Must do's for 2011-2012

[Tim W.]

Just fine, if the PG scores efficiently.

Only if the PG scores all the points. Unfortunately, no matter how good a scorer the PG is, the rest of the team has to score a lot, too, if you want to win. And a pass first PG is better at getting everyone involved.

Looking for your own shot not doesn't equate to selfishness, or willingness to pass.

If you're looking for your own shot first, you're automatically focused on that, rather than passing to your teammates. If a PG is unselfish, he's not a shoot first PG.

It's more likely because they're poor players.

No, it's because players like to play with pass first PGs. Always have, always will. That's why players love to play with guys like Jason Kidd and Steve Nash. They know that guys like that will make them look better.

Pass first PGs tend to make their teammates look better than shoot first PGs.

And through looking for their own shot they can create for others and pass to the open man.

Yes, they can create for others, but it's usually if their own shot isn't there. A pass first PG is going to get more people involved just because that's what he's looking to do. A shoot first PG isn't looking to get other people involved. At least that's not his first priority.

And in that same way, a pass-first PG can become too passive.

WHy do you equate pass first with lack of aggressiveness? You think Steve Nash is passive?

So Billups, Curry, Westbrook, Rose, Harris, Bibby, TJ Ford, Nelson, Arenas, Stuckey, Brooks, Jack and Parker are not, have never been, and will never be PGs? I mean, sure they might not be true PGs, but to say that they're not PGs at all?

I don't consider Stucky, Arenas or Brooks PGs. No. I consider them short SGs. And you're not going to win with guys like that, in my opinion. Curry isn't a true PG, yet, but he's smart enough that I think he'll make the transition. Billups, Rose, Nelson and Parker are certainly PGs. They all know how to run an offense and are unselfish players. Rose needs to score because he's got few scorers on his team, but I wouldn't call him a shoot first PG.

There isn't a difference in effectiveness in the styles. PGs need to score now. (This is another argument in which we'll never agree, huh?) Regardless of how they play, a starting PG in most cases these days (and with the way the Raptors are currently constructed) will need to be somewhat scoring minded. Ehh, I want aggressiveness, and dynamic play from my PG, regardless of style. I don't care how they play as long as they are effective.

There's a difference between a PG who can score and a shoot first PG. Chris Paul can score, but his first priority is setting up his teammates. That's why he makes his teammates better and why he racks up so many assists. Same with most of the elite PGs. You're confusing the ability to score with wanting to shoot first. Stick any of those guys on a team with more scorers and I guarantee you'd see them score a hell of a lot less.

[WhatWhat]

There's a difference between a PG who can score and a shoot first PG. Chris Paul can score, but his first priority is setting up his teammates. That's why he makes his teammates better and why he racks up so many assists. Same with most of the elite PGs. You're confusing the ability to score with wanting to shoot first. Stick any of those guys on a team with more scorers and I guarantee you'd see them score a hell of a lot less.

Probably, especially if you don't consider Rose a shoot-first PG. I concede. I guess what you really mean of a shoot-first PG is...basically Tyreke Evans running the point? Which I too, would be against. (I'm not even sure if I would want Reke if he were playing the 2.)

[Apollo]

If the Raptors don't draft a PG then I think he should stay until they find a viable replacement for him. Bayless may not be ready to start next season and even if he is, who's coming off the bench for him? Who starts in his place if he busts? Calderon will be most valuable during his final contract year in my opinion.

[WhatWhat]

Agreed, Apollo. As a bench player, Calderon would be fine. Perhaps even great. But as a starter AGAIN, I would have a huge problem with. He simply isn't good enough defensively, and his offense is regressing pretty rapidly. We'd be better suited throwing Bayless/Irving/Knight/Walker into the fire.

[Tim W.]

Probably, especially if you don't consider Rose a shoot-first PG. I concede. I guess what you really mean of a shoot-first PG is...basically Tyreke Evans running the point? Which I too, would be against. (I'm not even sure if I would want Reke if he were playing the 2.)

Rose only became a real scorer this year, and it was necessitated by the lack of scoring on the team. I think if he continues to score what he is, there is a real danger that he goes the route of Mike Bibby. When Bibby came into the league he was a true PG. It was amazing to watch him run a team. Then he was moved off the ball in Sacramento, and he seemed to lose the ability to run a team properly. However much success he achieved in Sacramento, I really believe it hurt his game.

As for Tyreke, I've never been a big fan of his. He's a guy who needs the ball in his hands to be effective, but really isn't good enough to lead a good team, and he's certainly not a PG.

[mcHAPPY]

Hell, I'd do Calderon for Flynn and their pick, too, but I really don't see them going for that. Most likely any trade will involve taking back a similar contract. If it doesn't, then it would be the Raptors giving up a draft pick, and I wouldn't be that desperate to get rid of Calderon. That's why I say that he probably has more value to the team than in a trade. Either you get a player back with a similar contract who might not help the team as much, or you're going to have to give up a draft pick or something in order to save money.

As for his contract, look at it this way. He's got two years left on it, and you can think of it as a placeholder for DeRozan and/or Davis' contract. DeRozan will be scheduled for a raise when Calderon's contract is expired.

The suggested pick was not MIN's, it was MEM's.

[WJF]

I say we wait and see what draft position we get, we could fall to 5th and workouts will play a huge role in determining who we think we may draft. If we get a PG something maybe that means Jose gets shipped out for a older vet PG and some scrub to balance out the contract, or maybe we keep him send Bayless packing and have him mentor. If we go with a big man, well I don't see Jose getting moved then, but maybe Andrea.

[mcHAPPY]

You really think you can get Flynn and draft pick for " Huge Negative" Contract of Calderon !!! Care to elaborate why Wolfs will do something this STUPID ??!!

Now, with all the talk about Rebuilding the right way and going after the right players and ... Do you want to tell us that you honestly think BAYLESS should be our Starting PG for next season ??!! What does qualify him for that position ?

1) Is he Lock down defender ? No, he is not. He is actually an average defender maybe even blow the average.

2) Is he a great passer ? No, he is not for PG position. He is actually a Shoot-First PG.

3) Can he score ? he is streaky but he can do that abit BUT wait a minute, is that enough to give him the starting role ??!! Aren't we moving AB out because he is ONLY a scorer ??!!

Lots of exclamation marks and capital letters - you need to check your emotions and relax, PAL. (obnoxious, no?)

But seriously, Flynn and MEM draft pick (16 I believe) for Calderon - yes, here is why for MIN:

1) MIN has one of youngest teams in the league - veteran PG who is pass first would be a good thing.
2) MIN already has 11 players under contract with only $42M committed to salary in 2011-2012 - this trade makes $48M.
3) MIN has already said they are not looking to add more youth (MEM pick not needed).
4) MIN has the Calderon connections: Babcock, Martin, and Rubio (if not next year, season after which is Jose's last).

Why for TOR (eventhough this was mostly explained already):

1) Cut $6M in salary leaving them with $39M (only MEM, IND, and SAC would have more cap space) keeping in mind cap space is more than just FA's - it can be used to acquire salary in trades without having to worry about 125% + 100K rule. An extra $6M to lure an UFA or outbid for a RFA C.
2) Not only does the trade create cap space for 2011-2012, but it would also take the payroll to $26M in 2012-2013 (including Flynn).
3) Is Calderon going to be the PG of the future? No. Trade him while the GM can say, "He is a double, double PG."
4) Calderon's injury history should be scary to Raps fans. He is talking about playing for Spain in Olympics in 2012 - how has his international play helped his injury status in the past? Answer: very little.
5) The defensive argument is a weak one considering Jose's less than inspiring D. Jose's OPP PER is 18, Bayless' is 16.3. Neither are outstanding but Bayless is still better. (*EDIT* Bayless is 19 not 18 (thank you Jeff) i.e. neither are good).
6) 14 starts and 18.1ppg and 6.7ast. So you give up 2.5 assists but you gain 9 points plus more fouls on opposing team and more trips to foul line. I think that is what qualifies him to be given an opportunity to start.
7) Shoot first PG? You mean like Derrick Rose? Or Russell Westbrook? Or Isiah Thomas? Or Jameer Nelson? Or Ty Lawson? Or Tony Parker? Or Chauncey Billups? A PG is permitted to score and 6.7 assists per game is not bad especially when you have a SF getting 3 assists per game.
8) The Raps are in all likelyhood not making the playoffs next year - why not give him a chance in his final year of his deal. If he succeeds, great. If he fails, again, the playoffs are a long shot at best. His production as a starter warrants the chance, in my opinion. He is also an expiring contract next season if he does not work out.

[WJF]

Lots of exclamation marks and capital letters - you need to check your emotions and relax, PAL. (obnoxious, no?)

But seriously, Flynn and MEM draft pick (16 I believe) for Calderon - yes, here is why for MIN:

1) MIN has one of youngest teams in the league - veteran PG who is pass first would be a good thing.
2) MIN already has 11 players under contract with only $42M committed to salary in 2011-2012 - this trade makes $48M.
3) MIN has already said they are not looking to add more youth (MEM pick not needed).
4) MIN has the Calderon connections: Babcock, Martin, and Rubio (if not next year, season after which is Jose's last).

Why for TOR (eventhough this was mostly explained already):

1) Cut $6M in salary leaving them with $39M (only MEM, IND, and SAC would have more cap space) keeping in mind cap space is more than just FA's - it can be used to acquire salary in trades without having to worry about 125% + 100K rule. An extra $6M to lure an UFA or outbid for a RFA C.
2) Not only does the trade create cap space for 2011-2012, but it would also take the payroll to $26M in 2012-2013 (including Flynn).
3) Is Calderon going to be the PG of the future? No. Trade him while the GM can say, "He is a double, double PG."
4) Calderon's injury history should be scary to Raps fans. He is talking about playing for Spain in Olympics in 2012 - how has his international play helped his injury status in the past? Answer: very little.
5) The defensive argument is a weak one considering Jose's less than inspiring D. Jose's OPP PER is 18, Bayless' is 16.3. Neither are outstanding but Bayless is still better.
6) 14 starts and 18.1ppg and 6.7ast. So you give up 2.5 assists but you gain 9 points plus more fouls on opposing team and more trips to foul line. I think that is what qualifies him to be given an opportunity to start.
7) Shoot first PG? You mean like Derrick Rose? Or Russell Westbrook? Or Isiah Thomas? Or Jameer Nelson? Or Ty Lawson? Or Tony Parker? Or Chauncey Billups? A PG is permitted to score and 6.7 assists per game is not bad especially when you have a SF getting 3 assists per game.
8) The Raps are in all likelyhood not making the playoffs next year - why not give him a chance in his final year of his deal. If he succeeds, great. If he fails, again, the playoffs are a long shot at best. His production as a starter warrants the chance, in my opinion. He is also an expiring contract next season if he does not work out.

Luke Ridnour at 4 mil a year is a better fit than Jose at 9 mil per. Luke is locked up till the 2013/14 season, the wolves just don't need Jose.

[mcHAPPY]

Luke Ridnour at 4 mil a year is a better fit than Jose at 9 mil per. Luke is locked up till the 2013/14 season, the wolves just don't need Jose.

While Jose is an arguable starter, Ridnour is a definite back up - a very good one at that.

Jose > Luke

I am not sure how much weight the connections Jose has carries but Babcock, Martin, and Rubio are some interesting coincidences in my opinion.

I think Ridnour would have very good trade value around the league. An effective veteran back up PG on a reasonable contract would be very valuable to a playoff team - the Knicks were reportedly very much after him around December.

[WJF]

I would rather trade for Ridnour than Flynn. Flynn has the "upside, but if we don't frat a PG I would be happy with a Bayless/Ridour combo. Luke has started almost 60% (more than Jose) of the NBA games he has played in, if Bayless struggles as a starter, Luke is more than capable of taking over.

[mcHAPPY]

I would rather trade for Ridnour than Flynn. Flynn has the "upside, but if we don't frat a PG I would be happy with a Bayless/Ridour combo. Luke has started almost 60% (more than Jose) of the NBA games he has played in, if Bayless struggles as a starter, Luke is more than capable of taking over.

I would not be opposed to that either.

If I am permitted to dream for a moment:

Draft Irving, trade Calderon for Ridnour/MEM pick, trade Bayless/Bargnani with value in return coming to TOR.

[CalgaryRapsFan]

It appears this thread has become more of a discussion about the PG position, than an overall 2011-2012 discussion. Here is my take.

Ideally, the Raptors' PG position is an easy 3-step fix:

1) get lucky and draft Irving
2) Calderon is Irving's backup and mentor to help instill the calming, pass-first PG mentality
3) Bayless becomes excellent trade bait (good, young, lots of potential, cheap salary)

[mcHAPPY]

It appears this thread has become more of a discussion about the PG position, than an overall 2011-2012 discussion. Here is my take.

Ideally, the Raptors' PG position is an easy 3-step fix:

1) get lucky and draft Irving
2) Calderon is Irving's backup and mentor to help instill the calming, pass-first PG mentality
3) Bayless becomes excellent trade bait (good, young, lots of potential, cheap salary)

As most threads do, it went in one direction. Any other 'Must do's' for 2011-2012?

Coach?
GM?
SF?
C?
Bench?
Barbosa?
Trades?

[CalgaryRapsFan]

As most threads do, it went in one direction. Any other 'Must do's' for 2011-2012?

Coach?
GM?
SF?
C?
Bench?
Barbosa?
Trades?

It's tough to say, because I think some moves will all be domino-effect type moves, depending on the draft. A couple must-do's that I can think of:

1) do NOT re-sign any of the teams's 5 free agents - Ajinca, Evans, Dorsey, Weems, Wright

2) trade Barbosa - he is NOT in the Raptors' long-term plans, but he had a good season that showed teams that he still has a couple seasons left and his expiring contract will be inviting (assuming that he does exercise his option)

3) trade Alabi - I personally don't think he will improve enough next season to warrant a second contract in Toronto, so I would try to unload his expiring contract for a 2nd-round pick (my first call would be to Masai Ujiri in Denver, who has history with him and was the main thrust behind Toronto acquiring him)

4) keep BC - my opinion/reasons are in the "retain BC" thread, but I basically think he should get 2 more seasons to continue his true rebuiling work that started the moment Bosh left

5) keep JT for 1 season + option seasons - next year may be lost, so I really see no point to bringing in a new coach, especially not an expensive one. JT has the players' respect and did a good job developing the youngsters and keeping the team motivated and competitive for most of the season. How he fares next season, supposedly with an improved roster, will go a long way to determining whether he is a legit NBA coach or not for me.

6) decide on the 'bigs' rotation - regardless what is done with the existing roster, I agree that the team needs a defensive-minded C. Assuming the team is able to magically find this player, the team needs to take decisive action to clear up the C/PF rotation... I think they need to trade either Bargnani or Amir, unless the defensive C they acquire is not a long-term piece of the core, then they could potentially go with a 4-big rotation. Although I agree that Bargnani should not keep his starting C spot when next year begins, I don't believe that automatically means that he's a scrub and should be traded... I would be open to trading Bargnani or Amir, if a good deal came along that addressed the team's need at C or SF for the long-term, but don't trade either of them just for the sake of trading them. I would be happy keeping Bargnani & Amir and with a 4-big rotation, but I would be worried that there wouldn't be enough minutes to go around.

7) roster - aside from what I listed above, any additional decisions will be dependent on the draft and what they bring back in potential deals for Barbosa, Bargnani/Amir, Bayless (if Irving is drafted) and Alabi