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Thread: Why does Ed Davis make Amir Johnson redundant?

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    Default Why does Ed Davis make Amir Johnson redundant?

    I've read numerous times that Amir Johnson is now redundant, so he should be traded. Quite frankly, I don't understand this. While Davis and Amir play the same position, I'm not sure how that makes one of them redundant. You still need, at least, three quality big men if you hope to be a decent team. And neither Amir nor Davis have the type of games that will get in the way of one another. This isn't Jermaine O'Neal and Bosh, or Calderon and Turkoglu. We've seen both Amir and Davis work well when they're on the floor together. Because he can hit the 15 footer and play the high pick and roll, Amir has done very well in the high post, while Davis seems best suited for the low post.

    To me, the whole point of rebuilding is to acquire as many assets as you can and keep the ones that will help your team win, if you can, and trade the rest. Now, I'm not against trading Amir if it really makes the team better, but I certainly wouldn't go out and TRY and trade him.

    The way I see it, Amir is optimally a bench player. It's not that I don't think he should be a starter, but he's got the type of high energy game that is probably best coming off the bench. And a player like Amir is rarer than I think many people realize. I think if Amir is traded, the Raptors will end up regretting it because they'll struggle to find a backup big that is as good and helps the team as much as Amir does.

    A front line of whatever center is acquired, Davis and Amir has 96 minutes between them, which means each player could end up playing 32 mpg. More than enough minutes between the three of them.
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    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    yeah,,I'd add that if he continues to improve the way he has so far it would be another point to keep him on the team.Many times this season they both played together and usually that was when the Raptors were making a run.I doubt it is coincidence.And let's not forget that injuries almost always happen so I'm against trading him.Unless it is some kind of great trade for us.And I doubt other team's gms like his game as much as I do.So I'm sure they can co-exist and make the team a lot better.It is not sure but considering the way they work out and the tempo of Ed's adjusting to the nba and his improvement and Amir's growth since he is a raptor I foresee them becoming great players.Not all star players maybe but very good ones.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star hateslosing's Avatar
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    This has always sort of confused me too, Amir and Ed are very different players. Amir is almost 24, 6'10" and 210 pounds. If he lived in the gym the guy would never become big, he is simply built thin, and I think he is going to pay the same role he did this year for the foreseeable future: Pick and roll finisher, high energy guy coming off the bench.
    Ed is 21, 215 lbs (listed) and looks like he could easily get up to 240+. He has great touch around the rim and was known for having a good low post game in college, which we have yet to see due to his lack of bulk. I'm an optimist, and I see Ed developing in one of two ways: he gets a jumper and becomes a Garnett type of player or he becomes good in the pick and roll and becomes a (taller thinner) Karl Malone type guy. I'm not saying he'll be as good as those two, but those are the molds I could see him filling into.
    There is also the fact that you can never have too many guys on your team who hustle.
    Last edited by hateslosing; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 05:10 AM.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've read numerous times that Amir Johnson is now redundant
    Here's the thing... redundancy is not necessarily a bad thing. Would Tim Duncan and a player exactly like Tim Duncan coming off the bench be a bad thing for a team? I don't think so. But that would be "redundant".... Weren't Tim Duncan and David Robinson playing together pretty redundant? Having 5 Lebron James on a team would be redundant, would any coach, GM or fan be opposed to that? Having Marcin Gortat back up Dwight Howard was redundant......

    It doesn't matter at all if they are the same style player or not, atleast not if one is starting and the other is coming off the bench. I'd be perfectly fine with one of them playing C if either of them had enough size to defend that position consistently.

    Amir should not be traded. Period. He was the best player on the team this year, still has potential for growth and at the very least will be a consistent and efficient contributer for years to come.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    I don't think many people think Amir is redundant and to ship him out "just because". What I do think is that he is a valuable trade asset given the improvements he has shown and his relatively decent contract. If we had to trade him to get something we need more in return I am fine with that. If we keep him and he continues to grow and become a little more consistent, great, we have a solid big man in the rotation.

    I will say this, I was disappointed in his shot blocking this year, in the past in his limited minutes he has shown much better ability to block shots, but in a career high in minutes per game he only 1.2 per game, not bad, but less than what I was expecting.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    If Ed Davis were a reserve and Amir were a reserve then I could understand someone proclaiming that Ed makes Amir redundant but that's not the case. Only one of them will be a reserve and if they ever hope to be good again and go anywhere they're going to need guys who can defend and rebound coming off the bench. Not to mention on offense Ed looks to be developing inside and Amir continues to add to his face up game. You've missed the boat if you want one of these guys gone because you think they're essentially "the same player." Look at the big picture.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    If Ed Davis were a reserve and Amir were a reserve then I could understand someone proclaiming that Ed makes Amir redundant but that's not the case. Only one of them will be a reserve and if they ever hope to be good again and go anywhere they're going to need guys who can defend and rebound coming off the bench. Not to mention on offense Ed looks to be developing inside and Amir continues to add to his face up game. You've missed the boat if you want one of these guys gone because you think they're essentially "the same player." Look at the big picture.
    And further it works well to mitigate or eliminate drop=off when you go to your second unit. Unless these redundancy theorists can say they WANT a drop-off Amir is a bargain at $5.5M and coming off the bench with energy. Further if one s having a bad day, the other can spell longer minutes to compensate. Both young, both good.

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    They aren't. And even if they were, why is that a bad thing? Any coach would want their most efficient players play 48 minutes a game, if only they didn't get tired. Hustle, defense, rebounding, and high pct. scoring for 48 minutes is what these 2 give you.

    Besides, their games aren't even that similar. Amir is more of a face-up guy, while Ed likes to post up. They don't have to play at the same spot on the floor when they play together since Amir can hit the 15-footer. The only knock on both of them is that they aren't strong enough to defend the "bangers" of the NBA. But by the looks of it, that will be priority no. 1 for Ed this summer.

    I wouldn't want Amir traded unless we get significantly better at another position. I like our set up at the PF. It's the rest of the other positions I am worried about.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    You finally got fed up commenting numerous times on the same topic huh? hehe

    Nice post.

    I was initially guilty of this as well. Same position, same body type, similarities in game play. I think Amir is a more active player tho, and his hustle play is just outstanding. Ed i think is a better on ball defender while Amir is a better help defender.

    I think the reason why people think theyre redundant is because theyre putting these two players in the same frame, meaning they can both be starters, or can both come off the bench. If you say Amir is a starter, why keep Davis and give him an off the bench role when infact he can also be valued as a starter? why not improve on other positions by trading one? But i dont agree with this logic. Having both of them is definitely good for the team, as like i said, they may be similar, but there are still things that they do differently that makes them both valuable to this team.

    Its like when we had TJ and Jose or Jose and Jarrett. I think its the same concept. The only difference is, well at least currently, Amir and Ed seem to embrace whatever situation theyre thrown in. Amir doesnt mind if he starts or comes off the bench, and same with Ed. I say currently because that was the same situation with the guards in the beginning, but sooner or later, as we saw with the guards, i wont be surprised if either Ed or Amir voices out that they want to start, and then i guess the "redundancy" part will come into play.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    I am probably one of the people Tim was referring to, as I mentioned Amir being redundant in a couple threads earlier this week. First, as a few people above me have stated, redundancy is not necessarily a bad thing. Second, I am a big fan of both Davis and Amir; they play the same position (should only ever play that one position) and have similar style of game (interior defense, rebounding, hustle, low block offense), which means that likely 95% of the time only one of them will be on the court, making the other player a backup and therefore redundant.

    Next season will be all about continuing the development of the team's young star players, of which Davis is pretty much at the top of the heap. Although Amir is relatively young, Davis should be the starting PF and is the PF of the future for the Raptors franchise. Therefore, Amir will never be more than a $5M veteran backup. To me, if a trade opportunity were to come along that could turn your backup PF into a equally skilled young starter at another position, which would address a weakness in the starting unit, then it's a no-brainer. Also, whether by draft, free agency or trade, there is never a shortage of quality backup PF in the NBA. I would rather have 2 good starters than 1 good starter and 1 good backup.

    It doesn't matter what sport you're talking about, the best trades are the ones when you give up a player from a position of strength where you have depth and acquire a player to fill a hole at a position of weakness. These sorts of trades are usually much more impactful than those where you acquire a player to fill one hole, but create another hole because of the player you trade away. The fact that the Raptors could trade Amir to get a quality starting defensive-minded C, or SF, for example, while still having a high quality starting PF, is an example of a good trade - what makes it good is the REDUNDANCY you are using to fill a hole.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 10:09 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    A front line of whatever center is acquired, Davis and Amir has 96 minutes between them, which means each player could end up playing 32 mpg. More than enough minutes between the three of them.
    Do not forget foul trouble (not talking about Amir, talking about every player ends up in foul trouble at one point or another) and injuries.

    They are not the same player. Hopefully they both have a future in TOR.

    I see ED as the starter and Amir the first big off the bench.

    If they are both starting, unless in case of injury, then the team is in trouble.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I've read numerous times that Amir Johnson is now redundant, so he should be traded. Quite frankly, I don't understand this. While Davis and Amir play the same position, I'm not sure how that makes one of them redundant. You still need, at least, three quality big men if you hope to be a decent team. And neither Amir nor Davis have the type of games that will get in the way of one another. This isn't Jermaine O'Neal and Bosh, or Calderon and Turkoglu. We've seen both Amir and Davis work well when they're on the floor together. Because he can hit the 15 footer and play the high pick and roll, Amir has done very well in the high post, while Davis seems best suited for the low post.

    To me, the whole point of rebuilding is to acquire as many assets as you can and keep the ones that will help your team win, if you can, and trade the rest. Now, I'm not against trading Amir if it really makes the team better, but I certainly wouldn't go out and TRY and trade him.

    The way I see it, Amir is optimally a bench player. It's not that I don't think he should be a starter, but he's got the type of high energy game that is probably best coming off the bench. And a player like Amir is rarer than I think many people realize. I think if Amir is traded, the Raptors will end up regretting it because they'll struggle to find a backup big that is as good and helps the team as much as Amir does.

    A front line of whatever center is acquired, Davis and Amir has 96 minutes between them, which means each player could end up playing 32 mpg. More than enough minutes between the three of them.
    I dont think per-say the Raptors are going to intentionally trade Amir, but they might be forced to down the road. Im hoping not, but like i said, i would be surprised if either him or Ed comes out and says i want to start. As a coach it would be great to have both these guys but if was either Ed or Amir and i know i can potentially start, why would i allow myself to come off the bench? specially we know how young these guys are, they want to be able to establish their identities early in their careers. And with Amir coming out saying he wants to be a leader in this team could be a potential snag in this Ed-Amir pairing.

    Maybe they can start side by side coz i think either of them can play the C position, but they might not fare too well with the likes of DHoward, Bynum, Gasol or other centers who muscle their way around the paint.

    If the Raps are forced to trade one of them, id probably go with Amir. I guess Ed is the logical choice to retain, younger and definitely has more potential. Have we seen Amir's ceiling this season? Possibly. Does last season merit him a starting job for next season? IMO, no. He's been in the league 6 years and hasnt gone over the hump, so to speak. The argument can be thrown out there that his career in Detroit should be considered a wash because they never gave him playing time because the 2 wallaces were there and then C-webb, but Maxiel was there. They came to Detroit at the same time and yet maxiel was getting minutes and Amir wasnt.

    I pray that Amir doesnt wake up one day and say "I want to start" because having both him and Ed in the rotation paired with a monster center would definitely take this team farther than we've ever seen.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 10:27 AM.

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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    I'm one of those who has previously argued that it might be in the best interest of the Raptors to see what they can get for Amir. Not that I don't think he and Davis can play together, and not that I wouldn't like to see him remain a Raptor. My argument is more along the lines of the team needing so many other positions upgraded, that Amir is one of the better trade assets to do so, considering the depth the team still has at the 4.

    However. If Davis puts on weight and becomes a legitimate post player - tough and strong interior play - then keeping Amir would probably be best, as he's not, and will not, become that type of player. As it is they are together too small to play real defense in the paint as a tandem. That's where I see their redundancy.

    Moving Barbosa is also a good - and ultimately might be the better - option to move to fill some holes. Weems, no matter what people say, is a more than capable SG, one who would be an excellent choice to backup Derozan. He just shouldn't be playing the 3. So if Barbosa could be moved for a legit piece - either a SF who can shoot and isn't a defensive liability to backup J.Johnson - or a serviceable defensive 5 - then there would be much less of a need to move Amir. I also think, now that the possibility seems to be there, that Bargnani would also be a better candidate for trade than would Amir.

    So, in short, I'm not opposed to seeing what Amir could bring in. I might not make it a priority as there are better trading assets I think (insofar as the Raptor's future is concerned), but there are many holes on the roster, and I agree with BC that no one is untradeable.

    Barbosa (Weems is a much better defender and is much cheaper. Good market value.)
    Bargnani (Team needs a real center. Good market value.)
    Bayless (Not good enough on defense)
    Amir (Ed Davis)

    In that order (and for these reasons), I would see what players/picks I could get in return.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Another thought I had...

    Right now, Amir's value is pretty high and is probably perceived by other GM's to be a relatively young starting PF with experience and a fairly attractive contract --> his trade value is high.

    If next year comes along and Davis supplants Amir as the starting PF, then Amir's value will start to decline, due to a growing perception that he is a $5M backup instead of a starter --> his trade value will decrease.

    I am not pushing for an Amir trade. I am simply pointing out the fact that if a good deal came along, the Raps should seriously consider it if they are able to trade Amir for an equal quality player who could start for the team at a different position. Davis is the future of the franchise at PF, meaning Amir's trade value is likely to do nothing but drop from the start of next season onward... so many people are advocating a trade of Bargnani over him becoming a backup, to maximize the return for him in a trade... wouldn't the same logic apply to Amir???

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    The problem I have with this is that basketball isn't the stock market. Amir Johnson is very valuable to the Raptors. He works hard, he's a excellent person and he wants to take on a leadership role. He is the sort of player that you would find in an elite organization like the Spurs. As you know, the Spurs rarely let go of guys like this. I feel it's part of the reason why they're so successful. Who cares what Amir's market value is. We should be happy the Raptors have a player who makes such a positive impact at a very affordable price. Truth be told, on most good teams Amir is nothing but a rotation guy. 6th man at best. They need to keep him. They're not getting anything back for him better than he is.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    The problem I have with this is that basketball isn't the stock market. Amir Johnson is very valuable to the Raptors. He works hard, he's a excellent person and he wants to take on a leadership role. He is the sort of player that you would find in an elite organization like the Spurs. As you know, the Spurs rarely let go of guys like this. I feel it's part of the reason why they're so successful. Who cares what Amir's market value is. We should be happy the Raptors have a player who makes such a positive impact at a very affordable price. Truth be told, on most good teams Amir is nothing but a rotation guy. 6th man at best. They need to keep him.
    Everything you said is absolutely valid. If the Raps can't get a solid starter in return for him, then that is exactly the role I envision for Amir next season and will be thrilled to have him coming back to represent the Raptors, Toronto and Canada.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Fully's Avatar
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    As good as Davis looked this year at times, I don't think he's ready to start just yet nor is he equipped to log 35 minutes a night. By moving Johnson, not only do you remove one of the Raptor's most efficient players from last season and a guy who has emerged as one of the leaders behind the positive vibes in Toronto, but you're putting unnecessary pressure on Davis as well.

    I think everyone needs to be a little more patient with the "rebuild". It's not going to all come together in one offseason. The team won't be any worse off with Amir in the lineup next season then it would be with whatever player they trade him for so why risk botching the chemistry, turning off the other young guys on the team and wearing out ED in the process? Just so you can say you filled a hole at a certain position? What kind of player do you expect to get back for Amir anyway?

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    The problem I have with this is that basketball isn't the stock market. Amir Johnson is very valuable to the Raptors. He works hard, he's a excellent person and he wants to take on a leadership role. He is the sort of player that you would find in an elite organization like the Spurs. As you know, the Spurs rarely let go of guys like this. I feel it's part of the reason why they're so successful. Who cares what Amir's market value is. We should be happy the Raptors have a player who makes such a positive impact at a very affordable price. Truth be told, on most good teams Amir is nothing but a rotation guy. 6th man at best. They need to keep him. They're not getting anything back for him better than he is.
    I agree. A team like the Spurs, Lakers, Celtics would die for a player like a Amir. And it would be outstanding to have a player on your roster that elite teams covet. But IMO, the value that Amir would bring to these elite teams, is not the same value the Raptors would demand of Amir. You cant publicly state he "was our MVP last season" Our best player last year bar-none" and not promote him next season in any way shape or form. If i was Amir, well, if you guys think i did great last year, then dont i deserve a little bit more next year? and the only 2 things i can think that he can demand of is to be a starter, or more minutes. Can the Raps give either one to Amir? Sure. Because of where the Raps are right now. but i think if we really want to shape this roster into contention, amir will definitely be an off the bench player for this team.

    like i said, i hope and pray he doesnt demand either of the two or else, this will cause another situation for the raps.

  19. #19
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Amir can play a big role off the bench. He can get big minutes there. He's a team guy and I don't think there will be any problems with him playing off the bench.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Amir can play a big role off the bench. He can get big minutes there. He's a team guy and I don't think there will be any problems with him playing off the bench.
    i pray to god youre right.

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