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Thread: Must do's for 2011-2012

  1. #21
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Hell, I'd do Calderon for Flynn and their pick, too, but I really don't see them going for that. Most likely any trade will involve taking back a similar contract. If it doesn't, then it would be the Raptors giving up a draft pick, and I wouldn't be that desperate to get rid of Calderon. That's why I say that he probably has more value to the team than in a trade. Either you get a player back with a similar contract who might not help the team as much, or you're going to have to give up a draft pick or something in order to save money.

    As for his contract, look at it this way. He's got two years left on it, and you can think of it as a placeholder for DeRozan and/or Davis' contract. DeRozan will be scheduled for a raise when Calderon's contract is expired.
    The suggested pick was not MIN's, it was MEM's.

  2. #22
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    I say we wait and see what draft position we get, we could fall to 5th and workouts will play a huge role in determining who we think we may draft. If we get a PG something maybe that means Jose gets shipped out for a older vet PG and some scrub to balance out the contract, or maybe we keep him send Bayless packing and have him mentor. If we go with a big man, well I don't see Jose getting moved then, but maybe Andrea.

  3. #23
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    You really think you can get Flynn and draft pick for " Huge Negative" Contract of Calderon !!! Care to elaborate why Wolfs will do something this STUPID ??!!

    Now, with all the talk about Rebuilding the right way and going after the right players and ... Do you want to tell us that you honestly think BAYLESS should be our Starting PG for next season ??!! What does qualify him for that position ?

    1) Is he Lock down defender ? No, he is not. He is actually an average defender maybe even blow the average.

    2) Is he a great passer ? No, he is not for PG position. He is actually a Shoot-First PG.

    3) Can he score ? he is streaky but he can do that abit BUT wait a minute, is that enough to give him the starting role ??!! Aren't we moving AB out because he is ONLY a scorer ??!!
    Lots of exclamation marks and capital letters - you need to check your emotions and relax, PAL. (obnoxious, no?)

    But seriously, Flynn and MEM draft pick (16 I believe) for Calderon - yes, here is why for MIN:

    1) MIN has one of youngest teams in the league - veteran PG who is pass first would be a good thing.
    2) MIN already has 11 players under contract with only $42M committed to salary in 2011-2012 - this trade makes $48M.
    3) MIN has already said they are not looking to add more youth (MEM pick not needed).
    4) MIN has the Calderon connections: Babcock, Martin, and Rubio (if not next year, season after which is Jose's last).

    Why for TOR (eventhough this was mostly explained already):

    1) Cut $6M in salary leaving them with $39M (only MEM, IND, and SAC would have more cap space) keeping in mind cap space is more than just FA's - it can be used to acquire salary in trades without having to worry about 125% + 100K rule. An extra $6M to lure an UFA or outbid for a RFA C.
    2) Not only does the trade create cap space for 2011-2012, but it would also take the payroll to $26M in 2012-2013 (including Flynn).
    3) Is Calderon going to be the PG of the future? No. Trade him while the GM can say, "He is a double, double PG."
    4) Calderon's injury history should be scary to Raps fans. He is talking about playing for Spain in Olympics in 2012 - how has his international play helped his injury status in the past? Answer: very little.
    5) The defensive argument is a weak one considering Jose's less than inspiring D. Jose's OPP PER is 18, Bayless' is 16.3. Neither are outstanding but Bayless is still better. (*EDIT* Bayless is 19 not 18 (thank you Jeff) i.e. neither are good).
    6) 14 starts and 18.1ppg and 6.7ast. So you give up 2.5 assists but you gain 9 points plus more fouls on opposing team and more trips to foul line. I think that is what qualifies him to be given an opportunity to start.
    7) Shoot first PG? You mean like Derrick Rose? Or Russell Westbrook? Or Isiah Thomas? Or Jameer Nelson? Or Ty Lawson? Or Tony Parker? Or Chauncey Billups? A PG is permitted to score and 6.7 assists per game is not bad especially when you have a SF getting 3 assists per game.
    8) The Raps are in all likelyhood not making the playoffs next year - why not give him a chance in his final year of his deal. If he succeeds, great. If he fails, again, the playoffs are a long shot at best. His production as a starter warrants the chance, in my opinion. He is also an expiring contract next season if he does not work out.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 12:03 PM.

  4. #24
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Lots of exclamation marks and capital letters - you need to check your emotions and relax, PAL. (obnoxious, no?)

    But seriously, Flynn and MEM draft pick (16 I believe) for Calderon - yes, here is why for MIN:

    1) MIN has one of youngest teams in the league - veteran PG who is pass first would be a good thing.
    2) MIN already has 11 players under contract with only $42M committed to salary in 2011-2012 - this trade makes $48M.
    3) MIN has already said they are not looking to add more youth (MEM pick not needed).
    4) MIN has the Calderon connections: Babcock, Martin, and Rubio (if not next year, season after which is Jose's last).

    Why for TOR (eventhough this was mostly explained already):

    1) Cut $6M in salary leaving them with $39M (only MEM, IND, and SAC would have more cap space) keeping in mind cap space is more than just FA's - it can be used to acquire salary in trades without having to worry about 125% + 100K rule. An extra $6M to lure an UFA or outbid for a RFA C.
    2) Not only does the trade create cap space for 2011-2012, but it would also take the payroll to $26M in 2012-2013 (including Flynn).
    3) Is Calderon going to be the PG of the future? No. Trade him while the GM can say, "He is a double, double PG."
    4) Calderon's injury history should be scary to Raps fans. He is talking about playing for Spain in Olympics in 2012 - how has his international play helped his injury status in the past? Answer: very little.
    5) The defensive argument is a weak one considering Jose's less than inspiring D. Jose's OPP PER is 18, Bayless' is 16.3. Neither are outstanding but Bayless is still better.
    6) 14 starts and 18.1ppg and 6.7ast. So you give up 2.5 assists but you gain 9 points plus more fouls on opposing team and more trips to foul line. I think that is what qualifies him to be given an opportunity to start.
    7) Shoot first PG? You mean like Derrick Rose? Or Russell Westbrook? Or Isiah Thomas? Or Jameer Nelson? Or Ty Lawson? Or Tony Parker? Or Chauncey Billups? A PG is permitted to score and 6.7 assists per game is not bad especially when you have a SF getting 3 assists per game.
    8) The Raps are in all likelyhood not making the playoffs next year - why not give him a chance in his final year of his deal. If he succeeds, great. If he fails, again, the playoffs are a long shot at best. His production as a starter warrants the chance, in my opinion. He is also an expiring contract next season if he does not work out.
    Luke Ridnour at 4 mil a year is a better fit than Jose at 9 mil per. Luke is locked up till the 2013/14 season, the wolves just don't need Jose.

  5. #25
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    Luke Ridnour at 4 mil a year is a better fit than Jose at 9 mil per. Luke is locked up till the 2013/14 season, the wolves just don't need Jose.
    While Jose is an arguable starter, Ridnour is a definite back up - a very good one at that.

    Jose > Luke

    I am not sure how much weight the connections Jose has carries but Babcock, Martin, and Rubio are some interesting coincidences in my opinion.

    I think Ridnour would have very good trade value around the league. An effective veteran back up PG on a reasonable contract would be very valuable to a playoff team - the Knicks were reportedly very much after him around December.

  6. #26
    Raptors Republic All-Star WJF's Avatar
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    I would rather trade for Ridnour than Flynn. Flynn has the "upside, but if we don't frat a PG I would be happy with a Bayless/Ridour combo. Luke has started almost 60% (more than Jose) of the NBA games he has played in, if Bayless struggles as a starter, Luke is more than capable of taking over.

  7. #27
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote WJF wrote: View Post
    I would rather trade for Ridnour than Flynn. Flynn has the "upside, but if we don't frat a PG I would be happy with a Bayless/Ridour combo. Luke has started almost 60% (more than Jose) of the NBA games he has played in, if Bayless struggles as a starter, Luke is more than capable of taking over.
    I would not be opposed to that either.

    If I am permitted to dream for a moment:

    Draft Irving, trade Calderon for Ridnour/MEM pick, trade Bayless/Bargnani with value in return coming to TOR.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 09:56 AM.

  8. #28
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    It appears this thread has become more of a discussion about the PG position, than an overall 2011-2012 discussion. Here is my take.

    Ideally, the Raptors' PG position is an easy 3-step fix:

    1) get lucky and draft Irving
    2) Calderon is Irving's backup and mentor to help instill the calming, pass-first PG mentality
    3) Bayless becomes excellent trade bait (good, young, lots of potential, cheap salary)

  9. #29
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    It appears this thread has become more of a discussion about the PG position, than an overall 2011-2012 discussion. Here is my take.

    Ideally, the Raptors' PG position is an easy 3-step fix:

    1) get lucky and draft Irving
    2) Calderon is Irving's backup and mentor to help instill the calming, pass-first PG mentality
    3) Bayless becomes excellent trade bait (good, young, lots of potential, cheap salary)
    As most threads do, it went in one direction. Any other 'Must do's' for 2011-2012?

    Coach?
    GM?
    SF?
    C?
    Bench?
    Barbosa?
    Trades?

  10. #30
    Super Moderator CalgaryRapsFan's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    As most threads do, it went in one direction. Any other 'Must do's' for 2011-2012?

    Coach?
    GM?
    SF?
    C?
    Bench?
    Barbosa?
    Trades?
    It's tough to say, because I think some moves will all be domino-effect type moves, depending on the draft. A couple must-do's that I can think of:

    1) do NOT re-sign any of the teams's 5 free agents - Ajinca, Evans, Dorsey, Weems, Wright

    2) trade Barbosa - he is NOT in the Raptors' long-term plans, but he had a good season that showed teams that he still has a couple seasons left and his expiring contract will be inviting (assuming that he does exercise his option)

    3) trade Alabi - I personally don't think he will improve enough next season to warrant a second contract in Toronto, so I would try to unload his expiring contract for a 2nd-round pick (my first call would be to Masai Ujiri in Denver, who has history with him and was the main thrust behind Toronto acquiring him)

    4) keep BC - my opinion/reasons are in the "retain BC" thread, but I basically think he should get 2 more seasons to continue his true rebuiling work that started the moment Bosh left

    5) keep JT for 1 season + option seasons - next year may be lost, so I really see no point to bringing in a new coach, especially not an expensive one. JT has the players' respect and did a good job developing the youngsters and keeping the team motivated and competitive for most of the season. How he fares next season, supposedly with an improved roster, will go a long way to determining whether he is a legit NBA coach or not for me.

    6) decide on the 'bigs' rotation - regardless what is done with the existing roster, I agree that the team needs a defensive-minded C. Assuming the team is able to magically find this player, the team needs to take decisive action to clear up the C/PF rotation... I think they need to trade either Bargnani or Amir, unless the defensive C they acquire is not a long-term piece of the core, then they could potentially go with a 4-big rotation. Although I agree that Bargnani should not keep his starting C spot when next year begins, I don't believe that automatically means that he's a scrub and should be traded... I would be open to trading Bargnani or Amir, if a good deal came along that addressed the team's need at C or SF for the long-term, but don't trade either of them just for the sake of trading them. I would be happy keeping Bargnani & Amir and with a 4-big rotation, but I would be worried that there wouldn't be enough minutes to go around.

    7) roster - aside from what I listed above, any additional decisions will be dependent on the draft and what they bring back in potential deals for Barbosa, Bargnani/Amir, Bayless (if Irving is drafted) and Alabi
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 11:02 AM.

  11. #31
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Tim W. wrote: View Post
    Rose only became a real scorer this year, and it was necessitated by the lack of scoring on the team. I think if he continues to score what he is, there is a real danger that he goes the route of Mike Bibby. When Bibby came into the league he was a true PG. It was amazing to watch him run a team. Then he was moved off the ball in Sacramento, and he seemed to lose the ability to run a team properly. However much success he achieved in Sacramento, I really believe it hurt his game.

    As for Tyreke, I've never been a big fan of his. He's a guy who needs the ball in his hands to be effective, but really isn't good enough to lead a good team, and he's certainly not a PG.
    Rose has always been a scorer, even when Ben Gordon was still with Chicago, Rose was averaging 20 a game. I dont think its the lack of scoring or scorers, but rather Rose just was pretty much handed the reigns for his team and so he's decided to score more. I dont think Rose is comparable to Bibby in any way. Bibby is a jumpshooter and Rose is more of a slasher. Bibby was never a scorer, he may have been a shoot-first guard at some point in his career but he never averaged more than 20 a game. I honestly sometimes dont know if Bibby was a good PG, he may have run an offense effectively, but it never showed in the assists column. If you think of how many scorers he actually played with and yet he didnt become a double-digit assist player, makes you wonder how effective he really was as a playmaker. And Rose, definitely not a shoot-first PG. Scoring PG, yes. You can see him bring the ball down and look for teammates first and foremost, then creates his own shot if he cant find open teammates. If we're comparing him with Bayless, Bayless is definitely a shoot-first PG. Ive seen him numerous times bring the ball down and shoot the ball without looking for teammates. And i dont blame him, a scorer is a scorer, its up to the coach to put him where he is more effective.

    Tyreke is what Bargnani is to Toronto, the enigmas of enigmas, hehehe.
    I cant understand anything about this guy, he fills stats sheets yet i feel he's not highly regarded in the league. takes him 16 shots to get 6 in, 29% in 3pT range, 77%ft. yikes. and yet he averages 17/4/5 which are really good numbers. i dont know, im confused.

  12. #32
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote tbihis wrote: View Post
    Tyreke is what Bargnani is to Toronto, the enigmas of enigmas, hehehe.
    I cant understand anything about this guy, he fills stats sheets yet i feel he's not highly regarded in the league. takes him 16 shots to get 6 in, 29% in 3pT range, 77%ft. yikes. and yet he averages 17/4/5 which are really good numbers. i dont know, im confused.
    In my opinion, the jury is still out on Tyreke. Plantar fascititis is a tough injury to have and play effectively - or at all - with.

  13. #33
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    The suggested pick was not MIN's, it was MEM's.
    I'd do that, too. However much I like Calderon, to get a half decent PG, a mid-first round pick and not having to take back his salary would be too much to pass up on. Still, I don't see Minnesota doing it. Not even with Kahn running the team.
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    Raptors Republic Starter jeff_hostetler's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    5) The defensive argument is a weak one considering Jose's less than inspiring D. Jose's OPP PER is 18, Bayless' is 16.3. Neither are outstanding but Bayless is still better.
    Actually, that's not true (where did you get those numbers from?).

    According to 82games, Calderon's Opp. PER is 15.8 (average). Bayless' is 19.0 (below-average to bad).

  15. #35
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Forget the GM situation for a moment....

    What are things the Raps must do to prepare for 2011-2012?

    Here is the top of my list:

    Trade Calderon.

    He will not be here long term. His value may never be higher if he gets injured again (not a big 'if'). If Irving is drafted, start him immediately. If Irving is not drafted, give Bayless his chance. He has one year left on his deal, lets see what he can do over a full season - 18.1ppg and 6.7ast in 14 starts this year. If he excels - awesome, we have our PG. If he fails, there will most likely be another high draft pick next year with a couple of good PG's coming out - Kabongo happening to possibly be one of them.
    IMO, it doesnt matter who we draft or FA we get, the season will hinge on whether Bargnani stays or go.

    If Bargnani stays, no doubt he will still be the focal point of this team. Dont say he's going to come off the bench or play less minutes coz youre just setting yourself up for disappointment. if he stays, he will still be the franchise player. coz if he stays, that means BC and Jay are still at the helm.

    So if bargnani stays:

    get him a damn good defensive coach
    keep DD, Amir, Ed, JJ, Bayless, Calderon
    Get a defensive center FA
    get best player in the draft, develop
    dont expect too much

    If Bargnani gets traded then party at my house. kidding!

    get a defensive center FA
    keep DD, amir, ed and calderon
    trade JJ and bayless
    draft PG

  16. #36
    Raptors Republic Superstar TheGloveinRapsUniform's Avatar
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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    In my opinion, the jury is still out on Tyreke. Plantar fascititis is a tough injury to have and play effectively - or at all - with.
    oh yeah thats right i forgot about that.
    maybe that is the reason for his erratic play.

  17. #37
    Raptors Republic All-Star charlesnba23's Avatar
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    Personally, I'd absolutely keep Calderon. He's a true leader for this team. But I'd make him come off the bench, behind Bayless.

    -Draft a Small Forward or a Center
    -Trade Bargnani for a guy of the position we didn't get in the draft.

    I sincerely think that the team would benefit from those things. Those are the must do's in my opinion, but if we can draft Kyrie Irving and Derrick Williams is gone, take him, but don't do it for other point guards. In this situation, I think they still should trade Bargnani for a Center or a SF and then we could certainly go after some centers of small forwards in the free agency market.
    Last edited by charlesnba23; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 11:44 AM.

  18. #38
    Raptors Republic Hall of Famer mcHAPPY's Avatar
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    Quote jeff_hostetler wrote: View Post
    Actually, that's not true (where did you get those numbers from?).

    According to 82games, Calderon's Opp. PER is 15.8 (average). Bayless' is 19.0 (below-average to bad).
    If that is the case, then I really messed up. I apologize. I was going from memory of a few days ago.

    *EDIT* We are both wrong, well, me totally wrong, you half wrong - Calderon is 18 and Bayless is 19.
    Last edited by mcHAPPY; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 12:01 PM.

  19. #39
    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
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    I find this thread makes me start disbelieving this PER thing.
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

  20. #40
    Raptors Republic Starter bloodyhandedgod's Avatar
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    Matt52 what did you mean by "it can be used to acquire salary in trades without having to worry about 125% + 100K rule."

    Thx.
    I have no idea who Chukwudiebere Maduabum is, but on his Draft Express profile, hes listed as Chu Chu. I think hes worthy of picking just for that. He immediately is in the running for best All-Time NBA name. -Tim W.

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