shot blocking this year, in the past in his limited minutes he has shown much better ability to block shots, but in a career high in minutes per game he only 1.2 per game, not bad, but less than what I was expecting.

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    If Ed Davis were a reserve and Amir were a reserve then I could understand someone proclaiming that Ed makes Amir redundant but that's not the case. Only one of them will be a reserve and if they ever hope to be good again and go anywhere they're going to need guys who can defend and rebound coming off the bench. Not to mention on offense Ed looks to be developing inside and Amir continues to add to his face up game. You've missed the boat if you want one of these guys gone because you think they're essentially "the same player." Look at the big picture.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    If Ed Davis were a reserve and Amir were a reserve then I could understand someone proclaiming that Ed makes Amir redundant but that's not the case. Only one of them will be a reserve and if they ever hope to be good again and go anywhere they're going to need guys who can defend and rebound coming off the bench. Not to mention on offense Ed looks to be developing inside and Amir continues to add to his face up game. You've missed the boat if you want one of these guys gone because you think they're essentially "the same player." Look at the big picture.
    And further it works well to mitigate or eliminate drop=off when you go to your second unit. Unless these redundancy theorists can say they WANT a drop-off Amir is a bargain at $5.5M and coming off the bench with energy. Further if one s having a bad day, the other can spell longer minutes to compensate. Both young, both good.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    You finally got fed up commenting numerous times on the same topic huh? hehe

    Nice post.

    I was initially guilty of this as well. Same position, same body type, similarities in game play. I think Amir is a more active player tho, and his hustle play is just outstanding. Ed i think is a better on ball defender while Amir is a better help defender.

    I think the reason why people think theyre redundant is because theyre putting these two players in the same frame, meaning they can both be starters, or can both come off the bench. If you say Amir is a starter, why keep Davis and give him an off the bench role when infact he can also be valued as a starter? why not improve on other positions by trading one? But i dont agree with this logic. Having both of them is definitely good for the team, as like i said, they may be similar, but there are still things that they do differently that makes them both valuable to this team.

    Its like when we had TJ and Jose or Jose and Jarrett. I think its the same concept. The only difference is, well at least currently, Amir and Ed seem to embrace whatever situation theyre thrown in. Amir doesnt mind if he starts or comes off the bench, and same with Ed. I say currently because that was the same situation with the guards in the beginning, but sooner or later, as we saw with the guards, i wont be surprised if either Ed or Amir voices out that they want to start, and then i guess the "redundancy" part will come into play.

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    I'm one of those who has previously argued that it might be in the best interest of the Raptors to see what they can get for Amir. Not that I don't think he and Davis can play together, and not that I wouldn't like to see him remain a Raptor. My argument is more along the lines of the team needing so many other positions upgraded, that Amir is one of the better trade assets to do so, considering the depth the team still has at the 4.

    However. If Davis puts on weight and becomes a legitimate post player - tough and strong interior play - then keeping Amir would probably be best, as he's not, and will not, become that type of player. As it is they are together too small to play real defense in the paint as a tandem. That's where I see their redundancy.

    Moving Barbosa is also a good - and ultimately might be the better - option to move to fill some holes. Weems, no matter what people say, is a more than capable SG, one who would be an excellent choice to backup Derozan. He just shouldn't be playing the 3. So if Barbosa could be moved for a legit piece - either a SF who can shoot and isn't a defensive liability to backup J.Johnson - or a serviceable defensive 5 - then there would be much less of a need to move Amir. I also think, now that the possibility seems to be there, that Bargnani would also be a better candidate for trade than would Amir.

    So, in short, I'm not opposed to seeing what Amir could bring in. I might not make it a priority as there are better trading assets I think (insofar as the Raptor's future is concerned), but there are many holes on the roster, and I agree with BC that no one is untradeable.

    Barbosa (Weems is a much better defender and is much cheaper. Good market value.)
    Bargnani (Team needs a real center. Good market value.)
    Bayless (Not good enough on defense)
    Amir (Ed Davis)

    In that order (and for these reasons), I would see what players/picks I could get in return.

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    They aren't. And even if they were, why is that a bad thing? Any coach would want their most efficient players play 48 minutes a game, if only they didn't get tired. Hustle, defense, rebounding, and high pct. scoring for 48 minutes is what these 2 give you.

    Besides, their games aren't even that similar. Amir is more of a face-up guy, while Ed likes to post up. They don't have to play at the same spot on the floor when they play together since Amir can hit the 15-footer. The only knock on both of them is that they aren't strong enough to defend the "bangers" of the NBA. But by the looks of it, that will be priority no. 1 for Ed this summer.

    I wouldn't want Amir traded unless we get significantly better at another position. I like our set up at the PF. It's the rest of the other positions I am worried about.

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    I am probably one of the people Tim was referring to, as I mentioned Amir being redundant in a couple threads earlier this week. First, as a few people above me have stated, redundancy is not necessarily a bad thing. Second, I am a big fan of both Davis and Amir; they play the same position (should only ever play that one position) and have similar style of game (interior defense, rebounding, hustle, low block offense), which means that likely 95% of the time only one of them will be on the court, making the other player a backup and therefore redundant.

    Next season will be all about continuing the development of the team's young star players, of which Davis is pretty much at the top of the heap. Although Amir is relatively young, Davis should be the starting PF and is the PF of the future for the Raptors franchise. Therefore, Amir will never be more than a $5M veteran backup. To me, if a trade opportunity were to come along that could turn your backup PF into a equally skilled young starter at another position, which would address a weakness in the starting unit, then it's a no-brainer. Also, whether by draft, free agency or trade, there is never a shortage of quality backup PF in the NBA. I would rather have 2 good starters than 1 good starter and 1 good backup.

    It doesn't matter what sport you're talking about, the best trades are the ones when you give up a player from a position of strength where you have depth and acquire a player to fill a hole at a position of weakness. These sorts of trades are usually much more impactful than those where you acquire a player to fill one hole, but create another hole because of the player you trade away. The fact that the Raptors could trade Amir to get a quality starting defensive-minded C, or SF, for example, while still having a high quality starting PF, is an example of a good trade - what makes it good is the REDUNDANCY you are using to fill a hole.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 10:09 AM.

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