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Thread: Stein: If not Colangelo, Raps to draft in Embry?

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    Super Moderator MangoKid's Avatar
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    Default Stein: If not Colangelo, Raps to draft in Embry?

    Pretty interesting. I hope it doesn't come to this though.

    Sources close to the situation told ESPN.com this week that the Raptors do have a backup plan if the current management -- at the urging of staunch anti-Colangelo board member Glen Silvestri -- decides it's best to make an immediate change. Or a change after June 30.

    One possibility management is considering, sources said, is naming Raptors special advisor Wayne Embry as interim GM. In that scenario, Embry and longtime Raptors scouting director Jim Kelly would then either be asked to oversee Toronto's draft in Colangelo's place, or Embry would simply become interim GM as of July 1.
    LINK

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    I hate this crap. I for one want to see BC try to rebuild, but if you're going to let him go just do it and move on.
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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    sounds like writers just writing up stories. if MLSE is looking to sell, which they are, this silvestri is truly irrelevant to the whole situation. i honestly think that all this speculation is just that until we receive new ownership. now, if they could just hurry up.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    New ownership does not happen overnight - especially with the structure of MLSE with 3 teams of different sports leagues and an asking price of over $1,000,000,000 dollars (that is BILLION).

    The situation is ridiculous and any progress that has been made this year is in jeopardy, in my opinion. I am no longer willing to debate Colangelo's history here because the only arguments are based on hindsight - at the time, each of his major 'failures' met a specific need, they just didn't work out. Clearly there is a plan already under way and to start from scratch with a new GM with a new plan realistically sets the franchise back a season or two. This is not like the POR situation or the NOH situation - both of those teams had proven (and good) NBA players to work with i.e. much more depth/talent/experience.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Wayne stepped in and sealed the deal(Rose for Davis) that made the Raptors marketable to Colangelo in the first place. He has vast experience but I could have sworn even when Babcock was axed he clearly stated in an interview that being a GM was not something he wanted to do full time in the future. Five years later I would not think his tune changed... So they go with Wayne, ownership changes hands and then what? What time of year are we looking at then? What sorts of candidates are out there to take over? What about the lack of time to get used to their new team and their players' capabilities?

    FYI people, Jim Kelly is a lot to thank for the drafting of Hoffa back in '04. Babcock was on the job a couple weeks prior to the draft and listened heavily to his advisers opinion's. I am pretty sure Jim was a strong supporter of Hoffa. This is what you have to possibly look forward to with a potential top three pick.

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    I thought I saw Embry at a lot more away games towards the end of the year.

    He's done the transition once, why not again if needed?

    I guess that Colangelo extension wasn't so much a sure thing was it?

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    There's one guy holding up the process Sleepz. It should be a sure thing. Instead we might end up with a guy who probably doesn't want the job and then a guy who isn't qualified and/or lacks experience to do a good job.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    FYI people, Jim Kelly is a lot to thank for the drafting of Hoffa back in '04. Babcock was on the job a couple weeks prior to the draft and listened heavily to his advisers opinion's. I am pretty sure Jim was a strong supporter of Hoffa. This is what you have to possibly look forward to with a potential top three pick.
    Well, most people seem to like Derozan and Davis and the scouting department had something to do with that.

    Since I'm of two minds on Colangelo I am not overly concerned. If BC is there he will make the best pick he can. If he isn't there then I highly doubt that no work has been done. I suspect that they already have a pretty good idea of how their draft board looks and Embry would be in the loop to some degree.

    Honestly, if they draft outside the top two (the no-brainers) I don't think that Enes Kanter or Kemba Walker are leading the Raps to glory. This draft isn't as material as everyone is making it out to be.

    I am not sure what "progress" has been made this year that is at risk. If anything, it was a massive regression. Necessary in the long run, of course, but a major step back nonetheless. Hopefully, 2011-12 and 12-13 will see progress but I don't think those seasons are at risk of being much worse if Wayne Embry takes over for 6 months.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    I thought I saw Embry at a lot more away games towards the end of the year.

    He's done the transition once, why not again if needed?

    I guess that Colangelo extension wasn't so much a sure thing was it?
    The president and CEO of MLSE and the Chairman of MLSE are both publically behind Colangelo. A bean counter at a pension fund is the issue.

    The only hope is Tanenbaum exercises his right of first purchase of MLSE. Maybe that is the reason behind the lack of news and rumours about it - maybe he is lining up partners or investors. (S-P-E-C-U-L-A-T-I-O-N)

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Well, most people seem to like Derozan and Davis and the scouting department had something to do with that.
    I haven't read anything on Jim Kelly being the driving force in either draft pick.

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Since I'm of two minds on Colangelo I am not overly concerned. If BC is there he will make the best pick he can. If he isn't there then I highly doubt that no work has been done. I suspect that they already have a pretty good idea of how their draft board looks and Embry would be in the loop to some degree.
    No one said no work is being done. What I'm telling you is that you don't want the wrong guy making the call. Work had been done in '04 but the wrong guy made a bad call probably based on bad scouting. Raptors' fans distaste in Jim is not a new concept. Google it. I'm sure you'll find lots of history.

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Honestly, if they draft outside the top two (the no-brainers) I don't think that Enes Kanter or Kemba Walker are leading the Raps to glory. This draft isn't as material as everyone is making it out to be.
    Right, so your mentality is that if the pick isn't one of the "sure shots" then who cares? We should care a whole lot more then. Anybody can pick Irving or Williams. If they're picking #3 and beyond they need somebody really competent pulling the trigger. They can't afford to piss away a golden opportunity on landing a nice young player.

    And please do point out where anybody is suggesting this draft is good. One post out of thousands in here would do. You won't find it. We all know the draft is labeled weak. Weak drafts produce good players too. They called '06 weak and some really nice players came out.

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I am not sure what "progress" has been made this year that is at risk. If anything, it was a massive regression. Necessary in the long run, of course, but a major step back nonetheless. Hopefully, 2011-12 and 12-13 will see progress but I don't think those seasons are at risk of being much worse if Wayne Embry takes over for 6 months.
    They're not at risk of losing anything they've built, they're at risk of losing time and opportunities in the future. Interim GMs do the bare minimum. They're not going to make the signings and trades needed to progress the club. Embry was brought in last time with orders from the board to make the Jalen Rose deal happen and nothing more. He got it done and then stepped aside. Who knows, maybe they can get Silvestri in there to give Wayne some pointers. He seems good at that.

    Then they need to hire somebody. Who's left by then? You might be singing a different tune when the off-season is wasted and they end up with a guy not as good as Colangelo running things.
    Last edited by Apollo; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 04:23 PM. Reason: had more to say. :)

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    he's the head of the scouting department. how would his influence be any different from 2004 than 2009? everyone likes to use the blame game for haffa. jack, jim, rob are all to blame no more than the other. it was a bad pick. every scouting team/general manager makes the wrong decision from time to time.

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    Haha. The goof Sirchillymost is commenting on the article. S M H
    Eh follow my TWITTER!

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    Quote funkie wrote: View Post
    he's the head of the scouting department. how would his influence be any different from 2004 than 2009? everyone likes to use the blame game for haffa. jack, jim, rob are all to blame no more than the other. it was a bad pick. every scouting team/general manager makes the wrong decision from time to time.
    In '04 they hired their new GM only a week or so before the draft. That GM was Babcock and he came from Minnesota where the Wolves didn't have a lotto pick. Because they didn't have a lotto pick Babcock wasn't up to speed on the top prospects because they were out of reach and probably because his GM didn't assign him to look into those high players for the same reason. So when he entered the role was Raptors GM with no GM experience (Déjà vu is on the horizon it would seem) and no top prospect information what was he to do? Well, listen heavily to the top scout Jim Kelly is what. When Colangelo selected Davis he was well informed. He had been with the team for three years, he was President of the Raptors. That's how it's different.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star slaw's Avatar
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    So, the Raps scouting department has nothing to do with picks unless you can find a media source explicitly quoting their involvement. Got it. I guess they just hang out in their offices all day playing minesweeper. Does the report have to detail the percentage of input they had? Gimme a break. Also, I am well aware of how Raps fans feel about Jim Kelly but your golden boy Colangelo obviously thinks highly enough of him to keep him around and even complimented the scouting department on the last two drafts. Hey, you can Google that!

    Babcock made a bad call in 2005? No kidding. Did you find that on Google? Thank god we have the guy who drafted PJ Tucker over Paul Milsap. See what I did there?

    The draft is weak but they can't afford to piss away the opportunity to draft a good young player? The 2006 produced good players but was weak. And.... can you get me a Rosetta Stone to decipher this? Your point can't be that trite can it? There must be more here. If Colangelo is gone are they forfeiting their pick? Giving it away for free? Otherwise, presumably they'll have some chance to actually draft a good player in this weak draft, which everyone knows is weak but will produce really good players or something.

    A guy not as good as Colangelo? Ah yes, back to the devil you know argument. Hey, breaking up is hard to do and this is certainly a convenient excuse. What's my tune? I'd rather sacrifice one off-season now than sacrifice the next 5 under a GM who has utterly failed to deliver in Toronto. Could it turn out worse? Sure, but I already know waht 5 years of Colangelo looks like and I don't want 5 more.

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    Quote Apollo wrote: View Post
    There's one guy holding up the process Sleepz. It should be a sure thing. Instead we might end up with a guy who probably doesn't want the job and then a guy who isn't qualified and/or lacks experience to do a good job.
    I don't know. I know it's been reported that it's Silvestri but do you think that if he was the only one standing in the way that he wouldn't have been pressured by now to compromise?

    Does he have enuff juice to block this himself? Wouldn't the Teachers at least step in and ask him the reasons for his denial of BC's extension? I have a feeling there is more to this than we the public know.

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    So, the Raps scouting department has nothing to do with picks unless you can find a media source explicitly quoting their involvement. Got it.
    No, but you can read information and then apply logic and reasoning to situations to determine plausible answers. Babcock had no prep time and it was documented he trusted his scouting department greatly. Colangelo in 2009 had the entire year to prep for the draft. FYI, Colangelo has a far superior draft record pre-Raptors to anything Jim Kelly's name has been associated with in any regime.

    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    Also, I am well aware of how Raps fans feel about Jim Kelly but your golden boy Colangelo obviously thinks highly enough of him to keep him around and even complimented the scouting department on the last two drafts. Hey, you can Google that!
    My "Golden Boy"? If you're not going to be mature or fair then the kiddies table is stage right.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    I don't know. I know it's been reported that it's Silvestri but do you think that if he was the only one standing in the way that he wouldn't have been pressured by now to compromise?
    There were already reports of people within MLSE trying to sell Colangelo to Silvestri so I will go with the answer that he's already experienced pressure.

    Quote sleepz wrote: View Post
    Does he have enuff juice to block this himself? Wouldn't the Teachers at least step in and ask him the reasons for his denial of BC's extension? I have a feeling there is more to this than we the public know.
    The teachers care about making money. I'm thinking they only step in if it negatively affects the bottom line or the sale of their majority shares in MLSE.

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    of course, this is in your opinion.

    i was around when babcock was hired and i already know all the stories of how the selection of haffa happened. the only disadvantage babcock would have had was not being able to attend pre-draft work-outs that the toronto raptors held. if you can find a general manager/ assistant general manager who isn't up to speed on the players in the draft, they're not doing the due diligence that their job requires.

    so, even if babcock was that ill-prepared for the draft, wouldn't the interim general manager who remained with the organization have a larger influence than jim kelly? i find it kind of silly that one man can be responsible for the failures of the draft, yet when we're successful at it, it's another's fortunes. we pick and chose i guess.

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    Quote funkie wrote: View Post
    of course, this is in your opinion.

    i was around when babcock was hired and i already know all the stories of how the selection of haffa happened. the only disadvantage babcock would have had was not being able to attend pre-draft work-outs that the toronto raptors held. if you can find a general manager/ assistant general manager who isn't up to speed on the players in the draft, they're not doing the due diligence that their job requires.

    so, even if babcock was that ill-prepared for the draft, wouldn't the interim general manager who remained with the organization have a larger influence than jim kelly? i find it kind of silly that one man can be responsible for the failures of the draft, yet when we're successful at it, it's another's fortunes. we pick and chose i guess.
    Well the reasoning was that they were doing due diligence, it's just that they invested their time in players who would realistically be on the board at 29th overall. Tell me, did the Magic bring in Turner, Favors and Cousins last year for workouts? The answer to my question is no. Even if they wanted to, which they probably didn't, top prospects aren't giving a team at #29 the time of day unless they know that team is trading up for them. Up close and personal workouts is where you find out the most information about a player.

    And I'm not saying that Jim Kelly is entirely responsible but I am saying he was a strong influence and I personally don't feel comfortable with him being a strong influence again with a high lotto pick on the line.

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    do you not believe that teams don't prepare for the possibility for a draft day deal? there's absolutely no reasons the wolves shouldn't have scouted a player that was a fringe lottery selection. turner, favours and cousins, you're right. but lets take into consideration that scouting players like bledsoe, babbit or sanders would be a more fitting example. as i previously stated, the only disadvantage he would have was not having the opportunity to attend the pre-draft work-outs.

    i also open-heartedly disagree with the personal workouts being the most important. if anything, they're best for a judge of character on a one-to-one basis. game play with always be the best way to determine what a player can and cannot do, especially when players cannot work-out against NBA talent during these work-outs.

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    Quote funkie wrote: View Post
    do you not believe that teams don't prepare for the possibility for a draft day deal?
    I do believe so when they want to do draft day deals. If a team is not interested in moving up the board then I believe they probably wouldn't scout those top dogs heavily if at all. Do you think average Joe on the street is looking at yacht brochures? What's the point if he knows it's not in play and he isn't interested?

    Quote funkie wrote: View Post
    there's absolutely no reasons the wolves shouldn't have scouted a player that was a fringe lottery selection.
    It's a good thing I'm not a Wolves fan.

    Quote funkie wrote: View Post
    i also open-heartedly disagree with the personal workouts being the most important. if anything, they're best for a judge of character on a one-to-one basis. game play with always be the best way to determine what a player can and cannot do, especially when players cannot work-out against NBA talent during these work-outs.
    A lot of times they do work the guys out against other prospects. They only don't do it when the player refuses. Typically they bring in groups of guys on different days.

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