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Thread: Why does Ed Davis make Amir Johnson redundant?

  1. #41
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Since I started this thing, I thought I would chime in here with a few thoughts. The way I see it is that building a team requires the acquisition of assets. You want to buy low and sell high. And Colangelo has done a pretty decent job of that, in some respects, especially when it comes to Amir. The problem I see with that is that you should not only be acquiring assets, but looking out for players that you feel should be "keepers". These are guys whose trade value is virtually irrelevant because their value to the team is probably worth more than they would fetch in a trade. Considering how few of the current roster I would consider "keepers" I would be extremely reticent to trading one of them.

    Since everyone loves lists, I thought I'd make a list of the current Raptors in order of value to the team vs trade value. Keep in mind I've only included the players who will still be under contract beyond the end of this season, so no Reggie, Sonny, Joey or any free agent.

    It would be interesting to do some poll, either one player at a time or all together if possible, so RR readers could pick the category they think each of the 10 Raptors under contract fall into (assume Barbosa uses his player option).

    It is easy to see why such differing opinions among RR posters, when you see what value each person puts on each player. For instance, here is how I would break down the categories and which players I would personally put in each. It's no wonder we don't see eye-to-eye on some topics!

    A) KEEPERS
    - good young players with high potential that should be part of the team's core for years to come; virtually untradeable
    - Davis
    - DeRozan

    B) CORE POTENTIAL
    - good players, young, manageable salary; could be part of the secondary core for years to come with further development/improvement or could be used as trade bait if the right deal comes along
    - Bargnani
    - A. Johnson
    - J. Johnson
    - Bayless*

    C) SHORT TERM
    - decent players that you'd be happy to have on the team, but aren't likely to be part of the long-term future of this team; play them or trade them, but they're likely undervalued on the trade market due to skill/age/salary/injuries
    - Calderon
    - Kleiza

    D) TRADE BAIT
    - their best value to this team is in a trade to bring in draft picks and/or more A/B type players
    - Barbosa
    - Alabi

    * Bayless moves to "D" if Irving is drafted
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 03:47 PM.

  2. #42
    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    Tim, the only possible issue I could ever see arising is that neither Ed nor Amir give you that stretch 4 guy to extend the defense and spread the floor. Amir's shot is much better and Ed should be able to develop a solid 15 footer but neither guy is going to have Garnett, Stoudemire, Bosh et al. type range. Now, as long as the Raps have enough shooting on the perimeter this isn't an issue but it does give you less flexibility up front. You could remedy this by having a 4th big to play spot minutes here and there to mix things up, which is likely a good idea.

    Defensively, I don't see any issue. Davis and Amir can both defend the pick and roll and bang down low.

    I am just fine with both guys coming back.

  3. #43
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    I guess im just going with what everybody is saying about Bargnani, that he's already been in the NBA for 5 years and still hasnt improved on defense, so with Amir, since he's been in the league for 6 years, im just guessing this maybe as far as he goes. But you are right in pointing out Amir's determination to improve, which Bargnani sorely lacks. Everybody still has room to improve if they put their minds to it, i guess. But i really cant see Amir being more than a 10-8 guy. I maybe wrong, but thats my opinion. He had a career year on a team that won 22 games while sharing minutes with a rookie. Like i said, he came into the league, in the same team as Jason Maxiel and Maxiel played, while he did not. Who knows, maybe its the youth factor or the coach, but if he really was a special talent, he wouldve at least cracked the Detroit rotation during his early years.
    You have a number of opinions that I have to disagree with comparing Bargs and Amir.
    With the same amount of shots taken, Amir outscores Bargs. If given the same playing time, Amir almost doubles Bargs in rebounds. On defense who are you going to get the most stops with? Amir can switch and cover a three which is something Bargs isn't able to do [he has a hard time covering anyone with the exception of a center that doesn't finish well ].
    As far as what happened with Amir in Detroit it has no bearing on his true potential. They never saw him as a part of the rotation but he has proven them wrong. Maybe you would prefer Charlie V?
    When comparing their playing time in the league look at the minutes played. Bargs has always been given 30 plus minutes regardless of his play.

  4. #44
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Davis play as center for 10-15 minutes !! Here we go again with the nonsense of pushing players into positions that they are build for, they do not have experience and are not suited for !!!!
    Sometimes the matchups favour guys like Davis, Johnson and Bargnani at Centre. Bargnani for example has done quite well against Shaq and various other large immobile power based bigs, but he'll get his ass handed to him by Perkins or Garnett once Boston makes the adjustment and he's faced with that matchup.

    Similarly, Amir and Ed possess the quickness and bounce to catch certain centres off guard, even when they're at a strength disadvantage (which will become less of a problem as they get older). It's nice to have this kind of versatility to recognize and exploit different matchups, even if only for 10 minutes per game.
    Last edited by Brasky; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 04:42 PM.

  5. #45
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Davis' old man says that Ed plans to put on like 20lbs of muscle this summer. Davis plays like a typical center, he just lacks mass.

    What are the guidelines for determining if a guy is a center anyway? Just wondering because people seem to love to argue the point of if a guy is/isn't a center.

  6. #46
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote j bean wrote: View Post
    You have a number of opinions that I have to disagree with comparing Bargs and Amir.
    With the same amount of shots taken, Amir outscores Bargs. If given the same playing time, Amir almost doubles Bargs in rebounds. On defense who are you going to get the most stops with? Amir can switch and cover a three which is something Bargs isn't able to do [he has a hard time covering anyone with the exception of a center that doesn't finish well ].
    As far as what happened with Amir in Detroit it has no bearing on his true potential. They never saw him as a part of the rotation but he has proven them wrong. Maybe you would prefer Charlie V?
    When comparing their playing time in the league look at the minutes played. Bargs has always been given 30 plus minutes regardless of his play.
    Oh, hold on a second, i wasnt comparing stats between Amir and Bargs. Dont get me wrong, i prefer Amir over Bargs 2000%. What im pointing at was, IMO, Amir already hit his ceiling last season. I dont think he can be more than a 10/8 guy, and i came up with this conclusion because he's already been in the league for 6 years. The same with what people are saying with Bargnani, that we cannot give him another year to improve because he's already been in the league for 5 years and still has no clue how to play defense. Im not saying Bargs is better than Amir, maybe just in scoring, but overall, im all for playing Amir over Bargs.

    You dont have to consider his career in Detroit, but its something you cant turn a blind a eye to either. He wasnt part of the rotation, doesnt it make you think why not? Why would they sit a young, athletic big rather than play over an aging big man in C-Webb? or Rasheed or Ben Wallace? I mean they couldve given him at least 10-15mins a game, but if you look at the game logs in his 1-3rd year, he played 10-15mins on games that were decided by 20 or more points.

    Amir's game is the product of hardwork, discipline and determination with limited talent. But unfortunately it takes talented players to get teams over the hump. Amir is an excellent sub, no doubt about it.
    Last edited by TheGloveinRapsUniform; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 04:55 PM.

  7. #47
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Tim, the only possible issue I could ever see arising is that neither Ed nor Amir give you that stretch 4 guy to extend the defense and spread the floor. Amir's shot is much better and Ed should be able to develop a solid 15 footer but neither guy is going to have Garnett, Stoudemire, Bosh et al. type range. Now, as long as the Raps have enough shooting on the perimeter this isn't an issue but it does give you less flexibility up front. You could remedy this by having a 4th big to play spot minutes here and there to mix things up, which is likely a good idea.

    Defensively, I don't see any issue. Davis and Amir can both defend the pick and roll and bang down low.

    I am just fine with both guys coming back.
    I think the notion of having a stretch big is nice, but really not necessary. Especially if you've got other players who can hit from outside. AT the moment the Raptors really don't, but in a year or two I'm guessing that will change. Besides, Amir hits the 15 footer well enough to keep defenses honest, and that's really the main thing.
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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    Davis' old man says that Ed plans to put on like 20lbs of muscle this summer. Davis plays like a typical center, he just lacks mass.

    What are the guidelines for determining if a guy is a center anyway? Just wondering because people seem to love to argue the point of if a guy is/isn't a center.
    he can easily play center, once is father whoops his ass into shape he could play center no problem.

  9. #49
    Raptors Republic Rookie footarez's Avatar
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    Core:Amir,derozan and Ed
    Should keep them on team:Bayless,JJ,Barbosa
    Trade baits:everybody else

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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    Core:Amir,derozan and Ed
    Should keep them on team:Bayless,JJ,Barbosa
    Trade baits:everybody else
    add kleiza to the keep list. We need a tough guy who can take it to the rack and hit them trey's

  11. #51
    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    he can easily play center, once is father whoops his ass into shape he could play center no problem.
    Haha that's the spirit. He has had a great luxury all his life being the son of a pro. Kobe had that same luxury.

  12. #52
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    Quote footarez wrote: View Post
    Core:Amir,derozan and Ed
    Should keep them on team:Bayless,JJ,Barbosa
    Trade baits:everybody else
    Is your Core build to win 15 games next season and get a top 3 draft pick ?? Because if this the case, then your starting line up of:

    Bayless DD
    Amir Ed JJ

    will guarantee that you reach your goal.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Is your Core build to win 15 games next season and get a top 3 draft pick ?? Because if this the case, then your starting line up of:

    Bayless DD
    Amir Ed JJ

    will guarantee that you reach your goal.
    for all you know they could end up coming back next season amazing players. You can't throw out random insults on our players without proof.

  14. #54
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    Quote Raptors_ wrote: View Post
    for all you know they could end up coming back next season amazing players. You can't throw out random insults on our players without proof.
    It's an easy thing to say. The team won 22 games this year, and only won that many because of a streak of playing well in November. With or without Bargnani, the team, as it's currently constructed, is not going to win very many games. So if Bargnani is traded and the team only wins 25 games, then Bargnani supporters can say they only won 25 games because they traded Bargnani away.
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    I think it's because everyone is assuming we will sign a center which will move Andrea to the PF position. If this is the case Amir is the odd man out. Amir or Andrea have to go and that is BC's choice.

  16. #56
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    I think it's because everyone is assuming we will sign a center which will move Andrea to the PF position. If this is the case Amir is the odd man out. Amir or Andrea have to go and that is BC's choice.
    It is a small sample size but 16 out of 30 think Bargnani is traded and 9 are unsure (myself included).

    http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...e-or-next-year

  17. #57
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    Quote Macc wrote: View Post
    I think it's because everyone is assuming we will sign a center which will move Andrea to the PF position. If this is the case Amir is the odd man out. Amir or Andrea have to go and that is BC's choice.
    I think there's been too much water under the bridge to keep Bargnani. The media now feel he should be traded and I think the majority of fans seem to, as well. Even Colangelo has to see the writing on the wall.
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    It is a small sample size but 16 out of 30 think Bargnani is traded and 9 are unsure (myself included).

    http://raptorsrepublic.com/forums/sh...e-or-next-year
    I just voted, so make that 17 out of 31. Or another way of putting it is that only 5 out of 31 think he won't be traded.
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    bargnani gone. Next season starting line up predictions:

    Bayless/?
    Demar/Barbosa/maybe Weems
    JJ/Kleiza
    ED/Amir
    Defensive center/Alabi(with the proper training and coaching can be our back up)

  20. #60
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Is your Core build to win 15 games next season and get a top 3 draft pick ?? Because if this the case, then your starting line up of:

    Bayless DD
    Amir Ed JJ

    will guarantee that you reach your goal.
    Yes,that is my core.So much better than the core we had last year with bargnani,evans,kleiza,demar and calderon who won how much???Ah,yeah -22.Real nice.

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