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Stein: If not Colangelo, Raps to draft in Embry?

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  • #16
    slaw wrote: View Post
    So, the Raps scouting department has nothing to do with picks unless you can find a media source explicitly quoting their involvement. Got it.
    No, but you can read information and then apply logic and reasoning to situations to determine plausible answers. Babcock had no prep time and it was documented he trusted his scouting department greatly. Colangelo in 2009 had the entire year to prep for the draft. FYI, Colangelo has a far superior draft record pre-Raptors to anything Jim Kelly's name has been associated with in any regime.

    slaw wrote: View Post
    Also, I am well aware of how Raps fans feel about Jim Kelly but your golden boy Colangelo obviously thinks highly enough of him to keep him around and even complimented the scouting department on the last two drafts. Hey, you can Google that!
    My "Golden Boy"? If you're not going to be mature or fair then the kiddies table is stage right.

    sleepz wrote: View Post
    I don't know. I know it's been reported that it's Silvestri but do you think that if he was the only one standing in the way that he wouldn't have been pressured by now to compromise?
    There were already reports of people within MLSE trying to sell Colangelo to Silvestri so I will go with the answer that he's already experienced pressure.

    sleepz wrote: View Post
    Does he have enuff juice to block this himself? Wouldn't the Teachers at least step in and ask him the reasons for his denial of BC's extension? I have a feeling there is more to this than we the public know.
    The teachers care about making money. I'm thinking they only step in if it negatively affects the bottom line or the sale of their majority shares in MLSE.

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    • #17
      of course, this is in your opinion.

      i was around when babcock was hired and i already know all the stories of how the selection of haffa happened. the only disadvantage babcock would have had was not being able to attend pre-draft work-outs that the toronto raptors held. if you can find a general manager/ assistant general manager who isn't up to speed on the players in the draft, they're not doing the due diligence that their job requires.

      so, even if babcock was that ill-prepared for the draft, wouldn't the interim general manager who remained with the organization have a larger influence than jim kelly? i find it kind of silly that one man can be responsible for the failures of the draft, yet when we're successful at it, it's another's fortunes. we pick and chose i guess.

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      • #18
        funkie wrote: View Post
        of course, this is in your opinion.

        i was around when babcock was hired and i already know all the stories of how the selection of haffa happened. the only disadvantage babcock would have had was not being able to attend pre-draft work-outs that the toronto raptors held. if you can find a general manager/ assistant general manager who isn't up to speed on the players in the draft, they're not doing the due diligence that their job requires.

        so, even if babcock was that ill-prepared for the draft, wouldn't the interim general manager who remained with the organization have a larger influence than jim kelly? i find it kind of silly that one man can be responsible for the failures of the draft, yet when we're successful at it, it's another's fortunes. we pick and chose i guess.
        Well the reasoning was that they were doing due diligence, it's just that they invested their time in players who would realistically be on the board at 29th overall. Tell me, did the Magic bring in Turner, Favors and Cousins last year for workouts? The answer to my question is no. Even if they wanted to, which they probably didn't, top prospects aren't giving a team at #29 the time of day unless they know that team is trading up for them. Up close and personal workouts is where you find out the most information about a player.

        And I'm not saying that Jim Kelly is entirely responsible but I am saying he was a strong influence and I personally don't feel comfortable with him being a strong influence again with a high lotto pick on the line.

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        • #19
          do you not believe that teams don't prepare for the possibility for a draft day deal? there's absolutely no reasons the wolves shouldn't have scouted a player that was a fringe lottery selection. turner, favours and cousins, you're right. but lets take into consideration that scouting players like bledsoe, babbit or sanders would be a more fitting example. as i previously stated, the only disadvantage he would have was not having the opportunity to attend the pre-draft work-outs.

          i also open-heartedly disagree with the personal workouts being the most important. if anything, they're best for a judge of character on a one-to-one basis. game play with always be the best way to determine what a player can and cannot do, especially when players cannot work-out against NBA talent during these work-outs.

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          • #20
            funkie wrote: View Post
            do you not believe that teams don't prepare for the possibility for a draft day deal?
            I do believe so when they want to do draft day deals. If a team is not interested in moving up the board then I believe they probably wouldn't scout those top dogs heavily if at all. Do you think average Joe on the street is looking at yacht brochures? What's the point if he knows it's not in play and he isn't interested?

            funkie wrote: View Post
            there's absolutely no reasons the wolves shouldn't have scouted a player that was a fringe lottery selection.
            It's a good thing I'm not a Wolves fan.

            funkie wrote: View Post
            i also open-heartedly disagree with the personal workouts being the most important. if anything, they're best for a judge of character on a one-to-one basis. game play with always be the best way to determine what a player can and cannot do, especially when players cannot work-out against NBA talent during these work-outs.
            A lot of times they do work the guys out against other prospects. They only don't do it when the player refuses. Typically they bring in groups of guys on different days.

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            • #21
              i like analogies, especially ones that makes sense

              if a person has $20,000 for a new car, do you think that they'll compare it to ones that are $50,000 to see if their value measures up to the competition?


              i think you misunderstood what i said about the work-outs

              have you ever watched the draft specials on raptorsTV? they have the players run a series of drills and light 2 on 2 work-outs. you're not going to determine how good of a basketball player they are, just how quickly they can learn and how acceptable they are to coaching.

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              • #22
                lets face it guys he is gone!

                let embry take over as GM full tiime, let jay triano go! and make alex head coach, get oakley back in here and ewing. I can live with embry and alex.

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                • #23
                  You scout prospects you feel could be in play all year. You bring them in for workouts when the season is over to answer questions oustanding and to get a closer look. It's the "test drive".

                  I don't like your analogy because how good John Wall is is irrelevant to how good Eric Bledsoe is. I would hope that for a manager or scout's sake that they got to that point while seeing hundreds of prospects and current pros and so they have all the comparisons they need already filed away inside thier brain. Comparing one lesser gamble that's out of play against a gamble that is in play serves little point in my opinion.

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                  • #24
                    you might not like it, but it applies. comparable are a scouts bread and butter. if john wall is the top prospect/most nba ready player in college basketball, he'll be a measuring stick for other college basketball point guards that year.

                    we don't agree on the work-outs. i think it's more for personality/ability to take instruction/coach-ability than it is to see their skills in small drills and work-outs. fair's fair.
                    Last edited by funkie; Wed Apr 20, 2011, 06:26 PM.

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                    • #25
                      It makes sense to me. The fact that lock out might take almost a year, why do we want to pay another GM free money to just hang out ?

                      Let Embry handle the trade while you Kick BC out and save a few bucks.

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                      • #26
                        Whenever I think of Wayne Embry, I think of the guy that traded Ron Harper, who was on the verge of stardom before wrecking his knee, for Danny Ferry, a move that ended up dooming the franchise to mediocrity. He's certainly done some good things, like drafting Mark Price and John Williams and other moves. But he royally screwed up there.
                        Read my blog, The Picket Fence. Guaranteed to make you think or your money back!
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                        • #27
                          I like BC I wanna see him get a chance to rebuild this team, he has shown that he is good at drafting, and that he is capable of making the blockbuster trade. I like his aggressiveness and his record speaks for itself, even after the bad years with TO. I think that we need an upgrade at coach though, even PJ carlesimo, someone who is able to get the players to buy in defensively which I think Triano has been unable to do, would be better.
                          "Defense wins championships."

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                          • #28
                            SuperRaptor wrote: View Post
                            I like BC I wanna see him get a chance to rebuild this team, he has shown that he is good at drafting, and that he is capable of making the blockbuster trade. I like his aggressiveness and his record speaks for itself, even after the bad years with TO. I think that we need an upgrade at coach though, even PJ carlesimo, someone who is able to get the players to buy in defensively which I think Triano has been unable to do, would be better.
                            Well if he is following the OKC blueprint, PJ should be named the head coach now. lol

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                            • #29
                              Re the Hoffa draft I remember that Jack McCloskey was the consultant on the team prior to the Babcock hiring and apparently had much influence on the pick.

                              Re BC, I dont understand why they are letting him wither in the wind if its already decided...doesnt make sense with the season over and just a couple of mos. to go. Embry or Eversley etc can take care of matters and this spectacle can stop. Its doing nothing for the org. Looks like a bit of a power struggle happening.

                              Edit: a little trip down memory lane...a baaad one...

                              http://theflagrancy.typepad.com/the_...aptor__15.html
                              Last edited by Bendit; Wed Apr 20, 2011, 08:08 PM.

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                              • #30
                                grindhouse wrote: View Post
                                lets face it guys he is gone!

                                let embry take over as GM full tiime, let jay triano go! and make alex head coach, get oakley back in here and ewing. I can live with embry and alex.
                                Why I don't understand? Everybody knew that this year was gonna suck, that we had a young inexperienced team. It doesn't make sense to fire Colangelo after he's already delivered 2 gems in Derozan and Davis. This guy is known for drafting solid players, to not let him run ship while going into the draft would be absolutely mind boggling. Who are we bringing in to replace him again? What experience do they have drafting? You do realize Derozan and Davis have gotten way better under Triano, what more did you expect? Raptors fans just need to sit back, and realize that its not all about homeruns in short intervals.

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