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Thread: From RR Homepage: Cap Flexibility Must Be Why "98% of Raptors Fans LOVE Colangelo"

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    Default From RR Homepage: Cap Flexibility Must Be Why "98% of Raptors Fans LOVE Colangelo"

    Read Arse's post on the home page of RR:
    http://raptorsrepublic.com/2011/04/2...ove-colangelo/

    The cap number for next year according to HoopsHype.com is $45.046M not $47M. Assuming current cap of $58M, that is a shade under $13M minus 1st round pick so $9.25M.

    The reality is none of us knows what the trade value of Calderon, Bargnani, or Barbosa is. Bargnani, for example, is a BYC so any trade with him before July 1st would only return half his salary ($4.25M), so you can tack on another $4.25M to the available cap number if he was traded. So - possibly - all of a sudden we are at $13.5M. Barbosa opts out - tack on another $7.6M ($21.1M). I do not think he is guaranteed to be here. Take back a few million less than what is going out in any trade and all of a sudden you have a few more M to throw around.

    This is all hypothetical, of course, but I think the picture is rosier than depicted in Arse's post.

    When you consider other teams in the league, the Raps are in very good position - especially if a hard cap comes in. They have 10 guys signed up for next year at $45M ($37.4M minus Barbosa with 9 players). The only teams below them in salary are:

    WSH - $40.6M with 8 players
    SAC - $27.6M with 8 players
    NJ - $39.8M with 8 players
    MEM - $36.8M with 8 players ($51M with 9 players with ZBo extension)
    LAC - $44.9M with 9 players
    IND - $34.9M with 10 players
    DEN - $40.2 with 8 players

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    When you consider other teams in the league, the Raps are in very good position - especially if a hard cap comes in. They have 10 guys signed up for next year at $45M ($37.4M minus Barbosa with 9 players). The only teams below them in salary are:

    WSH - $40.6M with 8 players
    SAC - $27.6M with 8 players
    NJ - $39.8M with 8 players
    MEM - $36.8M with 8 players ($51M with 9 players with ZBo extension)
    LAC - $44.9M with 9 players
    IND - $34.9M with 10 players
    DEN - $40.2 with 8 players
    I'd be curious to see if the players those listed teams have under contract are as good/useful as the players the Raps have under contract, either as long-term pieces or as assets to use in trades. I'd also be curious to compare bad contracts on those teams compared to bad contracts on the Raptors. Might help people to see that the Raps really aren't in that bad of a position (ownership issues aside).

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    I'd be curious to see if the players those listed teams have under contract are as good/useful as the players the Raps have under contract, either as long-term pieces or as assets to use in trades. I'd also be curious to compare bad contracts on those teams compared to bad contracts on the Raptors. Might help people to see that the Raps really aren't in that bad of a position (ownership issues aside).
    That would be a bit of work. Anyone who was interested could go to www.HoopsHype.com/salaries.htm to take a look at those players.

    The big difference between TOR and the other bottom feeders (WSH, SAC, NJ, LAC) is those teams have spent numerous years in the lottery and have acquired some true pieces to build around with high lottery picks (Wall, Evans/Cousins, Griffin) or a recent trade in NJ's case (D-Will).

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    I didn't really get the post on the homepage given the CBA uncertainty. No one knows what the world will look like next year. I think Matt's point is a good one, namely, regardless of whatever the new CBA requires, the Raptors are in decent shape compared to everyone else.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    That would be a bit of work. Anyone who was interested could go to www.HoopsHype.com/salaries.htm to take a look at those players.

    The big difference between TOR and the other bottom feeders (WSH, SAC, NJ, LAC) is those teams have spent numerous years in the lottery and have acquired some true pieces to build around with high lottery picks (Wall, Evans/Cousins, Griffin) or a recent trade in NJ's case (D-Will).
    Good point. Another reason why fans should have patience when deciding whether or not to retain BC and about the Raptors turnaround in general. With a little luck in the draft lottery and a few good trades, the young nucleous of this team could begin to look very good, relative to other lottery teams - aside from missing a single superstar like LAC (Griffin) or possibly NJ (if D-Will re-signs)... I'm not entirely sold on WSH (Wall) or SAC (Evans/Cousins/Whiteside) yet.

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    This Thread should be renamed to :

    How to turn a positive spin on a 4.7 million Cap Room ??

    Watch out Doug Smith, we have someone here who can replace you He is as positive as you even when the team has sucked for last 5 years and seemingly has no where to go

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I didn't really get the post on the homepage given the CBA uncertainty. No one knows what the world will look like next year. I think Matt's point is a good one, namely, regardless of whatever the new CBA requires, the Raptors are in decent shape compared to everyone else.
    It does not matter how the rest of league looks like, what matters how much we have to spend !! Matt's post remind me of those 20 year old girls who go shopping based on money they don't have because they think, If this happens, then that happens and if this goes this way and ... Next you know, they have maxed out a Credit card with 19% and have no job or no cash flow

    Trading AB before July 1st ?? Barbosa saying Thank you to 8 million a year with the possibility of lock down and shrink on future salaries !!! These are huge assumptions that no sane person should make and more importantly be happy about.

    What is realistic chance of AB being traded before July 1st ? Less than 5%.
    What is a realistic chance that Barbosa say NO to 8 million ? Less than 5%.

    What Arsenalist wrote on front page is the REALITY and what you read here is a fantasy of an excited Raptor fan.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    It does not matter how the rest of league looks like, what matters how much we have to spend !! Matt's post remind me of those 20 year old girls who go shopping based on money they don't have because they think, If this happens, then that happens and if this goes this way and ... Next you know, they have maxed out a Credit card with 19% and have no job or no cash flow

    Trading AB before July 1st ?? Barbosa saying Thank you to 8 million a year with the possibility of lock down and shrink on future salaries !!! These are huge assumptions that no sane person should make and more importantly be happy about.

    What is realistic chance of AB being traded before July 1st ? Less than 5%.
    What is a realistic chance that Barbosa say NO to 8 million ? Less than 5%.

    What Arsenalist wrote on front page is the REALITY and what you read here is a fantasy of an excited Raptor fan.
    Here is reality:

    1) I said all scenarios were hypothetical. They may or may not happen, the point is no one knows what the new CBA landscape will look like. What we do know is that TOR has $37.4M tied up in 9 players, they may have $45 tied up in 10 if Barbosa opts in, and this leaves them with less salary that 23 of the 30 teams in the league but does not take in to consideration any other possible trade that could add or subtract money from their payroll between now and June 30th.
    2) Barbosa said he was not sure if he would pick up his option. Diaw was one player who said he would. I would take things at face value. Barbosa could have an opportunity for a multi-year deal worth more money - maybe less per year but it would be more guaranteed money which he may consider more valuable at this stage of his career (28 years old). The reality is you have no idea what Barbosa will do - nor do I.
    3) Barbosa says no to $7.6M less than 5% chance? Bargnani traded less than 5% chance? Says who? Seriously, you're better than this.
    4) What Arse wrote on the front page was one perspective based on facts that were not 100% accurate. This is another that very well could have a mistake somewhere in it. Your's would be a third, but wait, you didn't reply with anything of substance - just examples of: 1) university aged girls shopping that totally brought in to question reading comprehension skills given the word hypothetical was clearly used after all these scenarios were give and 2) obscure guessing at probabilities and percentages.
    5) It very much does matter what the rest of the league looks like because if a hard cap comes in (which is one of the major things the owners with all the leverage are pushing). If this comes to pass, there will only be 6 teams with more money to spend than the Raptors. Keep in mind the owners, with all the leverage, originally tabled a proposal looking for a salary cap reduction to $45M.

    Objectivity and an open mind are very useful qualities when discussing situation and scenarios - especially situations and scenarios that are to be determined. One thing I've noticed in your posts is objectivity and an open mind are very often lacking. In the words of C&C Music Factory: "Free your mind and the rest will follow." While I am a person of strong conviction, I do listen to reason but looking at your reply, once again, there is very little reason or concrete facts offered to make me question my opinions. Arguments with a foundation of hindsight and personal opinions and emotions do very little to make a compelling counter-argument.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    Here is reality:

    What Arse wrote on the front page was one perspective based on facts that were not 100% accurate.

    3) Barbosa says no to $7.6M less than 5% chance? Bargnani traded less than 5% chance? Says who? Seriously, you're better than this.
    Says anyone who has little logic and knows little about the game.

    You are not presenting reality in this thread. Reality and great writting was presented by Arsenalist on the front page when he presented 4.7 million dollar number and you have the nerve to say it was NOT 100% accurate !!

    Your whole theory is the fantasy of a excited Raptor fan with big ifs and highly unlikely scenarios and ... while what Arse pointed out is based on PURE Numbers, length of contracts and ...

    Anyway, I am not going to waste my time on this as the readers can compare what you wrote with what Arse wrote and see who has valid points and whose post has some substances BUT

    How about we make this interesting ?

    1) If AB is traded by July 1st, then I will NOT post here till beginning of the season, if NOT, then you should not make even one post here for that duration

    2) If Barbosa opts out of his 8 million dollar contract, then I will NOT post here till after ALL-STAR Break next year and if he did not opt out, then you do not post here till ALL-STAR Break !!

    How about it, Are you man enough, believe enough on what you say and what you write, to make these bets ? Come on Pal, Don't be Chicken, Lets do this. Lets stand by what you write and PROVE me Wrong
    Last edited by Raptor4Ever; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 05:13 PM.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Says anyone who has little logic and knows little about the game.

    How about we make this interesting ?

    How about it, Are you man enough, believe enough on what you say and what you write, to make these bets ? Come on Pal, Don't be Chicken, Lets do this. Lets stand by what you write and PROVE me Wrong
    Come on, seriously? I've seen enough threads this week turn into back-and-forth he-said/she-saids... if you have a comment about the thread topic make it and move on.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't read anywhere that Matt said he 100% believed those things. He was simply outlining the financial alternatives IF one/both of those things happened.

    Could Bargnani get traded before the draft? Yes. So could every other player, since none of them have no-trade clauses.

    Could Barbosa choose to re-sign or opt-out? Yes. That is why it is called a player-option.

    As far as I can tell, Arse & Matt have done good jobs laying out the various salary cap SCENARIOS. Neither of them have sworn undying allegiances to one scenario or another...

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    Maybe I'm wrong, but I didn't read anywhere that Matt said he 100% believed those things. He was simply outlining the financial alternatives IF one/both of those things happened.
    All I am saying is that what Matt writes is SO FAR from REALITY that it is not even worth mentioning and has no substance.
    The Chances that what he wrote here and we having more than 4.7 million is less than 5%. Hence I challenge him to this bet.

    If he really believes that what he is writing is a likely scenario , then he should take it. But I know he does not and THERE IS NO WAY he will accept the bet.

    At some point of time , as fans we have to start to look at the reality and see where this team is going and what is really happening. Enough of these positive Spins on Reality and Enough Day Dreaming. We are better than this fairy tales and teenage girl dream posts.

    What was represented on the FRONT PAGE, was a dosage of reality for 98% of Raptor fans. Read it, appreciate it and think about.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    All I am saying is that what Matt writes is SO FAR from REALITY that it is not even worth mentioning and has no substance.
    The Chances that what he wrote here and we having more than 4.7 million is less than 5%. Hence I challenge him to this bet.

    If he really believes that what he is writing is a likely scenario , then he should take it. But I know he does not and THERE IS NO WAY he will accept the bet.

    At some point of time , as fans we have to start to look at the reality and see where this team is going and what is really happening. Enough of these positive Spins on Reality and Enough Day Dreaming. We are better than this fairy tales and teenage girl dream posts.

    What was represented on the FRONT PAGE, was a dosage of reality for 98% of Raptor fans. Read it, appreciate it and think about.
    My last comment about this.

    The scenario discussed was reality. Whether or not that reality comes to fruition is another discussion.

    Barbosa - He is the only unknown on the roster and is the only guy who's fate isn't controlled by management, so it does make sense to look at what the salary cap situation would be like both ways

    Bargnani - Ever since he was called an "asset" by BC, there has been rampant speculation about his future on the team. Matt was just reminding people that IF Bargnani were to be traded before July 1st, his entire salary couldn't be returned in a trade due to the fact that he is a BYC player. As the player most discussed as a tradeable "asset" this week, it's good to know the true salary cap impact both if he stays and if he does get traded, before and after the July 1st deadline. Once the salary cap facts are out there, it opens the door to more meaningful discussion about those various possibilities.
    Last edited by CalgaryRapsFan; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 05:31 PM.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Says anyone who has little logic and knows little about the game. you are not presenting reality in this thread. Reality and great writting was presented by Arsenalist on the front page when he presented 4.7 million dollar number.

    How about we make this interesting ?

    1) If AB is traded by July 1st, then I will NOT post here till beginning of the season, if NOT, then you should not make even one post here for that duration

    2) If Barbosa opts out of his 8 million dollar contract, then I will NOT post here till after ALL-STAR Break next year and if he did not opt out, then you do not post here till ALL-STAR Break !!

    How about it, Are you man enough, believe enough on what you say and what you write, to make these bets ?
    Little logic and knows little about the game? Five realities were just given to you and you come back with this. As usual you skirt the issues, with me and others, only to take conversations in different directions because you cannot back up your claims or opinions.

    Here is another reality: you like Arse's post because it suits your view - which is fine. However, given there seems to be much more support on the forum for keeping Colangelo than alternatives and the number of reporters in the local and national media who have written well thought out pieces to keep him, nice work cherry picking the 'reality'. Arse's original starting point ($47M) was flawed and most certainly does not take in to consideration the state of the league.

    There is no logic or knowledge required for your proposal. I do not wish to see you stop posting here. You have some decent comments when you temper the negativity and refrain from insulting others. I'm not opposed to differing views, which you seem to be. My objections arise when facts do not back up claims or when opinions are presented as facts.

    The fact remains Bargnani could be traded or he could not; Barbosa may opt in or opt out. What does picking one scenario prove? I'm sorry but this is not professional wrestling and this is not a retirement match. The bolded red section takes your contribution to RR to a new low. This forum is not about me, or you, or Arse, or Apollo, or whoever - this is about the Raptors. Discuss the Raptors within the forum's guidelines or move on.

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    Quote Matt52 wrote: View Post
    ........................
    Just as I thought. You know how unlikely is what you suggest and hence can not even stand behind it

    It is Ok pal.

    I leave you alone with your fantasies and let you swim deeper in them. Heck, I do you one better.

    It is possible, that we might be able to get Howard in this off-season. Also, since Griffin and Davis are both rookies, then we might be even able to do a trade for these guys. With that 21.5 million in the Cap Space, we can get Lebron James.

    So here it is for you Pal, little more food for your creative mind. Future is as Rosy as it has ever been.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Just as I thought. You know how unlikely is what you suggest and hence can not even stand behind it

    It is Ok pal.

    I leave you alone with your fantasies and let you swim deeper in them. Heck, I do you one better.

    It is possible, that we might be able to get Howard in this off-season. Also, since Griffin and Davis are both rookies, then we might be even able to do a trade for these guys. With that 21.5 million in the Cap Space, we can get Lebron James.

    So here it is for you Pal, little more food for your creative mind. Future is as Rosy as it has ever been.
    The very fact you choose to ignore what I initially said

    This is all hypothetical, of course, but I think the picture is rosier than depicted in Arse's post.
    regarding the Bargnani and Barbosa situations shows a hostility which is not healthy or normal for a rational adult. The very fact the cap number appears to be incorrect already justifies the claim that the picture is rosier than depicted in Arse's post. The very fact you are attempting to argue the reality the Raps are in a better financial situation than 3/4's of the league shows a contempt and bias towards Colangelo that immediately nullifies any rational argument.


    The very fact the only thing you replied to in this post was the bolded section:

    Here is reality:

    1) I said all scenarios were hypothetical. They may or may not happen, the point is no one knows what the new CBA landscape will look like. What we do know is that TOR has $37.4M tied up in 9 players, they may have $45 tied up in 10 if Barbosa opts in, and this leaves them with less salary that 23 of the 30 teams in the league but does not take in to consideration any other possible trade that could add or subtract money from their payroll between now and June 30th.
    2) Barbosa said he was not sure if he would pick up his option. Diaw was one player who said he would. I would take things at face value. Barbosa could have an opportunity for a multi-year deal worth more money - maybe less per year but it would be more guaranteed money which he may consider more valuable at this stage of his career (28 years old). The reality is you have no idea what Barbosa will do - nor do I.
    3) Barbosa says no to $7.6M less than 5% chance? Bargnani traded less than 5% chance? Says who? Seriously, you're better than this.
    4) What Arse wrote on the front page was one perspective based on facts that were not 100% accurate. This is another that very well could have a mistake somewhere in it. Your's would be a third, but wait, you didn't reply with anything of substance - just examples of: 1) university aged girls shopping that totally brought in to question reading comprehension skills given the word hypothetical was clearly used after all these scenarios were give and 2) obscure guessing at probabilities and percentages.
    5) It very much does matter what the rest of the league looks like because if a hard cap comes in (which is one of the major things the owners with all the leverage are pushing). If this comes to pass, there will only be 6 teams with more money to spend than the Raptors. Keep in mind the owners, with all the leverage, originally tabled a proposal looking for a salary cap reduction to $45M.

    Objectivity and an open mind are very useful qualities when discussing situation and scenarios - especially situations and scenarios that are to be determined. One thing I've noticed in your posts is objectivity and an open mind are very often lacking. In the words of C&C Music Factory: "Free your mind and the rest will follow." While I am a person of strong conviction, I do listen to reason but looking at your reply, once again, there is very little reason or concrete facts offered to make me question my opinions. Arguments with a foundation of hindsight and personal opinions and emotions do very little to make a compelling counter-argument.
    shows the quality of input you have on discussion here. It is also a clear indication of what little discussion you are interested in having on these boards.


    The very fact you choose to follow this up with a bet to post or not post shows another classic case of changing subjects when the facts or realities do not suport your view - especially considering it was to refute a claim that a trade which the majority of RR members who voted think could actually happen or a player deciding to take a chance at more years and guaranteed money was an impossibility (as an aside - if you had an opportunity to take a contract for 1 year at $7.6M or a multi-year contract at $15+M which would you choose? Personally, I'd explore more guaranteed money - especially 8 years in to my career).

    The very fact you wrote this:

    The Chances that what he wrote here and we having more than 4.7 million is less than 5%. Hence I challenge him to this bet.
    without looking at reputable NBA salary sites which clearly show the starting point for the proposed money to spend on free agents is flawed shows a bias that is sad and unfortunate for a reputable Raptors discussion forum. The reality is what I wrote is 100% correct and your 5% claims are, well, poppy-cock much like most comments here.


    The fact you follow up plausible scenarios of Bargnani being traded or Barbosa opting out with ridiculous scenarios of trading for Howard, Griffin, or James shows once again that when sensible arguments are made, you turtle, change subjects, attempt to coerce personal arguments, and/or leave the thread abruptly claiming victory.


    The reality of this whole thread is you have not made one substantiated claim or logical opinion based on fact. The reality is someone offers a rational view different than your own and you go on the attack at a personal level. The reality is nothing you have wrote disproves or discredits any claim or comment Raptor-related this evening.

    It is time to shape up or ship out.

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    Quote CalgaryRapsFan wrote: View Post
    As far as I can tell, Arse & Matt have done good jobs laying out the various salary cap SCENARIOS. Neither of them have sworn undying allegiances to one scenario or another...
    I'm glad you got the point, CRF.

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    Quote slaw wrote: View Post
    I didn't really get the post on the homepage given the CBA uncertainty. No one knows what the world will look like next year. I think Matt's point is a good one, namely, regardless of whatever the new CBA requires, the Raptors are in decent shape compared to everyone else.
    I'm glad you got the point as well, slaw.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    Just as I thought. You know how unlikely is what you suggest and hence can not even stand behind it

    It is Ok pal.

    I leave you alone with your fantasies and let you swim deeper in them. Heck, I do you one better.

    It is possible, that we might be able to get Howard in this off-season. Also, since Griffin and Davis are both rookies, then we might be even able to do a trade for these guys. With that 21.5 million in the Cap Space, we can get Lebron James.

    So here it is for you Pal, little more food for your creative mind. Future is as Rosy as it has ever been.
    I gotta ask: what's the point of being pessimistic?

    Secondly, why should Matt accept your proposal? He's a well-respected poster and moderator on this site and he has responsibilities that go along with it, so him not posting until after the all-star break is not an option. He does quite a lot for this site in terms of discussion and keeping the order here, and for that, we are in his debt.

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    Quote MangoKid wrote: View Post
    I gotta ask: what's the point of being pessimistic?

    .
    What pessimism !! Just because I echo the reality that was pointed out by ONE of the BEST Writers of this site then I am a pessimist !! The real data is there in the front page for everyone to look and think about.

    You are welcome to buy what Matt is selling and I am entitled to point out HOW UNLIKELY are the scenarios that Matt is proposing !!! Just because the guy does alot for the site , it does not allow him to come out and post Rubbish like this and expect us to buy it !!! This site deserves better than this. This site deserve conversation about real topics. This thread and scenarios is as unlikely to happen as a straight trade of Evans for Howard !! you want to disscuss such a trade with Matt, be my guest but don't get upset if some of us raise objection to such a childish topics. At the end, this is what freedom of speech is all about.

    Anything can happen fro NOW till the start of the next season BUT some stuff are more likely to happen than Others. I said it earlier, that the chance that AB is traded before July 1st or Barbosa says NO to 8 million on the table on the eve of the lock down is less than 5%.

    Matt decided to disagree and ASK him to put his MONEY where his mouth is. However, he does not have ANY CONFIDENT on what he writes because He knows that they are all his fantasy.

    That is fine as well and I give him little dream subject about Howard, Griffen and the 21.5 million ( I mean seriously, how ridiculous that number is , going from 4.7 to 21.5 ) that can get him Lebron.

    Anyway, enough time wasted on this UNREALISTIC scenario that is proposed by MATT.
    Last edited by Raptor4Ever; Thu Apr 21st, 2011 at 08:50 PM.

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    Quote Raptor4Ever wrote: View Post
    What pessimism !! Just because I echo the reality that was pointed out by ONE of the BEST Writers of this site then I am a pessimist !! The real data is there in the front page for everyone to look and think about.

    You are buy what Matt is cooking and I am entitled to point out the scenarios that Matt is describing HOW UNLIKELY they are !!!

    Anything can happen fro NOW till the start of the next season BUT some stuff are more likely to happen than Others. I said it earlier, that the chance that AB is traded before July 1st or Barbosa says NO to 8 million on the table on the eve of the lock down is less than 5%.

    Matt decided to disagree and ASK him to put his MONEY where his mouth is. However, he does not have ANY CONFIDENT on what he writes because He knows that they are all his fantasy.

    That is fine as well and I give him little dream subject about Howard, Griffen and the 21.5 million ( I mean seriously, how ridiculous that number is , going from 4.7 to 21.5 ) that can get him Lebron.

    Anyway, enough time wasted on this UNREALISTIC scenario that is proposed by MATT.
    Like I've said before, why should be take on the terms of your bet? That's foolish. You want to do an avatar bet with him, go right ahead, but not posting until after the all-star break? That's a bit ambitious.

    Could Bargnani be traded before July 1? Absolutely. Anyone can get dealt at any given time. However, in my opinion, I believe that it's more unlikely because he's still on a BYC and he has a reasonable contract. We'd be getting 60 cents to the dollar in terms of his value.

    Could Barbosa turn down 8 million? Sure. Richard Jefferson left over 14 million on the table last season to sign something long term, so it's very possible he goes the same route.

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