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Thread: Why does Ed Davis make Amir Johnson redundant?

  1. #61
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    Quote hateslosing wrote: View Post
    This has always sort of confused me too, Amir and Ed are very different players. Amir is almost 24, 6'10" and 210 pounds. If he lived in the gym the guy would never become big, he is simply built thin, and I think he is going to pay the same role he did this year for the foreseeable future: Pick and roll finisher, high energy guy coming off the bench.
    Ed is 21, 215 lbs (listed) and looks like he could easily get up to 240+. He has great touch around the rim and was known for having a good low post game in college, which we have yet to see due to his lack of bulk. I'm an optimist, and I see Ed developing in one of two ways: he gets a jumper and becomes a Garnett type of player or he becomes good in the pick and roll and becomes a (taller thinner) Karl Malone type guy. I'm not saying he'll be as good as those two, but those are the molds I could see him filling into.
    There is also the fact that you can never have too many guys on your team who hustle.
    Um no, Amir is FAR bigger than Ed. That was the figure when he came into the league at 18.






    Amir is EASILY bigger then 230. He's probably around 235-240.
    Last edited by RaptorsFan4Life; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 08:47 AM.

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    Amir is gone for a center ...Bargnani is staying !! 7 milions for what? are you all freaking serious?
    God it is truth what they saying about canadians and basketball!

    poor offensive game , fouls trouble , defensively useless against big bodies ...keep Davis trade Amir , pretty simple , with Kleiza back you don't even need another extra PF

    Bargnani might leave next season if things are going bad...and only after you see him playin' with a legit centre!

    you must be crazy if you think BC is going to trade 20 points per game for someone who might stay on the bench for fouls trouble!

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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    Amir is EASILY bigger then 230. He's probably around 235-240.
    I heard he is easily close to 7 feet now as well since he was 6'9" when he came to the league. I wonder why he does not put the time in the Gym and add some muscle to that body and weight and PLAY the Center.

    Is he just lazy and asking for the organization to bail him out and get him a Center while he can work hard and fill up the role himself ??!!!

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    Quote footie wrote: View Post
    Amir is gone for a center ...Bargnani is staying !! 7 milions for what? are you all freaking serious?
    God it is truth what they saying about canadians and basketball!

    poor offensive game , fouls trouble , defensively useless against big bodies ...keep Davis trade Amir , pretty simple , with Kleiza back you don't even need another extra PF

    Bargnani might leave next season if things are going bad...and only after you see him playin' with a legit centre!

    you must be crazy if you think BC is going to trade 20 points per game for someone who might stay on the bench for fouls trouble!
    A couple of questions. Are you talking about Barbosa, because he's the only player on the Raptors making close to $7 million? If you're talking about Amir, then he's actually made $5 million this season. Or were you fudging the numbers in order to try and make a point? Does that mean I can say that Bargnani made $10 million this season to make my point? Amir actually WILL be making $7 million in the last year of his contract, but that same year Bargnani will make $12 million.

    As for Amir's offense, you do realize that Amir is the Raptors most efficient offensive, player, right? And the player who has the most positive impact on the offense, right? Or were you just talking about how many points he scores? Or were you just trying to make stuff up to try and make a point?

    And how exactly would Bargnani "leave" next season? You do realize he's under contract for another four years, right? If you mean just abandon his contract, is there any way we can get him to do it this summer, because that would solve a lot of problems?

    I do find it a little ironic and a little telling that so many of the die-hard Bargnani fans dislike Amir. I guess if you really like Bargnani, then you have no appreciation for hard working big men who defend, rebound and score efficiently.
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  5. #65
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post

    As for Amir's offense, you do realize that Amir is the Raptors most efficient offensive, player, right? And the player who has the most positive impact on the offense, right? Or were you just talking about how many points he scores? Or were you just trying to make stuff up to try and make a point?
    +10 loool way to take your amir argument to the next level

  6. #66
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    I just think the efficense does not mean much especially if you don't score over 13 - 15 points and jesus he's avereging one rebound per match more than Bargs !!!!
    his defense is not stellar ...and you give up some sure offense for Amir???? the 20 points of Bargs in thise condition are not rubbish if you put another real offensive treat close to him he will improve his % ...

    Anyway on facebook yesterday he said " At the moment I think I can buy the return ticket " so what do you think he means????

    Sorry I think he's someone else who is going to be trade for a big defensive centre ...
    they might trade him next year but only after you see him playin' in his natural position...

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    Quote footie wrote: View Post
    Amir is gone for a center ...Bargnani is staying !! 7 milions for what? are you all freaking serious?
    God it is truth what they saying about canadians and basketball!

    poor offensive game , fouls trouble , defensively useless against big bodies ...keep Davis trade Amir , pretty simple , with Kleiza back you don't even need another extra PF

    Bargnani might leave next season if things are going bad...and only after you see him playin' with a legit centre!

    you must be crazy if you think BC is going to trade 20 points per game for someone who might stay on the bench for fouls trouble!
    bargs is being expendable because of ed not amir, if the right deal comes along amir should be traded.

  8. #68
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    Quote footie wrote: View Post
    I just think the efficense does not mean much especially if you don't score over 13 - 15 points and jesus he's avereging one rebound per match more than Bargs !!!!
    his defense is not stellar ...and you give up some sure offense for Amir???? the 20 points of Bargs in thise condition are not rubbish if you put another real offensive treat close to him he will improve his % ...

    Anyway on facebook yesterday he said " At the moment I think I can buy the return ticket " so what do you think he means????

    Sorry I think he's someone else who is going to be trade for a big defensive centre ...
    they might trade him next year but only after you see him playin' in his natural position...
    amir plays 10 mins less than bargs i suggest you look at more than just his per game stats when judging players.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    I just voted, so make that 17 out of 31. Or another way of putting it is that only 5 out of 31 think he won't be traded.
    I did not vote - nor could I given the choices - but I am not in favor of trading Bargnani. I would like to keep Bargnani, A Johnson, and Davis, and add a defensive center who can play 20-24 minutes a game.

    I am cautiously optimist about next year because the Five-Man Floor Unit data shows Bargnani-A Johnson is a good pairing and that, while this is far more of an unclear situation, the same could be true of a Bargnani-Davis pairing, especially if J Johnson is also on the floor.

  10. #70
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    I did not vote - nor could I given the choices - but I am not in favor of trading Bargnani. I would like to keep Bargnani, A Johnson, and Davis, and add a defensive center who can play 20-24 minutes a game.

    I am cautiously optimist about next year because the Five-Man Floor Unit data shows Bargnani-A Johnson is a good pairing and that, while this is far more of an unclear situation, the same could be true of a Bargnani-Davis pairing, especially if J Johnson is also on the floor.
    While the statistical pool is much smaller, the Ed Davis-Amir Johnson pairing is even better. And, overall, Bargnani has a negative impact on the team when he's on the floor, whereas Amir has a positive impact. Davis, at this point, does not, but that's quite normal for rookies. That is likely to change next season.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    As for Amir's offense, you do realize that Amir is the Raptors most efficient offensive, player, right? And the player who has the most positive impact on the offense, right? Or were you just talking about how many points he scores? Or were you just trying to make stuff up to try and make a point?
    What exactly did you mean by Amir being the most efficient offensive player on the Raptors? What exactly do you mean by Amir having the most positive impact on the Raptors offense.

    While Amir has the highest TS%, this is not exactly surprising considering:
    1. He finishes very well on the break
    2. He is a good offensive rebounder and can put the ball back in the basket
    3. He is a good free throw shooter
    4. He does not often shoot from a distance (58% of his shots were at the rim)
    The first three are definite positives. Prior to last season, Amir had a 5:1 ratio of shots at the rim vs. shots from 10+ feet. Amir worked with Alex English to develop a mid-range game and it resulted in a 5:2 ratio in 2010-11. His TS% went down but that is the expectation when a player takes a higher percentage of his shots from the 10 to 23 foot range.

    I suspect his TS% will go down even further next year if he spends even more minutes paired off with Ed Davis as he will need to take more mid-range shots than ever before. Yet, I would argue he becomes more valuable to the offense as he improves his versatility, regardless of what the TS% says.

    In my opinion, the TS% is a flawed statistics because it weights heavily in favor of players who shoot a very high percentage of their shots at the rim or a large percentage of their shots from 3-point land. Comparing Amir’s TS% to Andrea’s TS%, when they have an entirely different shot distribution, does not provide much, if any, value.

    TOP 10 TS% for 2010-11 (minimum 500 minutes played)
    1. Tyson Chandler: 69.7 TS% Tyson takes 73% of his shots at the rim (4.0 out of 5.5) and scores 10.1 points per 27.9 minutes (87% of league's average).
    2. Brian Cardinal 66.6 TS%. Brian takes 89% of his shots from 3-point range (1.6 out of 1.8) and scores 2.6 points per 11.0 minutes (57%).
    3. Shaquille O'Neal 65.9 TS%. Shaquille takes 85% of his shot at the rim (4.6 out of 5.4) and scores 9.2 points per 20.3 minutes (109%).
    4. Nene Hilario 65.7 TS%. Nene takes 68% of his shot at the rim (5.9 out of 8.7) and scores 14.5 points per 30.6 minutes (114%).
    5. DeAndre Jordan 64.8 TS%. DeAndre takes 81% of his shots at the rim (3.5 out of 4.3) and scores 7.1 points per 25.6 minutes (67%).
    6. Ronny Turiaf 64.8 TS%. Ronny takes 72% of his shots at the rim (1.8 out of 2.5) and scores 4.2 points per 17.8 minutes (57%).
    7. Ryan Hollins 64.8 TS%. Ryan takes 65% of his shots at the rim (2.0 out of 3.1) and scores 5.3 points per 16.9 minutes (76%).
    8. Chris Andersen 63.7 TS%. Chris takes 80% of his shots at the rim (2.4 out of 3.0) and scores 5.6 points per 16.2 minutes (83%).
    9. Daequan Cook 63.0 TS%. Daequan takes 86% of his shots from 3-point range (3.6 out of 4.2) and scores 5.6 points per 14.0 minutes (96%).
    10. James Jones 62.9 TS%. James takes 81% of his shots from 3-point range (3.5 out of 4.3) and scores 5.9 points per 19.1 minutes (74%).

    Amir Johnson 60.8 TS%. Amir takes 58% of his shots at the rim (4.0 out of 6.9) and scores 9.6 points per 25.7 minutes (90%).

  12. #72
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    What exactly did you mean by Amir being the most efficient offensive player on the Raptors? What exactly do you mean by Amir having the most positive impact on the Raptors offense.

    While Amir has the highest TS%, this is not exactly surprising considering:
    1. He finishes very well on the break
    2. He is a good offensive rebounder and can put the ball back in the basket
    3. He is a good free throw shooter
    4. He does not often shoot from a distance (58% of his shots were at the rim)
    The first three are definite positives. Prior to last season, Amir had a 5:1 ratio of shots at the rim vs. shots from 10+ feet. Amir worked with Alex English to develop a mid-range game and it resulted in a 5:2 ratio in 2010-11. His TS% went down but that is the expectation when a player takes a higher percentage of his shots from the 10 to 23 foot range.

    I suspect his TS% will go down even further next year if he spends even more minutes paired off with Ed Davis as he will need to take more mid-range shots than ever before. Yet, I would argue he becomes more valuable to the offense as he improves his versatility, regardless of what the TS% says.

    In my opinion, the TS% is a flawed statistics because it weights heavily in favor of players who shoot a very high percentage of their shots at the rim or a large percentage of their shots from 3-point land. Comparing Amir’s TS% to Andrea’s TS%, when they have an entirely different shot distribution, does not provide much, if any, value.

    TOP 10 TS% for 2010-11 (minimum 500 minutes played)
    1. Tyson Chandler: 69.7 TS% Tyson takes 73% of his shots at the rim (4.0 out of 5.5) and scores 10.1 points per 27.9 minutes (87% of league's average).
    2. Brian Cardinal 66.6 TS%. Brian takes 89% of his shots from 3-point range (1.6 out of 1.8) and scores 2.6 points per 11.0 minutes (57%).
    3. Shaquille O'Neal 65.9 TS%. Shaquille takes 85% of his shot at the rim (4.6 out of 5.4) and scores 9.2 points per 20.3 minutes (109%).
    4. Nene Hilario 65.7 TS%. Nene takes 68% of his shot at the rim (5.9 out of 8.7) and scores 14.5 points per 30.6 minutes (114%).
    5. DeAndre Jordan 64.8 TS%. DeAndre takes 81% of his shots at the rim (3.5 out of 4.3) and scores 7.1 points per 25.6 minutes (67%).
    6. Ronny Turiaf 64.8 TS%. Ronny takes 72% of his shots at the rim (1.8 out of 2.5) and scores 4.2 points per 17.8 minutes (57%).
    7. Ryan Hollins 64.8 TS%. Ryan takes 65% of his shots at the rim (2.0 out of 3.1) and scores 5.3 points per 16.9 minutes (76%).
    8. Chris Andersen 63.7 TS%. Chris takes 80% of his shots at the rim (2.4 out of 3.0) and scores 5.6 points per 16.2 minutes (83%).
    9. Daequan Cook 63.0 TS%. Daequan takes 86% of his shots from 3-point range (3.6 out of 4.2) and scores 5.6 points per 14.0 minutes (96%).
    10. James Jones 62.9 TS%. James takes 81% of his shots from 3-point range (3.5 out of 4.3) and scores 5.9 points per 19.1 minutes (74%).

    Amir Johnson 60.8 TS%. Amir takes 58% of his shots at the rim (4.0 out of 6.9) and scores 9.6 points per 25.7 minutes (90%).
    I'm not just talking about shooting percentage. He obviously hits a high percentage of his shots, but more to the point, he scores more points per shot than anyone on the team. And he shoots a high percentage from the line. When people argue that Amir isn't a good offensive player, it appears they don't really understand what that means. He's not a very good scorer, but he's still a good offensive player in that he's got a very positive impact on the offensive when he's on the floor.
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    ... he (Amir) scores more points per shot than anyone on the team. And he shoots a high percentage from the line.
    That's exactly what the TS% measures.

    Can we leave it as Amir being a slightly below average scorer but very effective at what he does? As I wrote earlier, I expect he will have a lower TS% next year but will play a bigger part in the offense if he is paired up with Ed Davis.

    I like Amir, I like Andrea, and I like Ed, and I don't see any imperative to trade any of them until it's proven one of the pairs is very ineffective on the court. The big hole in my opinion is the fourth big as I am not a believer in Evans, Ajinca, or Dorsey being able to fulfill a complimentary role.

    One player I would not let go of so quickly is Solomon Alabi despite him being very, very raw. His strengths, if he becomes serviceable in 2-3 years, would compliment the current trio well. A long-shot for sure but as long as he's cheap, why not?

  14. #74
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    Quote Hugmenot wrote: View Post
    That's exactly what the TS% measures.

    Can we leave it as Amir being a slightly below average scorer but very effective at what he does? As I wrote earlier, I expect he will have a lower TS% next year but will play a bigger part in the offense if he is paired up with Ed Davis.

    I like Amir, I like Andrea, and I like Ed, and I don't see any imperative to trade any of them until it's proven one of the pairs is very ineffective on the court. The big hole in my opinion is the fourth big as I am not a believer in Evans, Ajinca, or Dorsey being able to fulfill a complimentary role.

    One player I would not let go of so quickly is Solomon Alabi despite him being very, very raw. His strengths, if he becomes serviceable in 2-3 years, would compliment the current trio well. A long-shot for sure but as long as he's cheap, why not?
    I didn't realize that TS% also included points per shot, but I do get what you're saying. And I agree that with more usage Amir's efficiency would decline, but the point of my argument was to dispute footie's fallacious claim that Amir has a poor offensive game. I'm not suggesting he has a great game, but there no way on earth you can reasonably claim he has a poor offensive game, because, while he isn't a good scorer, his efficiency and offensive rebounding make up for it.

    I agree about holding onto Alibi. It's just too early to make any judgements on him, I think.
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    I think the Ed/Amir situation bears a lot of resemblance to the Demar/Sonny situation of a year ago. While it's become pretty clear that Demar's the superior player, that conclusion was far less certain last year. Right now Amir's got the more polished game (especially offensively with the mid-range jumper) just like Sonny had, but if we cast the Demar role onto Ed and assume that his younger age and greater potential will elevate him above Amir in his sophomore season, then it should be pretty clear who the better player is by this time next year.

    Having said that, the comparison breaks down in the fact that Sonny's become expendable because you can't have two key wing players who play below average D and can't shoot the 3. I don't think that Amir ever really will be considered expendable, the reason being that both he and Davis provide the things that you want out of a big man (defend, rebound, block shots) and so BC would need to get a pretty good return for him. Like some others have said, if the right offer comes along you take it and Amir probably is the player you're more likely to trade of the two already, but keeping him will also do you no harm.
    Last edited by TSN3; Fri Apr 22nd, 2011 at 05:22 PM.

  16. #76
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    tsn2 is a smart man.

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    Quote RaptorsFan4Life wrote: View Post
    Um no, Amir is FAR bigger than Ed. That was the figure when he came into the league at 18.

    Amir is EASILY bigger then 230. He's probably around 235-240.
    I have yet to see any stats that indicate Amir is more than 215 and he is listed on at least 6 B-ball sites as 210. Maybe you're right an they just never update their info, but I tend to believe NBA.com is up to date since they have guys like Bargs listed at 250 when they were drafted at 225. The guy does not look like he has put on much weight since he was drafted.
    And he is definitely not 7 feet tall, look at him beside some 7 footers.
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