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Why does Ed Davis make Amir Johnson redundant?

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  • #16
    Apollo wrote: View Post
    The problem I have with this is that basketball isn't the stock market. Amir Johnson is very valuable to the Raptors. He works hard, he's a excellent person and he wants to take on a leadership role. He is the sort of player that you would find in an elite organization like the Spurs. As you know, the Spurs rarely let go of guys like this. I feel it's part of the reason why they're so successful. Who cares what Amir's market value is. We should be happy the Raptors have a player who makes such a positive impact at a very affordable price. Truth be told, on most good teams Amir is nothing but a rotation guy. 6th man at best. They need to keep him.
    Everything you said is absolutely valid. If the Raps can't get a solid starter in return for him, then that is exactly the role I envision for Amir next season and will be thrilled to have him coming back to represent the Raptors, Toronto and Canada.

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    • #17
      As good as Davis looked this year at times, I don't think he's ready to start just yet nor is he equipped to log 35 minutes a night. By moving Johnson, not only do you remove one of the Raptor's most efficient players from last season and a guy who has emerged as one of the leaders behind the positive vibes in Toronto, but you're putting unnecessary pressure on Davis as well.

      I think everyone needs to be a little more patient with the "rebuild". It's not going to all come together in one offseason. The team won't be any worse off with Amir in the lineup next season then it would be with whatever player they trade him for so why risk botching the chemistry, turning off the other young guys on the team and wearing out ED in the process? Just so you can say you filled a hole at a certain position? What kind of player do you expect to get back for Amir anyway?

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      • #18
        Apollo wrote: View Post
        The problem I have with this is that basketball isn't the stock market. Amir Johnson is very valuable to the Raptors. He works hard, he's a excellent person and he wants to take on a leadership role. He is the sort of player that you would find in an elite organization like the Spurs. As you know, the Spurs rarely let go of guys like this. I feel it's part of the reason why they're so successful. Who cares what Amir's market value is. We should be happy the Raptors have a player who makes such a positive impact at a very affordable price. Truth be told, on most good teams Amir is nothing but a rotation guy. 6th man at best. They need to keep him. They're not getting anything back for him better than he is.
        I agree. A team like the Spurs, Lakers, Celtics would die for a player like a Amir. And it would be outstanding to have a player on your roster that elite teams covet. But IMO, the value that Amir would bring to these elite teams, is not the same value the Raptors would demand of Amir. You cant publicly state he "was our MVP last season" Our best player last year bar-none" and not promote him next season in any way shape or form. If i was Amir, well, if you guys think i did great last year, then dont i deserve a little bit more next year? and the only 2 things i can think that he can demand of is to be a starter, or more minutes. Can the Raps give either one to Amir? Sure. Because of where the Raps are right now. but i think if we really want to shape this roster into contention, amir will definitely be an off the bench player for this team.

        like i said, i hope and pray he doesnt demand either of the two or else, this will cause another situation for the raps.

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        • #19
          Amir can play a big role off the bench. He can get big minutes there. He's a team guy and I don't think there will be any problems with him playing off the bench.

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          • #20
            Apollo wrote: View Post
            Amir can play a big role off the bench. He can get big minutes there. He's a team guy and I don't think there will be any problems with him playing off the bench.
            i pray to god youre right.

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            • #21
              I strongly feel that Amir Johnson is not narcissistic and he genuinely likes his teammates and playing in Toronto. I could be misreading it all though. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors.

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              • #22
                From dictionary.com:

                World English Dictionary
                redundant (rɪˈdʌndənt)

                — adj
                1. surplus to requirements; unnecessary or superfluous
                2. verbose or tautological
                3. deprived of one's job because it is no longer necessary for efficient operation: he has been made redundant
                4. (of components, information, etc) duplicated or added as a precaution against failure, error, etc


                Only 1 PF is required in the starting lineup and having two players at the same position with similar style of game is duplication. This thread was about the redundancy of Davis & Amir, not about whether or not they can/should be on the same team. I would be thrilled to have them both on the Raptors roster next season, but there is absolutely redundancy between them.

                Even if there is redundancy, it doesn't mean that one of them must be traded.
                Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Apr 20, 2011, 11:16 AM.

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                • #23
                  Fully wrote: View Post
                  As good as Davis looked this year at times, I don't think he's ready to start just yet nor is he equipped to log 35 minutes a night. By moving Johnson, not only do you remove one of the Raptor's most efficient players from last season and a guy who has emerged as one of the leaders behind the positive vibes in Toronto, but you're putting unnecessary pressure on Davis as well.

                  I think everyone needs to be a little more patient with the "rebuild". It's not going to all come together in one offseason. The team won't be any worse off with Amir in the lineup next season then it would be with whatever player they trade him for so why risk botching the chemistry, turning off the other young guys on the team and wearing out ED in the process? Just so you can say you filled a hole at a certain position? What kind of player do you expect to get back for Amir anyway?
                  I agree. i think davis needs one or two at the most seasons to tinker with his game and then we'll see if he's starter material.

                  But here's the dilemma, if there's a really good offer on the table, how do you pass up on that? i honestly think Amir's value in the market is way higher than what we're thinking. i mean if bonner found his niche with a team like the spurs, what more Amir?? i agree with calgaryraps - the best trades are the ones when you give up a player from a position of strength where you have depth and acquire a player to fill a hole at a position of weakness. so hopefully when we give up amir, the other team is giving up somebody as valuable as amir, but in a position that we can use.

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                  • #24
                    Apollo wrote: View Post
                    I strongly feel that Amir Johnson is not narcissistic and he genuinely likes his teammates and playing in Toronto. I could be misreading it all though. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors.
                    well, if a guy as nice as Jose demanded a starting job.....

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                    • #25
                      I think the only reason Amir is 'redundant' is because of his contract. We basically get the same production out of Ed on his rookie contract. I would love to keep amir, and if we trade Bargs we should deffinately keep those two as our PFs.

                      If Bargs stay, we should trade amir, although I question that fact that Bargnani is actually a legit Pf, its hard to play him at center after he said he wasn't a center and his teammates basically said that same thing.

                      He isn't necasarilly redundant, but if we do find a center without trading Bargs, he becomes excessive.

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                      • #26
                        tbihis wrote: View Post
                        well, if a guy as nice as Jose demanded a starting job.....
                        He didn't. He waited until free agency and let it be known that starting was an important condition in him signing anywhere. I think that was more a political move. I feel there was tension between him and TJ near the end and it was Jose's way of saying "me or him".

                        WBG416 wrote: View Post
                        I think the only reason Amir is 'redundant' is because of his contract. We basically get the same production out of Ed on his rookie contract. I would love to keep amir, and if we trade Bargs we should deffinately keep those two as our PFs.
                        Rookie scale doesn't quantify real market worth.

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                        • #27
                          Apollo wrote: View Post
                          He didn't. He waited until free agency and let it be known that starting was an important condition in him signing anywhere. I think that was more a political move. I feel there was tension between him and TJ near the end and it was Jose's way of saying "me or him".
                          oh yeah, i think that is right. well hopefully no tension arises between Amir and Ed, but i dont think it would take tension for him to demand a starting job. it can only take one person in his camp to whisper in his ear and tell him this is what you deserve and therefore should demand.

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                          • #28
                            tbihis wrote: View Post
                            I agree. i think davis needs one or two at the most seasons to tinker with his game and then we'll see if he's starter material.

                            But here's the dilemma, if there's a really good offer on the table, how do you pass up on that? i honestly think Amir's value in the market is way higher than what we're thinking. i mean if bonner found his niche with a team like the spurs, what more Amir?? i agree with calgaryraps - the best trades are the ones when you give up a player from a position of strength where you have depth and acquire a player to fill a hole at a position of weakness. so hopefully when we give up amir, the other team is giving up somebody as valuable as amir, but in a position that we can use.
                            I disagree that we're underestimating Amir's trade value right now. Would a lot of teams want him? Absolutely. Every team in the league could use a mobile big man who plays hard and does the dirty work.
                            But are they going to be willing to part with an impact player that could step into our starting lineup at the small forward or center position? I doubt it. Amir would only be an upgrade at PF for a couple of teams so I don't see why you are expecting to net a huge return for him. In all likelihood, the offers for Johnson would be unproven players that may never reach AJ's level (not what the Raps need), or some other damaged goods (no thanks). There's so much more value in keeping him at this point.

                            And you lost me on the Bonner comparison? I'm not disputing that Johnson would fit in well with most teams in the league.. my point is that we wouldn't get anything that would help us improve in return. Do you remember what we got in return for Bonner, Eric Williams and a 2nd round pick? Rasho Nesterovic! A journeyman center. Is that the kind of deal you're looking for? Plus Bonner and Johnson are two completely different players, I'm not sure why you'd make the connection.

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                            • #29
                              Fully wrote: View Post
                              I disagree that we're underestimating Amir's trade value right now. Would a lot of teams want him? Absolutely. Every team in the league could use a mobile big man who plays hard and does the dirty work.
                              But are they going to be willing to part with an impact player that could step into our starting lineup at the small forward or center position? I doubt it. Amir would only be an upgrade at PF for a couple of teams so I don't see why you are expecting to net a huge return for him. In all likelihood, the offers for Johnson would be unproven players that may never reach AJ's level (not what the Raps need), or some other damaged goods (no thanks). There's so much more value in keeping him at this point.

                              And you lost me on the Bonner comparison? I'm not disputing that Johnson would fit in well with most teams in the league.. my point is that we wouldn't get anything that would help us improve in return. Do you remember what we got in return for Bonner, Eric Williams and a 2nd round pick? Rasho Nesterovic! A journeyman center. Is that the kind of deal you're looking for? Plus Bonner and Johnson are two completely different players, I'm not sure why you'd make the connection.
                              I agree, and i think i shouldve been clearer. I shoulve said that if we trade Amir, we're essentially trading for a bit of upside but more on potential. Like i said, we've seen what Amir can do and IMO, he's reached his ceiling. I could be wrong, but that would be my opinion. What we can get for Amir is a type of player that is showing flashes of what he can eventually become, but on a team which really he isnt a fit with. An example i can think of is Jeff Green. We saw how good he was in OKC and from that we can probably gauge how good he'll eventually become. And IMO, with the Raps, he can be a starter and a part of the core for years to come. Now that he's with the Celtics, his value from a 16/6 guy, dwindled down to 9/3. Has he regressed? definitely not, but with a stacked team like Boston, i dont think theyre playing him to his potential. They might be keeping him as a core for the future, or maybe not. I think Boston would love to have Amir as a player. He embodies what the Celtics preach and is very young as well. In this case, it will work for both teams.

                              With the Bonner comparison, im just stating that Bonner was so-so with the Raps and he was able to find a spot in the rotation with the team like the Spurs, so what more Amir who is already solid with the Raps. If you sell Amir to one of the elite teams, im sure they wouldnt hesitate taking a look at him and possibly give up a young and up and coming asset.

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                              • #30
                                if davis grows an inch or 2 and puts on some mass he could play center easy. look at players like okafor, he's not tall as most centers but he has the strength and skills to handle them. Davis and amir is a dynamic duo in the post. Then outside you got demar + irving(hopefully) and then u got JJ and Kleiza off the bench.

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