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Thread: Must do's for 2011-2012

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Default Must do's for 2011-2012

    Forget the GM situation for a moment....

    What are things the Raps must do to prepare for 2011-2012?

    Here is the top of my list:

    Trade Calderon.

    He will not be here long term. His value may never be higher if he gets injured again (not a big 'if'). If Irving is drafted, start him immediately. If Irving is not drafted, give Bayless his chance. He has one year left on his deal, lets see what he can do over a full season - 18.1ppg and 6.7ast in 14 starts this year. If he excels - awesome, we have our PG. If he fails, there will most likely be another high draft pick next year with a couple of good PG's coming out - Kabongo happening to possibly be one of them.

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    Raptors Republic Rookie LeetGoose's Avatar
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    Get a defensive minded coach.

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    WHile I'm not against trading Calderon, should the right deal come along, I really don't see the need to deal him come hell or high water. About the only real negative about him is his contract, and since if you trade him you'll still have to get back a similar contract, I don't really see the point. He's a good teammate who does what's best for the team and has a positive impact whether he plays 15 minutes or 30. His defense obviously isn't good, but it's also not as bad as some seem to think. And, quite frankly, he plays a position that can be covered easier (hence players like Nash, Deron Williams etc). Obviously he's not the long term solution, but if the Raptors do draft a player like Kyrie Irving, I'd much rather have a veteran backup PG who can mentor him than a guy like Bayless. In fact if the Raptors draft Irving, Bayless would be my first (or second) trade.
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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    -Trade White Swan while getting decent value for him.
    -Trade Calderon, or bring him off of the bench. Under no circumstances start him if we have a healthy prospect (Bayless, Walker, Irving, Knight) on the roster.
    -Address the issue at the 5, mainly by drafting Kanter, Biyombo, or Jonas. Bring in a mediocre, veteran C as a stopgap that can also mentor the draftee.
    -Get a decent SF.
    -Get a better coach.

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    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    WHile I'm not against trading Calderon, should the right deal come along, I really don't see the need to deal him come hell or high water. About the only real negative about him is his contract, and since if you trade him you'll still have to get back a similar contract, I don't really see the point. He's a good teammate who does what's best for the team and has a positive impact whether he plays 15 minutes or 30. His defense obviously isn't good, but it's also not as bad as some seem to think. And, quite frankly, he plays a position that can be covered easier (hence players like Nash, Deron Williams etc). Obviously he's not the long term solution, but if the Raptors do draft a player like Kyrie Irving, I'd much rather have a veteran backup PG who can mentor him than a guy like Bayless. In fact if the Raptors draft Irving, Bayless would be my first (or second) trade.
    I would trade him in any reasonable trade.

    His contract is a huge negative, in my opinion. Taking back a contract depends on where he goes. Personally, I would do Calderon for Jonny Flynn/MEM draft pick (save $6M and acquire an asset in the pick as a sweetner in another deal - like Bargnani).

    Bayless has shown enough in 14 starts to warrant an opportunity to start full time. By the time the Raps are able to compete for the playoffs again, Calderon will be gone anyways. And if Bayless fails or is not the man for the job, he is an expiring.

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    Raptors Republic All-Star Balls of Steel's Avatar
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    Trade Bargs and soon.
    “The saving of our world from pending doom will come, not through the complacent adjustment of the conforming majority, but through the creative maladjustment of a nonconforming minority.” - Martin Luther King

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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote Balls of Steel wrote: View Post
    Trade Bargs and soon.
    Stop hating, brah.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would trade him in any reasonable trade.

    His contract is a huge negative, in my opinion. Taking back a contract depends on where he goes. Personally, I would do Calderon for Jonny Flynn/MEM draft pick (save $6M and acquire an asset in the pick as a sweetner in another deal - like Bargnani).

    Bayless has shown enough in 14 starts to warrant an opportunity to start full time. By the time the Raps are able to compete for the playoffs again, Calderon will be gone anyways. And if Bayless fails or is not the man for the job, he is an expiring.
    You really think you can get Flynn and draft pick for " Huge Negative" Contract of Calderon !!! Care to elaborate why Wolfs will do something this STUPID ??!!

    Now, with all the talk about Rebuilding the right way and going after the right players and ... Do you want to tell us that you honestly think BAYLESS should be our Starting PG for next season ??!! What does qualify him for that position ?

    1) Is he Lock down defender ? No, he is not. He is actually an average defender maybe even blow the average.

    2) Is he a great passer ? No, he is not for PG position. He is actually a Shoot-First PG.

    3) Can he score ? he is streaky but he can do that abit BUT wait a minute, is that enough to give him the starting role ??!! Aren't we moving AB out because he is ONLY a scorer ??!!

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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Wtf do people have against shoot-first PGs, seriously?

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    You really think you can get Flynn and draft pick for " Huge Negative" Contract of Calderon !!! Care to elaborate why Wolfs will do something this STUPID ??!!

    Now, with all the talk about Rebuilding the right way and going after the right players and ... Do you want to tell us that you honestly think BAYLESS should be our Starting PG for next season ??!! What does qualify him for that position ?

    1) Is he Lock down defender ? No, he is not. He is actually an average defender maybe even blow the average.

    2) Is he a great passer ? No, he is not for PG position. He is actually a Shoot-First PG.

    3) Can he score ? he is streaky but he can do that abit BUT wait a minute, is that enough to give him the starting role ??!! Aren't we moving AB out because he is ONLY a scorer ??!!


    To be fair, the T-Wolves have done some stupid things lol with Kahn at the helm.

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    Raptors Republic Veteran ceez's Avatar
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    I agree with matt52. He's got to go. I'm not a Jose hater at all just at this point of the rebuild his contract is a bit of an albatross. I wish him all the success in the world, but it's time to move on.
    @jerboat

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    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
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    I am not comfortable going forward with only Bayless. Yes, he can score. But nowhere near the creativity of Calderone. Which, on a team with a low skill level, is of great importance going forward. And this is whether or not we get Irving. He would be a great mentor and team player for next year.
    “I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, he’s listed as Chu Chu. I think he’s worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name.” -Tim W.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    I would trade him in any reasonable trade.

    His contract is a huge negative, in my opinion. Taking back a contract depends on where he goes. Personally, I would do Calderon for Jonny Flynn/MEM draft pick (save $6M and acquire an asset in the pick as a sweetner in another deal - like Bargnani).

    Bayless has shown enough in 14 starts to warrant an opportunity to start full time. By the time the Raps are able to compete for the playoffs again, Calderon will be gone anyways. And if Bayless fails or is not the man for the job, he is an expiring.
    Hell, I'd do Calderon for Flynn and their pick, too, but I really don't see them going for that. Most likely any trade will involve taking back a similar contract. If it doesn't, then it would be the Raptors giving up a draft pick, and I wouldn't be that desperate to get rid of Calderon. That's why I say that he probably has more value to the team than in a trade. Either you get a player back with a similar contract who might not help the team as much, or you're going to have to give up a draft pick or something in order to save money.

    As for his contract, look at it this way. He's got two years left on it, and you can think of it as a placeholder for DeRozan and/or Davis' contract. DeRozan will be scheduled for a raise when Calderon's contract is expired.
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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Wtf do people have against shoot-first PGs, seriously?
    Gotta an hour? If the guy handling the ball the most likes to shoot first, how well do you think the offense is going to run? The best offense is when everyone moves the ball and is unselfish. Shoot first PGs will often ignore open teammates and force shots. That doesn't make for happy teammates. Players don't like playing with shoot first PGs because they don't share the ball well. You ever play with a shoot first PG? It's not fun. And most shoot first PGs have no idea how to run an offense because they're not thinking of getting others involved and how to get them good shots. They're thinking of how to get themselves good shots.

    Besides, if you're a basketball player and your first inclination is to shoot, then you're not a PG.
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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Gotta an hour? If the guy handling the ball the most likes to shoot first, how well do you think the offense is going to run?
    Just fine, if the PG scores efficiently.

    The best offense is when everyone moves the ball and is unselfish. Shoot first PGs will often ignore open teammates and force shots.
    Looking for your own shot not doesn't equate to selfishness, or willingness to pass.

    That doesn't make for happy teammates. Players don't like playing with shoot first PGs because they don't share the ball well. You ever play with a shoot first PG? It's not fun.
    It's more likely because they're poor players.

    And most shoot first PGs have no idea how to run an offense because they're not thinking of getting others involved and how to get them good shots. They're thinking of how to get themselves good shots.
    And through looking for their own shot they can create for others and pass to the open man.

    And in that same way, a pass-first PG can become too passive.

    Besides, if you're a basketball player and your first inclination is to shoot, then you're not a PG.
    So Billups, Curry, Westbrook, Rose, Harris, Bibby, TJ Ford, Nelson, Arenas, Stuckey, Brooks, Jack and Parker are not, have never been, and will never be PGs? I mean, sure they might not be true PGs, but to say that they're not PGs at all?

    There isn't a difference in effectiveness in the styles. PGs need to score now. (This is another argument in which we'll never agree, huh?) Regardless of how they play, a starting PG in most cases these days (and with the way the Raptors are currently constructed) will need to be somewhat scoring minded. Ehh, I want aggressiveness, and dynamic play from my PG, regardless of style. I don't care how they play as long as they are effective.
    Last edited by WhatWhat; Wed Apr 20th, 2011 at 11:49 PM.

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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Just fine, if the PG scores efficiently.
    Only if the PG scores all the points. Unfortunately, no matter how good a scorer the PG is, the rest of the team has to score a lot, too, if you want to win. And a pass first PG is better at getting everyone involved.


    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Looking for your own shot not doesn't equate to selfishness, or willingness to pass.
    If you're looking for your own shot first, you're automatically focused on that, rather than passing to your teammates. If a PG is unselfish, he's not a shoot first PG.

    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    It's more likely because they're poor players.
    No, it's because players like to play with pass first PGs. Always have, always will. That's why players love to play with guys like Jason Kidd and Steve Nash. They know that guys like that will make them look better.

    Pass first PGs tend to make their teammates look better than shoot first PGs.

    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    And through looking for their own shot they can create for others and pass to the open man.
    Yes, they can create for others, but it's usually if their own shot isn't there. A pass first PG is going to get more people involved just because that's what he's looking to do. A shoot first PG isn't looking to get other people involved. At least that's not his first priority.

    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    And in that same way, a pass-first PG can become too passive.
    WHy do you equate pass first with lack of aggressiveness? You think Steve Nash is passive?

    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    So Billups, Curry, Westbrook, Rose, Harris, Bibby, TJ Ford, Nelson, Arenas, Stuckey, Brooks, Jack and Parker are not, have never been, and will never be PGs? I mean, sure they might not be true PGs, but to say that they're not PGs at all?
    I don't consider Stucky, Arenas or Brooks PGs. No. I consider them short SGs. And you're not going to win with guys like that, in my opinion. Curry isn't a true PG, yet, but he's smart enough that I think he'll make the transition. Billups, Rose, Nelson and Parker are certainly PGs. They all know how to run an offense and are unselfish players. Rose needs to score because he's got few scorers on his team, but I wouldn't call him a shoot first PG.

    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    There isn't a difference in effectiveness in the styles. PGs need to score now. (This is another argument in which we'll never agree, huh?) Regardless of how they play, a starting PG in most cases these days (and with the way the Raptors are currently constructed) will need to be somewhat scoring minded. Ehh, I want aggressiveness, and dynamic play from my PG, regardless of style. I don't care how they play as long as they are effective.
    There's a difference between a PG who can score and a shoot first PG. Chris Paul can score, but his first priority is setting up his teammates. That's why he makes his teammates better and why he racks up so many assists. Same with most of the elite PGs. You're confusing the ability to score with wanting to shoot first. Stick any of those guys on a team with more scorers and I guarantee you'd see them score a hell of a lot less.
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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    There's a difference between a PG who can score and a shoot first PG. Chris Paul can score, but his first priority is setting up his teammates. That's why he makes his teammates better and why he racks up so many assists. Same with most of the elite PGs. You're confusing the ability to score with wanting to shoot first. Stick any of those guys on a team with more scorers and I guarantee you'd see them score a hell of a lot less.
    Probably, especially if you don't consider Rose a shoot-first PG. I concede. I guess what you really mean of a shoot-first PG is...basically Tyreke Evans running the point? Which I too, would be against. (I'm not even sure if I would want Reke if he were playing the 2.)

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    Administrator Apollo's Avatar
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    If the Raptors don't draft a PG then I think he should stay until they find a viable replacement for him. Bayless may not be ready to start next season and even if he is, who's coming off the bench for him? Who starts in his place if he busts? Calderon will be most valuable during his final contract year in my opinion.

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    Raptors Republic Starter WhatWhat's Avatar
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    Agreed, Apollo. As a bench player, Calderon would be fine. Perhaps even great. But as a starter AGAIN, I would have a huge problem with. He simply isn't good enough defensively, and his offense is regressing pretty rapidly. We'd be better suited throwing Bayless/Irving/Knight/Walker into the fire.

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    Quote WhatWhat wrote: View Post
    Probably, especially if you don't consider Rose a shoot-first PG. I concede. I guess what you really mean of a shoot-first PG is...basically Tyreke Evans running the point? Which I too, would be against. (I'm not even sure if I would want Reke if he were playing the 2.)
    Rose only became a real scorer this year, and it was necessitated by the lack of scoring on the team. I think if he continues to score what he is, there is a real danger that he goes the route of Mike Bibby. When Bibby came into the league he was a true PG. It was amazing to watch him run a team. Then he was moved off the ball in Sacramento, and he seemed to lose the ability to run a team properly. However much success he achieved in Sacramento, I really believe it hurt his game.

    As for Tyreke, I've never been a big fan of his. He's a guy who needs the ball in his hands to be effective, but really isn't good enough to lead a good team, and he's certainly not a PG.
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