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Thread: Why does Ed Davis make Amir Johnson redundant?

  1. #21
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    I strongly feel that Amir Johnson is not narcissistic and he genuinely likes his teammates and playing in Toronto. I could be misreading it all though. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors.

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    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    From dictionary.com:

    World English Dictionary
    redundant (rɪˈdʌndənt)

    — adj
    1. surplus to requirements; unnecessary or superfluous
    2. verbose or tautological
    3. deprived of one's job because it is no longer necessary for efficient operation: he has been made redundant
    4. (of components, information, etc) duplicated or added as a precaution against failure, error, etc


    Only 1 PF is required in the starting lineup and having two players at the same position with similar style of game is duplication. This thread was about the redundancy of Davis & Amir, not about whether or not they can/should be on the same team. I would be thrilled to have them both on the Raptors roster next season, but there is absolutely redundancy between them.

    Even if there is redundancy, it doesn't mean that one of them must be traded.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 11:16 AM.

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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    As good as Davis looked this year at times, I don't think he's ready to start just yet nor is he equipped to log 35 minutes a night. By moving Johnson, not only do you remove one of the Raptor's most efficient players from last season and a guy who has emerged as one of the leaders behind the positive vibes in Toronto, but you're putting unnecessary pressure on Davis as well.

    I think everyone needs to be a little more patient with the "rebuild". It's not going to all come together in one offseason. The team won't be any worse off with Amir in the lineup next season then it would be with whatever player they trade him for so why risk botching the chemistry, turning off the other young guys on the team and wearing out ED in the process? Just so you can say you filled a hole at a certain position? What kind of player do you expect to get back for Amir anyway?
    I agree. i think davis needs one or two at the most seasons to tinker with his game and then we'll see if he's starter material.

    But here's the dilemma, if there's a really good offer on the table, how do you pass up on that? i honestly think Amir's value in the market is way higher than what we're thinking. i mean if bonner found his niche with a team like the spurs, what more Amir?? i agree with calgaryraps - the best trades are the ones when you give up a player from a position of strength where you have depth and acquire a player to fill a hole at a position of weakness. so hopefully when we give up amir, the other team is giving up somebody as valuable as amir, but in a position that we can use.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    I strongly feel that Amir Johnson is not narcissistic and he genuinely likes his teammates and playing in Toronto. I could be misreading it all though. Who knows what goes on behind closed doors.
    well, if a guy as nice as Jose demanded a starting job.....

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    Raptors Republic Rookie WBG416's Avatar
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    I think the only reason Amir is 'redundant' is because of his contract. We basically get the same production out of Ed on his rookie contract. I would love to keep amir, and if we trade Bargs we should deffinately keep those two as our PFs.

    If Bargs stay, we should trade amir, although I question that fact that Bargnani is actually a legit Pf, its hard to play him at center after he said he wasn't a center and his teammates basically said that same thing.

    He isn't necasarilly redundant, but if we do find a center without trading Bargs, he becomes excessive.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    well, if a guy as nice as Jose demanded a starting job.....
    He didn't. He waited until free agency and let it be known that starting was an important condition in him signing anywhere. I think that was more a political move. I feel there was tension between him and TJ near the end and it was Jose's way of saying "me or him".

    Quote WBG416 wrote: View Post
    I think the only reason Amir is 'redundant' is because of his contract. We basically get the same production out of Ed on his rookie contract. I would love to keep amir, and if we trade Bargs we should deffinately keep those two as our PFs.
    Rookie scale doesn't quantify real market worth.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    He didn't. He waited until free agency and let it be known that starting was an important condition in him signing anywhere. I think that was more a political move. I feel there was tension between him and TJ near the end and it was Jose's way of saying "me or him".
    oh yeah, i think that is right. well hopefully no tension arises between Amir and Ed, but i dont think it would take tension for him to demand a starting job. it can only take one person in his camp to whisper in his ear and tell him this is what you deserve and therefore should demand.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I agree. i think davis needs one or two at the most seasons to tinker with his game and then we'll see if he's starter material.

    But here's the dilemma, if there's a really good offer on the table, how do you pass up on that? i honestly think Amir's value in the market is way higher than what we're thinking. i mean if bonner found his niche with a team like the spurs, what more Amir?? i agree with calgaryraps - the best trades are the ones when you give up a player from a position of strength where you have depth and acquire a player to fill a hole at a position of weakness. so hopefully when we give up amir, the other team is giving up somebody as valuable as amir, but in a position that we can use.
    I disagree that we're underestimating Amir's trade value right now. Would a lot of teams want him? Absolutely. Every team in the league could use a mobile big man who plays hard and does the dirty work.
    But are they going to be willing to part with an impact player that could step into our starting lineup at the small forward or center position? I doubt it. Amir would only be an upgrade at PF for a couple of teams so I don't see why you are expecting to net a huge return for him. In all likelihood, the offers for Johnson would be unproven players that may never reach AJ's level (not what the Raps need), or some other damaged goods (no thanks). There's so much more value in keeping him at this point.

    And you lost me on the Bonner comparison? I'm not disputing that Johnson would fit in well with most teams in the league.. my point is that we wouldn't get anything that would help us improve in return. Do you remember what we got in return for Bonner, Eric Williams and a 2nd round pick? Rasho Nesterovic! A journeyman center. Is that the kind of deal you're looking for? Plus Bonner and Johnson are two completely different players, I'm not sure why you'd make the connection.

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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    I disagree that we're underestimating Amir's trade value right now. Would a lot of teams want him? Absolutely. Every team in the league could use a mobile big man who plays hard and does the dirty work.
    But are they going to be willing to part with an impact player that could step into our starting lineup at the small forward or center position? I doubt it. Amir would only be an upgrade at PF for a couple of teams so I don't see why you are expecting to net a huge return for him. In all likelihood, the offers for Johnson would be unproven players that may never reach AJ's level (not what the Raps need), or some other damaged goods (no thanks). There's so much more value in keeping him at this point.

    And you lost me on the Bonner comparison? I'm not disputing that Johnson would fit in well with most teams in the league.. my point is that we wouldn't get anything that would help us improve in return. Do you remember what we got in return for Bonner, Eric Williams and a 2nd round pick? Rasho Nesterovic! A journeyman center. Is that the kind of deal you're looking for? Plus Bonner and Johnson are two completely different players, I'm not sure why you'd make the connection.
    I agree, and i think i shouldve been clearer. I shoulve said that if we trade Amir, we're essentially trading for a bit of upside but more on potential. Like i said, we've seen what Amir can do and IMO, he's reached his ceiling. I could be wrong, but that would be my opinion. What we can get for Amir is a type of player that is showing flashes of what he can eventually become, but on a team which really he isnt a fit with. An example i can think of is Jeff Green. We saw how good he was in OKC and from that we can probably gauge how good he'll eventually become. And IMO, with the Raps, he can be a starter and a part of the core for years to come. Now that he's with the Celtics, his value from a 16/6 guy, dwindled down to 9/3. Has he regressed? definitely not, but with a stacked team like Boston, i dont think theyre playing him to his potential. They might be keeping him as a core for the future, or maybe not. I think Boston would love to have Amir as a player. He embodies what the Celtics preach and is very young as well. In this case, it will work for both teams.

    With the Bonner comparison, im just stating that Bonner was so-so with the Raps and he was able to find a spot in the rotation with the team like the Spurs, so what more Amir who is already solid with the Raps. If you sell Amir to one of the elite teams, im sure they wouldnt hesitate taking a look at him and possibly give up a young and up and coming asset.

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    if davis grows an inch or 2 and puts on some mass he could play center easy. look at players like okafor, he's not tall as most centers but he has the strength and skills to handle them. Davis and amir is a dynamic duo in the post. Then outside you got demar + irving(hopefully) and then u got JJ and Kleiza off the bench.

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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    if davis grows an inch or 2 and puts on some mass he could play center easy. look at players like okafor, he's not tall as most centers but he has the strength and skills to handle them. Davis and amir is a dynamic duo in the post. Then outside you got demar + irving(hopefully) and then u got JJ and Kleiza off the bench.
    At least for the time being, Davis is way less of a legit C than Bargnani is. He had trouble handling the bigger PF such as Boozer, there's no way he can be asked to guard guys like Howard & Bogut. He may bulk up enough in the future, but I expect he'll only ever have a Bosh-like body - fine for PF, but not for C.

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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I agree, and i think i shouldve been clearer. I shoulve said that if we trade Amir, we're essentially trading for a bit of upside but more on potential. Like i said, we've seen what Amir can do and IMO, he's reached his ceiling. I could be wrong, but that would be my opinion. What we can get for Amir is a type of player that is showing flashes of what he can eventually become, but on a team which really he isnt a fit with. An example i can think of is Jeff Green. We saw how good he was in OKC and from that we can probably gauge how good he'll eventually become. And IMO, with the Raps, he can be a starter and a part of the core for years to come. Now that he's with the Celtics, his value from a 16/6 guy, dwindled down to 9/3. Has he regressed? definitely not, but with a stacked team like Boston, i dont think theyre playing him to his potential. They might be keeping him as a core for the future, or maybe not. I think Boston would love to have Amir as a player. He embodies what the Celtics preach and is very young as well. In this case, it will work for both teams.

    With the Bonner comparison, im just stating that Bonner was so-so with the Raps and he was able to find a spot in the rotation with the team like the Spurs, so what more Amir who is already solid with the Raps. If you sell Amir to one of the elite teams, im sure they wouldnt hesitate taking a look at him and possibly give up a young and up and coming asset.
    First of all, Jeff Green is a free agent this summer and will end up getting $10-12 million dollars in his new contract, which makes trading for him much more difficult from a logistics standpoint, on top of the fact that I don't think Boston would consider this in a million years.

    Danny Ainge just gave up a HUGE part of his team to acquire Green, and got roasted by his fans and the media in the process. You really think he'd flip Green this summer for Amir Johnson to play 10-15 minutes a night behind Garnett? They'd be rioting in the streets in Beantown.

    Obviously the Raptors should jump at this deal if it was offered but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's not going to happen. We're much more likely to get a stop gap player or somebody who will never pan out then we are to get a starter who we can build around for the next decade.
    Last edited by Fully; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 12:30 PM.

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    It's impossible to say with certainty that Amir has reached his ceiling. Amir has shown that he's capable of recognizing what parts of his game need to be improved and then he has actually worked at and strengthened his game. Wouldn't it be nice if all the young guys could show the same level of improvement next year as Amir did last year. This year I'm sure he'll be working at stretching his game out and I wouldn't be surprised to see more improvement. I definitely wouldn't count him out from being their best player at the four.

  14. #34
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    oh yeah, i think that is right. well hopefully no tension arises between Amir and Ed, but i dont think it would take tension for him to demand a starting job. it can only take one person in his camp to whisper in his ear and tell him this is what you deserve and therefore should demand.
    I would hope that none of the guys on the team are that easily manipulated by those around them. That's the sort of stuff that leads to those sad stories of guys like Latrell Sprewell and Antoine Walker going bankrupt.

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    It is simple. It is about having limited resources in terms of Money to Spend and Players to use as trade assets WHILE Having dire needs in your PG position, SF position and Center Position. You can not address all three from the Draft either because you can not allocate enough resources to develop 5-6 rookies at the same time. So let me Break it down :

    1) Huge need to Upgrade and bring talent in PG,SF and Center.
    2) Limited resources and bargaining chips.
    3) Having two players in the same position who have similar games ( not identical But similar), have the same body type and ... and you can not play them as your starting PF and Center and both supposedly are talented and can gain some interest in the trade market.

    If you have taken Econ 101 classes, then you know your only choise here is to move one of these guys and address your other needs. Lets face it, Amir is talking about becoming a leader of this team. Do you think he will be happy coming off the bench playing 15 minutes a game

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    At least for the time being, Davis is way less of a legit C than Bargnani is. He had trouble handling the bigger PF such as Boozer, there's no way he can be asked to guard guys like Howard & Bogut. He may bulk up enough in the future, but I expect he'll only ever have a Bosh-like body - fine for PF, but not for C.
    No one is asking him to be a full time center. Just 10-15 minutes a game.
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    Since I started this thing, I thought I would chime in here with a few thoughts. The way I see it is that building a team requires the acquisition of assets. You want to buy low and sell high. And Colangelo has done a pretty decent job of that, in some respects, especially when it comes to Amir. The problem I see with that is that you should not only be acquiring assets, but looking out for players that you feel should be "keepers". These are guys whose trade value is virtually irrelevant because their value to the team is probably worth more than they would fetch in a trade. Considering how few of the current roster I would consider "keepers" I would be extremely reticent to trading one of them.

    Since everyone loves lists, I thought I'd make a list of the current Raptors in order of value to the team vs trade value. Keep in mind I've only included the players who will still be under contract beyond the end of this season, so no Reggie, Sonny, Joey or any free agent.

    CORE- These are guys I would rather not trade and see them as guys I want to build with.
    Ed Davis- A rookie with an extremely high basketball IQ and a lot of potential? You'd have to get a young, perennial All-Star back in return for him.
    Amir Johnson- A hard working glue guy who defends, rebounds and scores efficiently is a lot rarer than most people think. Especially one that is 23 and learned his trade on a contender like the Pistons. Only way I'd trade him is if it makes the team better long term.
    DeMar DeRozan- If he played above average defense he'd be virtually untouchable, and if he doesn't continue his improvement on that end, he'll drop like a stone. But DeRozan is the most expendable of the three "core" guys the Raptors have right now. It would still take a hell of a lot of pry him away, though.

    POSSIBLE PIECES- I'd have no problem including these guys in a trade, but it I think they are probably more valuable to the team than anything you could get for them on the open market.
    James Johnson- It's not that he's an especially good player, but his potential is of greater value to the team than anything you'd get for him. Considering he's only really played half a season in the NBA, he's still mostly an unknown quantity, but one he's shown enough in that time that he's worth holding onto.
    Jose Calderon- Jose's trade value is probably less than what he brings to the team, so I'd rather keep him than take on someone else that wouldn't help the team as much. He's a better PG than many give him credit for and is a good teammate. I don't see him as the long term solution to the PG situation, but he's easily good enough to fill in until that solution comes along.
    Jerryd Bayless- I'm not as high on him as some, but he's certainly got potential. I remember Bob Cousy once saying that you can tell if a player is a true PG if he ends up passing the ball on a fast break. Count how many times Bayless takes it in himself. Still, he's got heart and talent. You could do far worse than him as your backup PG.

    TRADE BAIT- These are guys who would fetch more in a trade than what they'd bring to the team long term.
    Leandro Barbosa- He's a 28 year old instant offense bench player with a history of injuries. By the time this team really needs a player like that, he'll probably be on the downside of his career. If he doesn't opt out, the Raptors should get what they can for him. He'd help a contender far more than he would the Raptors.
    Andrea Bargnani- If you can get a good deal for a player who actually has a negative impact overall on the team, you do it and don't look back. Yes, Bargnani is talented offensively, but he's way more trouble than he's worth.

    WORTHLESS
    Solomon Alibi- Does the league even remember this guy exists? He might end up being a player, but if this year is any indication, that time is not next season, that's for sure.

    NEGATIVE TRADE VALUE
    Linus Kleiza- Getting paid what he is with a possibly career threatening knee injury? The Raptors would have to give up something good in order for a team to take them off their hands. I hope he regains his form because he would be a nice bench player if he does.
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    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Fully wrote: View Post
    First of all, Jeff Green is a free agent this summer and will end up getting $10-12 million dollars in his new contract, which makes trading for him much more difficult from a logistics standpoint, on top of the fact that I don't think Boston would consider this in a million years.

    Danny Ainge just gave up a HUGE part of his team to acquire Green, and got roasted by his fans and the media in the process. You really think he'd flip Green this summer for Amir Johnson to play 10-15 minutes a night behind Garnett? They'd be rioting in the streets in Beantown.

    Obviously the Raptors should jump at this deal if it was offered but I guess the point I'm trying to make is that it's not going to happen. We're much more likely to get a stop gap player or somebody who will never pan out then we are to get a starter who we can build around for the next decade.
    Good points. I was merely using Green as an example and wasnt married to the idea of targeting Green but for the sake of argument then we can go with Green.

    Green actually is still on a qualifying offer, now im not exactly sure what that means but if that means he cant opt out then he's still with the Celtics for $5mil and can still be traded by the Celtics. If he can opt out, and like you said will be garnering 10-12mil, then the Celtics wont be able to afford him anyways. The Celtics has a $72 mil payroll next year, $67 without Green's contract. They could well take Amir, and let Big baby walk coz IMO, Amir is a much more skilled and versatile player than Glen Davis. Amir can play the 4 and 5, and can play effectively with KG. So with that said, they can let go of Green, i dont think they see him as a part of the future core, specially with Pierce and Garnett both on contract for big money and Green will primarily play backup for these two for 10-12mil. IMO, they took green coz that was the best possible deal at that time that they could take for Perkin, doesnt translate to keeping green for the future.

    I dont think Ainge gave up a lot for Green. Perkins declined an extension and as history goes, when a player declines an extension, the only way you can re-sign him is if you overpay. I guess Ainge didnt see the value in paying a 27yrold 6-10 center who just played 12 games due to a leg injury 8-10million. He knows Garnett aint going anywhere, for sure he'll re-sign with the celtics and he's got Jermaine at 6mil and shaq at 1mil. He's probably thinking if we dont win now or next year, we're probably going on semi-rebuild mode anyways (allen, garnett expiring contracts) so why put so much money on a semi-aging undersized center. Perkins is a beast on defense dont get me wrong, but ainge may have been thinking he can go with what o'neal and garnett can offer.

    IMO, the Celtics can definitely consider Amir. Maybe the Spurs would too. With Duncan and McDyess getting close to retirement Amir would be good for them at the 4-5 spot. Pop will definitely like his hardwork/hustle mentality and can be a good combination with Blair. Maybe theyd let go of Hill since Parker signed a 4 year extension. I think Hill can be a very good addition to the raptors core.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 02:17 PM.

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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    No one is asking him to be a full time center. Just 10-15 minutes a game.
    Davis play as center for 10-15 minutes !! Here we go again with the nonsense of pushing players into positions that they are build for, they do not have experience and are not suited for !!!!

    We did with AB, moving him between 3, 4 and 5. We tend to do this with our rookies. Why is that ?
    Why not just give them a role and ask them to excel in it ?

    Why do we want to play a 220 lb kid as a center and let him get beaten up just because we want Amir to be on the court ?

    This is pure non-sense. Get a REAL Center. Build the team the right way. Get a REAL PG and not a shooting guard that is undersized and hence moved to PG position.

    I know Tim knows better than this but his hate for Bargnani and his personal agenda against AB is forcing him to make this faulty argument on HOW to Play Davis and Johnson on the floor together.

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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    It's impossible to say with certainty that Amir has reached his ceiling. Amir has shown that he's capable of recognizing what parts of his game need to be improved and then he has actually worked at and strengthened his game. Wouldn't it be nice if all the young guys could show the same level of improvement next year as Amir did last year. This year I'm sure he'll be working at stretching his game out and I wouldn't be surprised to see more improvement. I definitely wouldn't count him out from being their best player at the four.
    I guess im just going with what everybody is saying about Bargnani, that he's already been in the NBA for 5 years and still hasnt improved on defense, so with Amir, since he's been in the league for 6 years, im just guessing this maybe as far as he goes. But you are right in pointing out Amir's determination to improve, which Bargnani sorely lacks. Everybody still has room to improve if they put their minds to it, i guess. But i really cant see Amir being more than a 10-8 guy. I maybe wrong, but thats my opinion. He had a career year on a team that won 22 games while sharing minutes with a rookie. Like i said, he came into the league, in the same team as Jason Maxiel and Maxiel played, while he did not. Who knows, maybe its the youth factor or the coach, but if he really was a special talent, he wouldve at least cracked the Detroit rotation during his early years.

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